Talk:Archaeology and the Book of Mormon

Early 2004 discussion

The info on genetics may be more suited to an article such as "Anthropology and the Book of Mormon" although I'm not sure genetics should be relegated to anthropologists as if they really have a suitable background to deal with that subject (contrary to what Tom Murphy may think he knows). B 22:38, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)

For that matter the section on Quetzalcoatl may be suited to some other article. Is that section more to do with archeology or some sub-discipline of anthropology? Or maybe this entire article should be re-named something like "Anthropology, Archeology and the Book of Mormon". B 22:42, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the DNA research and the Quetzalcoatl research are technically anthropology in this context. These studies relate to determining history independently of written records, which is archaeology. As I understand physical anthropology, it is the study of how humans have changed through evolution. The BoM DNA studies are not concerned so much with how Native Americans have changed genetically as they are in determining whether DNA shows they have a Hebrew history. And while Quetzalcoatl may be interesting to cultural anthropologists, the real question here is whether there is archeological evidence that quetzalcoatl was historically Jesus Christ. COGDEN 00:11, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

To state that "physical anthropology is [merely] the study of how humans have changed through evolution", and that the "BoM DNA studies are not concerned so much with how Native Americans have changed genetically" misconstrues the issue. Physical anthropology is much broader than suggested, and "determining whether DNA shows [Native Americans] have a Hebrew history" is an issue informed more by molecular biology than archeology. (Thus, my sarcastic comment about Murphy.) Physical anthropology includes elements of population genetics, a study towards which molecular biology is particularly oriented. My concern is that fields like biological anthropology can be so dependent on other fields that it stretches these programs to adequately handle issues like the BoM-Indian-Hebrew-DNA issue. Presuming the genetics section is more of a biology issue and less so an anthropological issue, it should be obvious enough that it is at most an archeological issue only tangentially. Given that many or most consider that archeology is a subdiscipline of anthropology, I suggested that perhaps the article name should be broadened to "Anthropology, Archeology and the Book of Mormon" if matter such as swords and horses is to be lumped in with genetics. Otherwise, some thought need be given to spinning out articles like [metallurgy and BoM] and [zoology and BoM], etc. Quetzalcoatl legends may not be out of place in this article, but the issue as to whether some of the Quetzalcoatl legends were based in part upon Jesus visit to America goes beyond archeology because both it and anthropology both can be so inter-disciplinary-dependent. B 04:15, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. I wish there were some word that was an elegant superset of both archeology and anthropology. Maybe the thing to do would be to have this Archaeology and the Book of Mormon article cover things more archaeology than anthropology, and then spin off an Anthropology and the Book of Mormon article to cover things more anthropology than archaeology, and do lots of cross-linking. And if there are things like Quetzalcoatl that don't fit well in one or the other, they can have their own articles, or split the discussion between archaeology and anthropology. COGDEN 02:22, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Name of Article

Two Things: 1) Excellent work. This page has a future now! 2) Why is it Linguistics and BofM instead of BofM Linguistics? Is is a question of distinction of meaning or of Wiki standards? Hawstom 06:52, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think that Linguistics and the BofM is potentially a bit broader than BofM Linguistics. It could cover any intersection between language studies and the BofM, including info on what the BofM has to say on the topic of linguistics, which is quite a lot. COGDEN 02:22, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Expanding to other Articles

Is there place in Wikipedia for Book of Mormon Geography? This isn't an apologetics encyclopedia, so I'm not sure. I was thinking of adding info on Lehi's arabian journey and Mesoamerican studies, but maybe that is going too far. Hawstom 04:49, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

State of Research

The 1973 Michael Coe quote is absurd in the context of the "state of the research" I don't want to kick a hornet's nest, but I think it ought to either go or be put into a "back then, 30 years ago" context compared to the state today. Sorenson's book and numerous other studies werent' known in 1973. Again, it is simply absurd and beneath Wikipedia. Tom 05:58, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Focus of Article

A major problem with the article, and I'm not sure how to state this delicately, is that it is stuck in an old "us vs. them" paradigm. I think Book of Mormon Studies has moved beyond that. Again, I am afraid of being indelicate here, but from where I sit, the Book of Mormon believers have shifted their focus to a good old Ezra-Taft-Benson-would-be-proud serious studentship from the old one upmanship game with the skeptics, and in the process have left the old arguments in the dust. The Mormons have got their hands dusty, worn out some shoes and tires, dusted off old tomes and manuals, racked up frequent flyer miles, and come up with some decent insights into the Book of Mormon. And what do you know? At the same time they have left the skeptics in a huge cloud of dust. Is it just me, or is the argument over for anybody who has really been paying attention in the past 20 years?

