Talk:T-80

T-80 is not derived from the T-72

The question of why Western analysts might be confused about why the Russians 'chose to assign it a different model designation' is a bizarre one. It seems to be rooted in a poor understanding of Russian tanks and their histories. The T-80 and T-72 are mechanically very different tanks, in a lot of ways; they are also designed from square one by completely different design bureaus (Morozov as opposed to Nizhny Tagil) and really are only similar in general appearance. The T-80 is based on the T-64, which was a competing design at the time the T-72 was produced. The T-64 was Morozov's offering, and was initially intended to be Russia's primary MBT, while the T-72 was intended to be mainly produced for export partners and east-bloc satellite states. The T-72 is mechanically simpler and easier to service in the field, while it is not as well protected, and the manufacturing process is correspondingly simpler.

This was enough of an advantage in the long term that the tank most produced was the T-72; obviously it better fit the Soviet ideal of quantity over quality; while the T-64 was the superior tank, it was more expensive, and as such was not produced as much, and was never exported.

The T-64's story continues in the T-80. Morozov extrapolated on the design, including a 1500hp gas turbine engine. This gave the tank a stunning power-to-weight ratio and made it easily the most mobile tank in the world (where it remains today, according to most experts). This is because while there other tanks which boast similar power (the M1 series has a 1500hp gas turbine as well, where it weigs in at 70 tons), the Russian tanks are almost half the size and weight (hence the similarity in their looks; it's the low profile and the national tank design ethic, pan shaped turrets, sharp hull fronts and low profiles).

The T-80's main disadvantages are common to all Russian tanks, and as such, it might be said the Russians are 'desperate' to find export partners for it. . . which isn't true; the Ukranians are, and they have been moderately successful, while the Russians are 'desperate' to sell the T-90, at which they have also been successful.

These disadvantages are in the small size of the tank (about 1/2 to 3/4 that of the M1, depending on the aspect). the crew quarters are cramped and difficult to work in. The ammunition is stored (except in more modern versions like Oplot and Black Eagle) below the crew inside the crew compartment in the autoloader carousel, which means that when the tank is penetrated, the ammo cooks off, killing the crew and blowing the turret into the air. Due to the small turret, it is impossible to de-elevate the gun more than a few degrees when the tank is in defilade, and so the tank has a hard time firing from hull-down positions, though in newer versions like Oplot and Black Eagle, this is mitigated as well with entirely new turrets.

These disadvantages are endemic to Russian tank design, nearly all Russian tanks have them, wich is to say that the only additional disadvantage to the T-80 series might be its mechanical complexity, but of course, while that was an issue in the days of the T-64's usurpation by the T-72, it is less so today, except as concerns potential third-world export partners (most of whom cannot afford T-80s anyway; and in any case, the most recent (and even more expensive) prototypes have solved all of these problems and in many ways are similar to current Western offerings, excepting that they are considerably smaller.

Should be Soviet, not Russian

"russian" is quiet wrong. it should be "soviet" --zeno 23:36, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Not comparable to Western offerings?

In what way are the T-84U or T-84-120 not comparable to the newest Western offerings? They seem to be at least in the same category, if not in some ways superior, in terms of firepower, mobility, protection, and technology. —Michael Z. 15:50, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

They lack fire control systems, armour, and battlefield information systems of a comparable standard. Dan100 19:39, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Fire control and information systems aren't really a limiting factor of a tank's design; Ukrainian tanks are being fitted with French fire control systems, and upgrades are always possible, although most tanks in service probably don't have the same standard of electronics equipment as many western countries. Russia has produced some battlefield countermeasures systems that the west doesn't have.

It's difficult to find factual material about armour, but I don't think I've read anywhere that the T-80's armour is inferior. Do you know of any good sources?

—Michael Z. 21:08, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

OK, after having a good read I'd agree that their armour is quite probably comparable. As you say some T-80s have comparable firecontrol systems (but do any have BDIS as in the latest M1s?). I'd contend these systems are critical; you can have the best gun in the world but it doesn't mean squat if you can't hit the enemy, but he can hit you.

However I don't think the line "Current versions of the T-80 are comparable to the newest Western offerings" - which is inherently POV without an objective source - needs be in the article. Nowhere in the M1 or Challenger articles does it say they are superior to the T-80. Nor does the T-80 article imply inferiority. Yes it has disadvantages, but all tanks do. The Challenger is under-powered, the M1 is excessively heavy (witness the bridge collapse in Iraq). Both are so large that they are hard to operate in urban areas. Dan100 11:50, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

True. It may be valuable to cite real performance comparisons in battle or in competitions for any tanks, but this kind of information is hard to come by.

There's some discussion here and in T-72 that could be rewritten a bit and become a good article on Soviet main battle tank design. There's a strong theme starting with the BT tanks and T-34 that carries through to the latest. Comparisons with western tanks will be inevitable. —Michael Z. 22:03, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

I think that would make a good article, go for it! It would be interesting to explore the different tactical philosophies that led to the Soviets making the design choices (compared to the West) they did, too. I seem to remember something about Soviet tanks being more likely to be used offensively so are more mobile by having a lower weight, but sacrifice armour to achieve that. Of course, being more mobile, they're then harder to hit in the first place. Dan100 00:21, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

IIRC, that line was in this article originally becuase this is an expansion on and response to a poorly researched and *heavily* POV version of the article which did little but describe the T-80 as something of a failure (which it most certainly is not).

I don't believe that line is necessary, but I also don't believe the current versions of the T-80U and T-84 (especially the 120 versions) lack comparable technology. In many ways their technology is superior. The Russians and Ukranians are certainly leagues ahead in therms of active protection systems, like Shtora, Arena, and Drozd. I would, however, be inclined to think that a line like that might dissuade the less knowledgeable Western readers from assuming its inferiority (as they more-often-than-not tend to do). It may well be POV, but I believe it is true.

I think there's also the question of what they are designed to do. I believe the M1 is designed almost exclusively as an anti-armour system (witness the systems the M60 tank had which made it a good platform to integrate with infantry that the M1 lacks such as the external telephone(s), also the fact that the M1 is rather dangerous to be standing near). I don't think M1s usually carry many non-AP rounds. Compare this to Soviet/Russian tanks which are heavily into counter-infantry - they typically carry a lot more anti-personnel rounds (I think more than half their standard loads), and I think this is one of the reasons they didn't have the sophisticated fire control systems of some other tanks. ERA is also especially useful against infantry-type weapons - I don't think they'll do much against a sabot round. They do have some interesting anti-armour capabilities such as the emphasis on being able to fire anti-tank missiles (once again, something the M551 and M60A2 had which the M1 doesn't). I'd say these reasons have a lot to do with the differences between Soviet and Western tanks, and the advantages/disadvantages of both. I'd agree that the T80 is in the same league as the M1, Challenger, Leopard 2, etc. It's a little different than those but still has a lot in common. And yes I do think there is a quantity vs. quality factor involved as well. Nvinen 12:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any specific sources to back this opinion up, but I think this kind of difference was more pronounced during the Cold War than it is now. The Soviet mechanized strategy was based on their WWII experience and their production economy, technology, and level of troop training, and the presumed offensive nature of a theoretical conflict in Europe (regardless of who would start it, the USSR would win it by overrunning Europe quickly, Blitzkrieg-style). To sum it up: lots of highly mobile tanks used in the assault, using company fire and offensive smoke projectors, followed up closely by mechanized infantry. Able to exploit openings created by NBC weapons. Entire regiment-sized units are expendable; they potentially waste themselves breaking through any concerted defences so successive units can keep advancing, and their remaining assets are pulled back to equip newly formed units.

Now that Russia and Ukraine are both trying to sell tanks on the open market, and have a high level of technology, this difference from western tank tactics is less important, although their heritage is still evident. Do we really know how much AP and HE they carry today? They are equipping their tanks with the latest fire-control systems and 120 mm guns to try to compete with NATO products. Granted, a T-84 is probably in a market niche that's much cheaper than an M-1 or Leopard-2, but it wants to be considered a valid replacement for it. Heck, the T-84 even has air conditioning for the crew!