I am serious about this. Does anybody care that the Bible talks about beasts we can't confirm? Does anybody claim it is a fiction because x, y, or z doesn't fit? And so similarly, once we have all read Sorenson's Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, Joseph Allen's Book on the same subject, the Lehi Journey discoveries, and on and on word for word from cover to cover, do we believe nit-picking criticisms are really about an objective attempt to demonstrate the Book of Mormon's historicity, or do we start to increasingly see the criticisms as simple stone-throwing?

I have been very patient with this article. But after spending a couple of hours with it tonight, I am disrespecting myself for pandering to old, rehashed stone-throwing. Isn't it time Book of Mormon Studies grew up?

Now that I have been indelicate, let me put on my NPOV hat again. What I propose is that we strip the article of all vestiges of controversy and proceed with a strictly "Studies" focus. If there are problems in the Book of Mormon (there always are), let us deal with them in a scholarly way, giving the book the benefit of the doubt, rather than pronouncing an "Aha!" Let us not shy from questions such as "Was Ammon really preparing horses for chariots?" But let us not continue to imply that the Book of Mormon is a story without a place, very plausibly a work of fiction. That it clearly is NOT. It is a sacred text of a major religion, and deserves serious study, at least study with a forced serious face. And I think that is the Wiki way. Tom 07:57, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I disagree that Mormon apologists have left skeptics in the dust, but I agree that the article could use a much more scholarly framework. I don't think that the mention of pre-Columbian horses and other anachronisms is nit-picking, but I don't think this article should be about whether or not there is or isn't archaeological evidence of pre-Columbian horses, etc. Rather, the article should (1) point out all the Book of Mormon's seeming anachronisms, (2) discuss how particular apologists have explained those anachronisms, (3) point out all the seeming positive archaeological consistencies, and (4) discuss how particular skeptics have explained these consistencies. COGDEN 15:41, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Maybe I am way behind on the state of research among Book of Mormon debunkers. Perhaps there are recent activities from them that could be included in this article to disabuse notions such as mine that recently the apologists have been more more serious about the BofM than have the debunkers.Tom 05:07, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't know that the focus of the article should be as you outline, COGDEN. Is that the best we can expect from an archaeology article? What should we expect and deliver in the article? Is Book of Mormon archaeology only about arguments, strife, and debate, or is there a higher aspect of pure interest that would make a better platform for an article? Tom 05:07, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree that there is a bit of a disconnect between the energy and focus of Mormon apologists and skeptics. But I don't think that this is because the apologists are winning. It's just because the two groups are no longer using the same standards of evaluation. Apologists aren't trying to justify their theories within mainstream archaeology anymore (in the sense of, for example, trying to publish their theories in peer-reviewed archaeology journals, where they would be laughed at), and skeptics don't really lend much credence to the arguments and synchronisms put forth by apologists. I don't think that a unified theory of Book of Mormon archaeology is possible anymore. COGDEN 20:02, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Apologists aren't trying to justify their theories within mainstream archaeology anymore". You mean they used to? Tom 05:33, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There are some POV problems with this article. It implies to me that mainstream archeology has uncovered evidence that specifically supports the Book of Mormon; I do not believe this is the case. In particular, the word 'plausible' is used repeatedly where it shouldn't. Plausible to whom? Martijn faassen 12:26, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Anonymous POV edits

I think the previous " Archaeology and the Book of Mormon" is obviously a work of a Mormon apologist, so I edited the whole thing. 138.202.33.102|talk July 25, 2004