Note that the latest Kontakt-5 ERA and Arena (active countermeasures system) are reputed to have some effect against KE penetrators. —Michael Z. 2005-02-6 16:00 Z

I was just pointing out the heritage, not the current configuration. I'm sure the AP/HE load is up to the customer, but the fact that the emphasis was originally on HE suggests that the tank design was originally more heavily biased toward anti-infantry roles than the current western tanks are. That isn't to say they can't or didn't adapt them well to the anti-armour role, or that they're bad at it. The small size certainly helps, they're harder to hit. In the past, T-72/T-80 class tanks, however, haven't shown very good survivability if and when they are hit, but for all I know that's changed dramatically since they sold their tanks to countries like Iraq, who probably don't know how to use them anyway.

My personal opinion is that the USSR bankrupted themselves building weapons, which suggests that they have lots of good weapons technology to sell. They certainly make good SAMs and jet aircraft and I've no doubt they have performed similar miracles with their tanks that they have with those (look at how much more advanced the new export MiG-29s and Su-27/30/33s are than the originals, or how much they've upgraded the SA-10 over the last 20 years). Like I said I think they're competative with current western designs, but optimised for different roles. However I think almost anyone could make good use of suitable equipped Russian tanks. Basically if you pay the Russians enough (and you get a really good deal for what you do pay), they'll make you some world-class weapons, the results of their fundamentally good cold-war designs and modern technology.

Interesting that you say ERA is useful against KE penetrators. I wonder how much. I'll read up on it. Also, I'm not aware of a T-84, I take it it's related to a T-80? What about the T-90 and its successors?

Hmm, after re-reading what you said, it seems we agree to a large extent.

Nvinen 16:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yup—we should start a club.

The T-84 is the latest Ukrainian development of T-80 and T-64 (while the T-90 is an advanced T-72 with some T-80 features). A main design objective was to make Ukraine's arms industry independent of Russia's, after resulting difficulties in fulfilling the Pakistan contract for T-80s. The T-84's outstanding feature is the 26 or 27 hp/t power to weight ratio, compared to T-90's 18 to 20 hp/t. They are also supposed to perform well in hot climates (hence the air conditioning).

I think the latest versions of all of these tanks have tried to improve crew survivability by incorporating blow-out ammunition compartments, à la M1, but I can't remember if that feature is in production. I have no idea how effective ERA is against KE, just repeating what I've read. —Michael Z. 2005-02-6 17:25 Z

I'm reading about it now, from what I can tell the Kontakt-5 is quite effective against penetrating rods to the extent that I think it would likely increase the average number of hits the equipped tanks could take from a NATO AP round from 1 up to maybe 2 or 3. That's a significant improvement and well worth it, but I don't think it's going to win the battle for you.

Really, I'm not sure what role tanks are going to play in the future. I doubt there will be many tank vs. tank battles. The best features of a modern tank are those which help integrate it with the rest of your force - sensors, communications, etc. For example, I hear that we (Australia) are buying some new tanks. My immediate reaction is: "why?". What are we going to do with them? Anybody who's going to be facing them will have to cross some fairly large stretches of water and then desert. Hell, they're going to face bigger problems with logistics than we can make for them with a handful of tanks. I'd spend the money on better air-to-surface missiles for long-range aircraft personally :)

I think what I'm really saying is that pretty much any modern tank will do the job, T-84 included, as long as it's suitably well integrated into your armed forces. I'd be happy with a statement in the article mentioning that the T-80/84 are marketed competatively with Abrahms, Leopard 2, etc.—I'm pretty sure that's entirely true but you'd have to check around a bit. Nvinen 17:44, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting:

"Prior to Kontakt-5, Russian ERA was effectively useless against KE long rods; Kontakt-5 was an attempt to balance the effects to defeat both threats."

"Perversely, this seems to work best with a narrow range of penetrator shapes/sizes, and both shorter/wider and longer/narrower darts seem to work better against ERA. The A1, A2, and E3 versions of the M829 120mm KE projectile played with projectile dimentions to try and defeat Kontakt-5 (among other changes), though the details are somewhat classified."