Regarding 138.202.33.102's latest edits: I don't think it is fair—especially to the wikipedian community who have spent hours/days working on articles that are susceptible to NPOV issues like this article—for an anonymous editor (especially those that are seemingly newbies unfamiliar with wikipedia policy and are not likely to ever return to the article again or engage the other contributors on this article in the talk page) to come along and make significant, substantial or dramatic POV changes that don't add any significant content or usefulness. It is far too difficult and time-consuming to absorb or salvage those sorts of edits into an NPOV style when the editor who caused the problem in the first place should also fix the problem. This is how I characterize 138.202.33.102's recent edits. If 138.202.33.102 returns and engages the wikipedia community on this article, that is different, but for now these kind of thoughtless edits merit reversion without further discussion. I proffer this approach as a stop gap measure for what I see as an inherent problem/tension with wikipedia to make participation in wikipedia easy and anonymous while also making that participation responsible. If you are of a like mind, state a hearty, "Aye!" —B|Talk 23:46, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reverts are very painful, but I agree with your careful and delicate assessment. Anonymous editors need to edit as responsibly as the rest of us, and it isn't fair to expect the Wikipedia community to painstakingly salvage the pearls from a POV hack job. We love all editors, but we are not superhuman. Tom 03:45, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just my opinion

I am here to write to the Anonymous editor of this page, COGDEN, B and other Mormon church supporters.

I am a person who frequently lurk on this encyclopedia to do research on various subjects, including on Mormonism. First of all, I don't think it is ethical for the anonymous guy to copy the whole article from another website and replace the article here. (Hey, anonymous dude, you know what I am meant)

However, at the same time, I felt very uncomfortable about the idea that some Mormons use this free Encyclopedia as a tool of pro-LDS propaganda. In particularly in this article written by cogden, I felt it does not give us the whole picture about the Book of Mormon and Archaeology. In fact, his article is quite misleading. As far as I am concerned, no archaeological evidence support the Book of Mormon.

B, you said it is unfair for that guy (whoever he is) to edit your article. Well, as far as I am concerned, anyone has the right to edit any messages. Moreover, Mormons here are more than happy to edit any articles that does not give their church a good image.

This is a free encyclopedia which many people who will come here to do researchs, which include young students. Please don't take advantage of this encyclopedia to endorse your own religion. You won't be happy if someone use this place to post anti-mormonism articles. 69.105.0.3|talk July 25, 2004

69.105.0.3, rather than insult the LDS contributors here with your speculation that we are here to promote pro-LDS propaganda, your comments would be more well received without that sort of bigotry. The current article is a result of work by LDS and non-LDS alike, not just COGDEN...not even primarily by COGDEN...Your opinion that "the article is misleading" is just that: your opinion...an uninformed and wrong opinion too.

69.105.0.3, don't put words in my mouth...I didn't say only that it was merely unfair, but the manner in which he did it was unfair. Mormons can edit any articles?! Really?! A free encyclopedia for impressionable youth?! Wow, we never knew that! Any more obvious things you want to mention, sherlock?

As far as I'm concerned, 69.105.0.3, you apparantly know very little about archeological evidence relating to any scripture, not to mention a poor grasp of science and its philosophical foundations. Just because you have an opninion doesn't mean it's wise to state it especially with the bigoted, stupid remarks you made above. 69.105.0.3 as far as I'm concerned you are just another deluded promoter of bigoted-propaganda against Mormons and you have been brainwashed by your minister/church and your one-sided exposure to bigoted-propaganda against Mormonism rather than actually knowing or making friends with any Mormons and actually learning something about Mormonism from a Mormon point of view. Try expanding your narrow-mind a little bit...it will do wonders for your soul. —B|Talk 03:57, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

69.105.0.3, is there more about your concern you could share? It is harder than it first appears to understand, value, and apply the Wikipedia non-negotiable principle of Neutral Point of View. A first step is discovering that we are all guests at Wikipedia, here to lend our expertise, but not owning the web servers, nor the articles. We have to learn and follow the rules. You might find the link on NPOV helpful. Tom 03:45, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"B" Talk

Wow, Btalk, I am very surprised by your emotional and immature respond to me. First of all, you judge me when you know virtually nothing about me. How do you know I know nothing about book of Mormon and archaeology? Can you quote anything I said about this subject anywhere on this Wikipedia? Second, in fact, I always dicuss this subject with my Mormon friends. And I have to tell you that I have not seen such immature respond like you from them.