This makes a somewhat interesting read

Nvinen 17:51, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Big problem regarding T-80s though... In an Abrams or Challenger II, the ammo is stored in specialized compartments, so that if it blows, it blows up and away from the tank. In the Merkava, the ammo is stored in fireproof containers. However, in a T-80, the ammo is stored in the hull, so a hit is more likely to be fatal (cook-off effects).

he Ukrainian T-84-120 and possibly the Russian Black eagle tank, both prototypes meant for the export market, incorporate a turret bustle with separate blow-out ammunition compartment. I don't know if any production models do, though. —Michael Z. 2006-02-20 01:37 Z The Ukrainian T-84 Oplot in service on a small scale, as well as the Ukrainian T-84-120 Yatagan and Russian Black eagle tank prototypes incorporate a turret bustle with separate blow-out ammunition compartment.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-15 16:27 Z

I think it is likely that the fire control systems, as well as the T-80's main gun, are somewhat behind the times. I don't have specific information on the fire control, but the gun is a further development of the gun that the T-80 came to the market with five years before the M1A1 debuted. As such, I don't think the T-80 is an obsolete design. It was very modern when it was introduced, and it probably never was produced to fight a Western tank 1-on-1. However, the poor financial situation in Russia means that it has not received upgrades to the same standard as Western tanks. The M1A1-M1A2 has had its main gun replaced with something better, it's had a complete armor upgrade, and it's had its electronics worked over numerous times. We know the Russians haven't introduced a radically new gun. They have upgraded their ERA armor which may be quite effective, but as far as I know ERA hasn't been tested under combat conditions. So, the T-80 would probably be a formidable opponent with a few upgrade packages a-la the M1A2 or the Leopard2. The Ukrainian T-84 for Turkey mounts a new 120mm, so that might be the kind of change that would make it really competitive. The feature that all tanks of the T-80 and T-90 variety share, the capability to fire ATGMs from the main barrel, is one thing that is seldom mentioned in comparisons. The ATGMs have a range of 5km max and it'd be wise to assume they can do serious damage. 203.45.85.74 05:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)Max

Armor

Feel free to dispute my statements. I am by no means an expert, but have read extensively on the subject.

Kontakt-5 had stopped an US sabbot round, but note the round defeated was an M289, not M289A1, A2, or A3, all of them designed for heavier firepower against Kontakt/projected future Russian explosive reactive armor, and A3 is speculated to be able to penetrate approximately 1000mm RHAe (Rolled Homogenous Armor Equivalent)in 1km, which is enough to kill any modern tank at that distance.

The M1 Abrams' armor, in its modern configurations (A2 and SEP), is regraded to be superior to current generation of Russian tanks by a wide margin by the experts to whose opinion I have access to. Paul Lakowski (an naval armor engineer and tank sim designer) and a former US Army Master Gunnery Sergeant (11 Cav, gunner and commander) I had the pleasure to converse with both concurred with that opinion. The former's knowledge is purely speculative, but the later had access to classified information. It is based on these information that I deem M1 series superior in quality to Russian tanks.

New information: Comparing the estimations of Vasiliy Fofanov (a Russian expert) to Lakowski's, the most advanced Russian armor are about 100mm RHA behind the western stuff. Not a wide margin, but a significant one.

-Jonathan Chin

Strange how people can look at the same thing and see quite different things :o). This is what I would say about it:

1. All penetrators have their performance reduced to a lesser or greater degree by Kontakt-5; the difference is, obviously, quite relative.
2. A thousand millimetres of RHAE is not enough to consistently defeat the frontal armour of the M1, Leopard 2A5/6 or Challenger 2 in their heavy configuration, unless you are satisfied with a consistency of 0.5% per hit.
3. That 100 mm gap is between a Russian tank with Kontakt-5 and a M1 from 2003 without any ERA. That doesn't show the extent of the technology gap; it merely shows the M1 doesn't need ERA :o).
4. Apart from the quality, look at the relative quantity of the armour component of total weight.

--MWAK 15:25, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Western tank turrets often have a boxy angle shape which is not as strong as a dome,the Russian turrets are stronger because of being a dome,so the turret armour atlest doesnt have to be as thick. Dudtz1/10/06 7:16 PM EST

In itself it's true that, all other things being equal, a turret without welds is stronger than a turret with. Weld rims are about 20% weaker. The overall difference is very minor though and more than offset by the fact cast steel is softer than rolled or forged steel; also quality control with cast turrets is notoriously difficult. Cast turrets can be optimised in shape to maximise deflection; but the T-62 was the last Soviet tank to be designed thus. However the filled-in turrets of the later tanks were cheap to produce and had low maintenance costs compared to western designs — the quality problems only worsened though.--MWAK 07:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the T-72, T-64, and T-80 all had cast turrets, with composite armour incorporated into certain version (I don't know if it is inside, outside or sandwiched in the turret casting). Some of the last Ukrainian T-80UDs sent to Pakistan, the T-84 and T-84-120, and I think the Russian T-90 were the first Soviet-legacy tanks to have welded turrets.

Purely speculation, but I think the additional weakness of weld joints is probably insignificant compared to the additional protection of the composite armour of modern tanks. —Michael Z. 2006-02-08 18:48 Z

This is certainly true. The welded turret sections of western tanks are basically containers to hold the modules, so the weaknesses are negligible. On the other hand the modules themselves may have welds, although good CMC's shouldn't have welded matrices. To avoid a possible misunderstanding: I wasn't claiming the T-62 was the last Soviet tank with a cast turret, but the last tank with a cast turret optimised for deflection :o)--MWAK 10:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

What does "CMC" stand for? —Michael Z. 2006-02-09 15:13 Z

Ceramic Matrix Composite: a (sometimes hexagon honeycomb) matrix with the ceramic tiles inserted. If the matrix is made of a metal (there are also ceramic matrices) it should preferably be of one piece with the holes cut out. It's bad enough multiple hits will crack the tiles themselves; a welded matrix might shatter in its entirety — also a very good reason, in my opinion, not to use ceramic matrices for heavy armour :o). The Soviet system had a better multiple hit "capability", obviously having a better plasticity.

I'm not an expert in that field, but the shape of the turret is very important. It is known that a dome turret is more likely to deflects the shots. It's the same principle with sloped armor. The box turrets are less sloped so the shells are less likely to be deflected. Secondly, it is true that the soviet modern tanks have less passive armor than the western one. They have replaced it by active armor protection like ERA and missiles jamming systems. There are two reasons to explain this. First, after the Yom Kippur war, the soviets analysed casualties for both sides. It resulted that 50% of the tanks were knocked out by anti-tank missiles and rockets, 25% by aircrafts attacks and 25% by tank firing. They concluded that the main adversary of the main battle tank is now the ATGM. Missiles use HEAT warhead and passive armor is not very efficient to stop them so they used ERA because it is probably the best way to be protected against those types of warhead. Beside of this, they developped the shtora system to jam the guided-missiles and the ARENA system to destroy them in flight and I have seen a very amazing video where you can see the ARENA in action and it's very efficient.

At the other side, the Western's designers think that the main enemy of the MBTs are other MBTs. So they continue to build tanks with heavy passive armor and little anti-missiles protections. Personnally, I think it's an error, but the western countries seem to be conservative on this subject.

Finally I would say that the newest T-84, T-90 and Black Eagle have the same capabilities than the western tanks. They have computarized fire control systems, great armor protection (around 1000mm with ERA), very good guns that are capable to launch ATGM from the barrel (which enable them to hit an enemy tank at a range of 5000m when a tank gun is not accurate beyond 1500-2000m (and this include the famous Abrams)) and have very advanced anti-missiles systems. They just have different doctrine of use and construction. Kovlovsky 20:01 30 april 2006

Actually, the M1 is able to hit tank sized targets beyond 3500 meters with APFSDS with 80%+ hit probability. However by then the penetration has diminished so greatly that flank and rear hits are they only way to take out a t-72/80/90. And from what ive seen the oficial penetration for the M289A3 is 920mm RHAe at point blank

I wonder how 3 M1 Abrams would do against three BMP-3s or 3 BTR-90s. Although the BMP-3 and the BTR-90 have thin armour compared to the abrams,their offensive capabilities are very good. Dudtz 9/12/06 9:33 PM EST

This whole discussion is like "would Batman beat Aquaman in a fight?", or "would brass knuckles beat a switchblade knife?". Military organizations fight each other in battle, that is, groups of trained soldiers, equipped with weapons and vehicles, in particular situations. Individual vehicles in isolation cannot be compared like rock-paper-scissors.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-13 16:21 Z

You don't think there could be a 3 on 3 fight? What if both groups of 3 were used to scout ahead,and they met eachother? Dudtz 6/17/06 8:03 PM EST

I'm saying that a thousand other factors affect a battle. Speculating about which vehicles would win is useless. Anyway, no offence, but let's work on the encyclopedia and conduct the fan-forum chat elsewhere.