It's unfortunate that you don't recognize that it is bigoted and insulting to Mormon wikipedians to come on here and include in your first comment that: "Mormons use this free Encyclopedia as a tool of pro-LDS propaganda"; "no archaeological evidence support the Book of Mormon"; and "don't take advantage of this encyclopedia to endorse your own religion". Nor is it good idea to be condescending by pointing out the obvious to intelligent, educated Mormon-wikipedians with comments like: "anyone has the right to edit any messages"; "Mormons here are more than happy to edit any articles that does not give their church a good image"; "This is a free encyclopedia"; and "You won't be happy if someone use this place to post anti-mormonism articles." My guess is you are a teeny-bopper and you still will just not get it. Maybe when you get older you will. —B|Talk 12:41, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You said that I am "far as I'm concerned you are just another deluded promoter of bigoted-propaganda against Mormons and you have been brainwashed by your minister/church and your one-sided exposure to bigoted-propaganda against Mormonism". All I can do is to shaking my head when reading this message. You respond violently, emotionally, immaturely, and unprofessionally to a slight critic. I just don't understand how can people like you have peaceful discussion with other people.

By the way, not all people who disagree with Mormon are anti-mormon. I know this hard for you to understand. But try to learn to be broader mind. Just advice to you.

Another condescending, bigoted remark from you above. I've not suggested you are anti-Mormon; I've only stated that you are a bigot. Projecting your bigotry on me to presume that I wouldn't "understand" that "not all people who disagree with Mormon are anti-Mormon" merely shows how naive, close-minded and bigoted "you" are, not vice versa...just some advice to you. —B|Talk 12:41, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You said "is there more about your concern you could share? It is harder than it first appears to understand, value, and apply the Wikipedia non-negotiable principle of Neutral Point of View"

That is exactly the question I am going to ask you. From the previous respond you gave to me, I don't see how you apply Wikipedia's non-negotiable prinple? Before you point your fingure to me, you can look at yourself.

By the way, one of my friend who go to LDS church read your post to me, and he told me your message made him sick. User:69.105.0.3

69.105.0.3, it's not so likely that your "LDS" "friend" would be "sick" given your bigotry which leads me to conclude that you are also a liar...either that or your "friend" is not to bright. Given that you can't even separate my comments (not to mention identify what my username is) from Hawstom's I am also lead to conclude that you are even less bright than I would have first given you credit for. There's no confusing a bigot with an anti-Mormon, 69.105.0.3. I've not claimed you are anti-Mormon...just merely a bigot. —B|Talk

Hi, 69.105.0.3. Thanks for your efforts to contribute in a new environment. Actually, I ( Tom ) am the one who made the last comment above. Try to remember that we are all learning, and sometimes say things we later regret. Also know that ill-chosen words at Wikipedia never die; they hang in the air forever. Like life, Wikiness is sometimes painful, but it helps if we try to preserve a patient, forgiving spirit, and apply the principles of the Sermon on the Mount and the attributes of Charity. Please don't clam up or give up. Take some time to go to my user page ([User:Hawstom]) and ask any technical questions you might have about Wikipedia. It makes it easier on other Wikipedians if you sign up for a username, learn how to sign your name, etc. Feel free any time to drop me a note (User talk:Hawstom) "How do you do such and such?". With kindest regards, (signed with four tildes ~~~~)Tom 04:23, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC). p.s. User:B signs "B|Talk", but his nickname is just B.