The tanks would win.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-18 03:48 Z

You can talk about it on my talk page. Dudtz 9/19/06 6:11 PM EST

Inappropriate merger ?

This article seem to be inappropriately merged with the Magical girls article , I may be no expert but I fail to see the similarities. This article should be reverted back to it’s per merger froum.

T-80 as a "myth"

I remember reading several articles in the late 80's and early 90's wherein several Western "experts" on Soviet military technology said that the T-80 was a "myth," and the tank in question was nothing more than a T-72 with different armor. I specifically recall that comment from Popular Mechanics, but it seems to me that I read that in several other books and articles as well. Now, obviously these supposed experts have been proven wrong, please don't misunderstand, but does anyone else remember this? I find it interesting how well the Soviet Union managed to keep secrets, not just with this tank but in other areas, as well.--Raulpascal 15:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The T-72B was misidentified as "T-80" when it was first seen by the West, adding to the confusion. It's not necessarily that the experts were so stupid, it's just that they had to guess at the name when all they had was a picture. When it was realized that this was a T-72, a debate started about whether the "T-80" existed. The T-64 and T-80 were only issued to a few units, and not exported, so information about them was very hard to come by.

Popular sources weren't very good at interpreting such information, so confusing reports kept being published when the information was obsolete.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-15 16:22 Z

Change the photo!

The tank on photo on page is not a T-80BV - it`s not even T-80. Looks like it`s just a heavy camouflaged T-72. Note that this "T-80" stand in american museum.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vulkan Raven (talk • contribs) .

The tank in the lead photo has no exhaust on the left side, and its road wheels have the uneven spacing of a T-64 or T-80. It looks like it has had some non-standard fender repairs. But now that you mention it, I think the searchlight on the tank's left-hand side of the gun may indicate that it is a T-64—or is the photo reversed left-to-right?

The second photo definitely looks like a T-80 to me (same tank, compare, compare 3rd photo). No side exhaust, forward-facing machine gun, unevenly-spaced road wheels.

American museum: how is that relevant? —Michael Z. 2006-11-24 19:33 Z

After a closer look, I think the first photo is of a T-80, but flipped left-to-right. It appears that the commander's hatch is on the near side (tank's left), but all of the recent Soviet tanks have the hatch on the tank's right. —Michael Z. 2006-11-24 19:39 Z

Just look at real T-80BV:

File:T80BV 2.jpg

I think the tank on the lead photo is a fake but better than british one:

File:9e2ee5505c06f78ddcf9e39297a9346b.jpg

What makes you think the lead photo is fake?

What is the source of your second photo? Indeed, that one is weird. —Michael Z. 2006-11-25 15:01 Z

Myth of poorly armoured soviet tanks

I think there is big myth about soviet tanks - everbody look on their weight, but don`t look on their crew number and compartment volume - if you compare, how many weight of armor it is necessary on each member of crew, will be found out that soviet tanks will win - they just do not present loader, his work is carried out with much more compact automatic loading device, and the loader borrows most of the crew compartment volume - that means that 46 tonn T-80U is better protected then 59 tonn M1A1HA.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vulkan Raven (talk • contribs) .

I agree with you; the myth is promulgated by the crappy old T-72s that the Americans encountered in Iraq. But that just means that it is hard to compare a T-80 to an M1: they are definitely different, but what evidence is there that a T-80's armour is better than the M1's? —Michael Z. 2006-11-24 19:35 Z

Simply because of factor of weight of the reservation on each member of crew (notice - that "active" ERA has the best factor "weight-efficiency" than the passive armor). Could be that new M1A2 has a better armor then newest russian tanks - but look at his weight - more than 63 tonnes!