By the way, seeing you here, 69.105.0.3, reminds me of several months back when I made my first clumsy Wikipedia edits and faux pas how User:Angela so gently welcomed me and made me feel like a valued contributor. Her gentle manner of teaching and pointing the way is an example to all Wikipedians. She has since been elected to the Board of Directors. That simple contact early in my Wikiness not only set the ideal for my subsequent contributions, but affected my whole life. As soon as you sign up for a username, I will copy some of her cheerful welcomes to your talk page. With kindest regards, Tom 17:09, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm suprised that anyone who has a familarity of Archeological principles can say with any amount of certainty there are or are not evidences to prove a point. The entire premise behind archeology is to discover evidence to support a hyphothesis and then put forth a theory. That is all it is. A theory. Not a "fact" as most are taught. Having been on as many digs as I have in my life, I have become well aquainted with the theoretical processes put in place by most archaeologists and firmly believe most is simple conjecture, based on our current world view. I won't rant, but would like to understand what the point of the above discussion is. If there is a dispute, lets discuss on the talk page and be specific, not vague and emotional. I have contributed to this page, and have done a lot of primary research in the area, but am open to new ideas - please share here and then let's decide how to incorporate. However, I am sick of people saying there are "no evidences" or "this proves it." For both pro-Mormon and Anti-Mormon alike, that is simply not the case. -Visorstuff 02:16, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I share the sentiment: "However, I am sick of people saying there are 'no evidences' or 'this proves it.' For both pro-Mormon and Anti-Mormon alike, that is simply not the case." The subject of this article is exactly the type of matter addressed by the "underdetermination of theories" principle in the philosophy of science. There is no conclusive proof one way or another. I should have ignored 69.105.0.3, but his condescension and bigotry were so distasteful to me, I didn't resist. —B|Talk 12:41, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. if 69.105.0.3 would like to discuss his issues, let him do so. I think significant changes should be made after he/she creates a profile so meaningful discussion can take place. Consider this an invitation. We'd like you have you on board - in a constructive, meaningful way, not the current way. I still think that page editors should read the page history before making edits to controversial pages, but I guess that is impossible to enforce. -Visorstuff 00:36, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

NPOV - A Constructive Tack

I've shared this opinion in Mormonism and Christianity, and I think it applies here as well. The article contains a lot of "Mormons and Mormon apologists," "skeptics," "many believe," etc. To clarify my standpoint on this (and why I feel so strongly about it) <grin>:

Religion is, and always will be, a top-down organization. While individual members of every religion will have their own deep-seated convictions and beliefs, the only authoritative sources for the official philosophy of a given religion are the leaders. And, in the case of every religion, not just leaders, but the leaders (in the LDS case, the First Presidency).

I believe that we are attempting to build as factually reliable an article as we can. In order to do this, I believe that all contributors must forget that there is a "Mormon perspective" at all, or even a "non-Mormon perspective." Neither is permitted to exist.

I am troubled by this statement. I don't think this is exactly what the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy has in mind. Have you read it and the tutorial? I think what can't be done is present any POV as the only. Major POVs must be presented in a neutral way. Tom 16:59, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This could be naive idealism shining through, but is there a third-party perspective that can simply provide the facts? Whether they are perceived as pro or not, facts are facts, right? Sterlingbates 17:15, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Possibly. A great challenge. Tom 16:59, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For this reason I propose a couple of structural changes without going too deeply into specifics:

1. The introduction needs to present a concrete history of Book of Mormon archeology. For example, the opening sentence, which says:

Mormon apologists and skeptics alike have long attempted to demonstrate through archaeology that The Book of Mormon is on the one hand a work of history or on the other work of fiction."

should, in my opinion, say something more like this:

The Book of Mormon contains a great deal of information relevant to the study of archeology. Commentaries concerning political, social, judicial, and economic practices are interspersed throughout the text, providing an ample reference for archeologists to pursue their studies.

The problem is, as I tend to find, that this is actually an apologetic point of view. Write something like this, and the intro will be torn to shreds by critics of Mormonism (I think). If you want to get anywhere, you have to throw everybody a bone. Not to say you can't try, though. Tom 16:59, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is it apologetic? The facts are correct, and the implication is that it works in favor of skeptics (providing an ample stick to whack the Mormons) and apologists. I'm certainly open to other ways of saying it, that was just a first attempt. Sterlingbates 17:15, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

2. The "View of Mormon apologists" could be rewritten from a more neutral standpoint. Am I going to far to suggest that the words "apologist" and "skeptic" could be removed entirely from this section? Even from the article? Archeology is inherently neutral until one undertakes to contrive an entire social structure from a single discovery.

3. Archeological support should certainly come first in my opinion. The problem is that "archeological problems" are proposals yet awaiting proof. Logically speaking, archeology cannot prove that the Nephites did not have horses, since you cannot prove a negative (who knows what's in the very next shovelful). I propose that "archeological problems" be both rewritten and relabelled to accomodate that understanding.

Again, this is probably POV and attack-prone. Tom 16:59, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That's the thing -- archeology is, according to the dictionary, "the systematic study of past human life and culture by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence, such as graves, buildings, tools, and pottery." It is not the pursuit of truth, merely the accumulation of facts. I'd be interested to see how the article on archeology and the Bible treats as-yet-undiscovered claims. It might help us out here. Sterlingbates 17:15, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(Sorry, this is a side-track.) Genetics should also point out that the Book of Mormon does not rule out the presence of other tribes that are contemporary with the Nephites on the continent. One article on the genetics debate quoted a church authority (don't recall which one) who said that similarities with the Inuit and Eskimo tribes is entirely possible for that reason.

I thought the current article did this in an understated way. Tom 16:59, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I was pretty tired when I read it, so that could be :-) Sterlingbates 17:15, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Anyway, the floor is open to discuss (or to wipe it with me :-) — Sterlingbates 09:25, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I would say go ahead and make your proposed changes once you've read these two articles: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view and Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial. There is certainly no reason not to, and the Wikipedia can only be the better for your efforts. Then you might want to check in every once in a while to help resolve any questions that may arise. And once again, thanks a million for both contributing and doing it in such a thoughtful, careful, respectful way. I hope you see the value of the Wikipedia and continue to contribute in the long term. Tom 16:57, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ahhhhh. NPOV != unbiased. That's very clarifying. I'll finish the articles then come back later. Sterlingbates 22:35, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Too many extern links within article

This article has way too many extern links within the article proper. FWIK, extern links within the article proper should only be used as cites and not as regular links (like wikilinks). Otherwise, they should be in the extern links section. I was about to fix this myself, but there are way too many for me to tackle. Perhaps a regular editor on this article might want to tackle it. Just my $.02... — Frecklefoot | Talk 00:42, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

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I agree. While I was curious to read some of the Bible passages, Book of Mormon passages etc., I think it would be best to reference them, chapter and verse within the text, and provide links to the chapter in the External Links section at the bottom. When you follow most of these links, it takes you to the beginning of the chapter, and you either have to read-through or scroll down to get to the verse(s) cited anyway. Doing otherwise is not standard Wikipedia format, and it tends to clutter the text.--Jpbrenna 03:44, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

DNA and the BOM

Anyone who does not believe in evolution can ignore this (and a great deal of other facts). Thomas Murphy and his specific contribution to the debate on the book of mormon:

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

April 2005 concerns about bias

I find this article to be extremely biased toward a pro-mormon worldview. If the article is true to actual science then the world as we knowit is turned on its head. I suggest a very critical scrubbing of this article to remove all references that infer the existence of real, hard evidence of the historicity of the BOM. Vegasbright@gmail.com

Let's see what we can do to improve the article with your help, Vegasbright. The very first and most helpful thing each of us must do it read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. That is our "absolute and non-negotiable" non-bias policy, and its meaning and implementation is a little surprising and non-intuitive, but beautiful and ingenious. I am sure with that common ground we will be able to make something great of this article. Tom Haws 19:07, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

While I agree with Hawstom, I do not read the article the same way you do, Vegasbright. I find no evidence in the article that suggests that there are "real, hard evidence of the historicity of the BOM." On the contrary, I find that the page has become a battleground for Anti-Mormons and Apologists about what is actual part of American history, and I find such phrases such as: "Because it would be nearly impossible under any conditions to prove archaeologically whether the book is historical or fictional, the book's historicity is fundamentally a matter of belief for most interested parties. Both Mormons and skeptics seem to find abundant support for their beliefs." Therefore I guess I do not see it as "Pro-Mormon" as you apparently do. Rather I find documentation. Unfortunately, most of the research has been to "prove," or find evidences rather that to "disprove" the things that you do not "believe" and disagree with.