That is an advantage of reactive armour. It is not evidence that the T-80's overall protection is better, or worse, than the M1's. —Michael Z. 2007-02-18 16:33 Z

T-80UM2 and Black Eagle

The "Models" section states that the T-80UM2 and the "Black Eagle" are the same tank - This has to be a mistake.

I am almost certain the T-80UM2 is just an upgraded T-80 and retains a relatively similiar appearance, the Black Eagle article has a picture which looks almost nothing like the T-80. I think the mistake should be cleared up, but I don't want to do it myself because I am not sure what should actually be put there in the T-80UM2 section.

--CGBeebe 05:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Big mistake made by western journalists. The T-80UM2 is just the T-80UM with the Drozd-2 active protection system, and thus similar to T-80UM1 Bars. The Black Eagle never was "T-80", it was Obyekt 640.

That's a recent change, and Zaloga (2000) agrees with you. I'll restore it. (But the first Black Eagle shown was just a T-80 with a mock-up turret.)~~

Reactive armor can't be looked at the same way conventional armor is when it comes to the amount of protection provided.

T-80AT

Can someone cite a published source about the T-80AT, or even a news article? An anonymous posting in an online forum is not a sufficient reference, even though the poster sounds very knowledgeable. —Michael Z. 2007-02-18 17:10 Z

• Damn, on english - just some "anonymous posting in an online forum". On russian - here you go: BTVTnarod.ru

Doesn't meet verifiability guidelines, so I removed it. Although the forum links to some nice technical drawings, the source of the information is not cited anywhere. —Michael Z. 2007-03-09 20:19 Z

Most mobile tank

This gave the tank a high power-to-weight ratio and made it easily the most mobile tank in the world, albeit with acute range problems, since the turbine consumes fuel very rapidly, even when the engine idles.

I'm restoring this removed sentence, with the added qualifier "in service". Although BT tanks had a good highway speed in wheeled mode, they weren't as mobile as a modern main battle tank. And they haven't been in service for 60 years or so. I can't find any references for HIMAG, but I don't think that it is a tank currently in service. —Michael Z. 2007-03-09 20:22 Z

The High Mobility Agility(HiMAg) was an experimental tank from USA,with road speeds in the 50 some mph range,it had a 75mm Ares auto cannon. --Dudtz 22:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

T-80 or T-90

Are the later T-80s such as the T-80UM1 superior to the T-90 tanks? A guy I talked to recently insisted that the T-90s were cheap poor designs compared to the newer T-80s.

I have also heard from other sources that the T-90 (based off of the T-72) is or was planned to be deployed in a similar manner to the T-72. This means the T-90 would make up most armored units and be exported while the latest T-80s would be reserved for elite units. Does anyone know if this is true? --68.118.179.186 04:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The T-90 is an advanced T-72: it is the lower-technology tank, and I've read somewhere that some in the Russian army were disappointed that the T-80 was not chosen. Whether it is really inferior is hard to say, because great things have been done with low-technology tanks (e.g., the T-34).

I'm not sure how the T-80 is deployed nowadays. It is considered the superior vehicle, but these tanks are aging while brand new T-90 tanks are being put into service. —Michael Z. 2007-06-20 05:23 Z

Exported to South Korea?

I don't know if this is true. I would have thought that the tank would have been exported to North Korea. Can anyone clear this up for me? --Wil101 03:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

While there were some reports North Korea but a few modern tanks from Russia I don't know if those were T-90s. --68.118.179.186 15:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

South Korea "bought" 80 T-80Us in exchange for nullification of Russian debts to South Korea made during the existence of USSR.

North Korea bought 1 T-90S for study to upgrade their M-2002 tank. - SuperTank17 09:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

T-80 (Ob.219sp2) with Kobra ???

The text mentions that the early T-80 is capable of launching the "Kobra" missile but this is not correct, according to several Russian sources. Simply put: the T-80 (Ob.219sp2) had the turret of the T-64A and the T-80B (Ob.219R) had the turret of the T-64B, so only the B model is fitted with the 9K112 system. However, some early T-80's were later upgraded to more or less B standard. dendirrek (talk) 11:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)