I completely agree with you Vegasbright that there is no evidence to prove the Book of Mormon through archaeology, but rather, both Anti's, critics and Mormons alike agree that there are some things that point to support and some things that point to support against support for the Book of Mormon. This article, in my opinion does a good job in providing both sides of the arguments, with documentation, however, I'm not sure the article does what it was first designed to do. Remember that nearly as many Non-Mormons as Mormons contributed to the article, and all of the "Mormon" support is documented from both Mormon and non-Mormon research and web sites. As someone who has assisted in archaeological digs on a number of occasions (and grew up with it), I would gladly welcome from you or anyother editor some documented and sustainable objections in the article. Such objections as "no horses" in America and "no elephants (or mamoths) either," are of course unfounded and unsupported (and are provided by Anti-Mormon works rather than real research), as they were here, however, such arguments such as the various types of metalurgy in the Americas or the time the above mentioned animals lived (using carbon and potasium dating methods or rock layer dating - incidentally supports makes the above lived more recently that carbon dating support) would make great arguments, which should probably be discussed in great length, however no one seems to take the time to add it in. Perhaps you will. Please feel free to add in if you have access to the research and studies on the topic. Incidentally, I'm only aware of a handful of critical scholarly research on the topic, so your pool of research, rather than anti-Mormon speculation, is limited - even the Tanners don't really touch much on this topic. You may want to begin with University of Illinios research. The article does need it to do more what it was designed to do, and that is discuss the various arguments, rather than being an apologetic or Anti battleground article. Happy editing and hope you are able to contribute to making this page more well-rounded. -Visorstuff 00:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So there you go, Vegasbright. Two wonderful answers (a short one and a long one) inviting you to read up on the rules and the material, then dive in. Tom Haws 04:28, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Explanation on recent edits

I've edited the following for the following reasons:

• Removed "white skinned," from lead paragraph - the book also describes darker skinned and other ethnicities, not specified. It has nothing to do with the lead paragraph. Perhaps if it is a neccesary edit it could be introduced at a more appropriate location, such as a discussion of White and Dark skinned paintings found in Mexico.
• I moved around the Smithsonian myth to the cultural section. It is a good point, however, needs to be discuss in a cultural setting, not in an area discussing cattle and horses. Kept link to source document, as it is useful argument.
• I provided some additional links that show the true complexity of the DNA research, including dicussions of Mitochondial DNA, DNA research and even a discussion of the most recent common ancestor (incidentally, is a wonderful theory in itself. I think we need to show more links that support murphy's theory as well, but unfortunately that is a newer area of research, while the others are much more established.
• removed link to cult. See discussion on Talk:Cult and at User_talk:Vegasbright. It has no place in this article, is POV and an opinion.
• Statements about excommunication have been altered (and will likely be removed). This is simple not true and is a misguided comment. (I later removed them - they are inaccurate).
• Removed "while inference to the contrary is plentiful from quazi-intelectual organizations such as The Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies." As Farms does very little research compared to other organizations, and unfortunately for the author of this statement, they are well respected in many academic circles. They are niche though, which leaves them open to criticism. In addition, this is an opinion and not NPOV.
• I'm not sure I understand your comment about it being impossible "to separate belief from science and research in the LDS culture =," Can you please expand this thought in the cultural section? I don't have any problem seperating the two, hwoever, many of my scientific theories are created by my world view, the same as every other researcher. And I freely admit, my world view is largely influenced by my religion. Who's isn't. Vegasbrights obviously is, or he wouldn't make some of the edits to the article. His religious beliefs - even if they are atheism and skepticism for Mormonism - affect how he views the church and similar organizations. It is part of being human. Please clarify - perhaps I'm missing his "objective" point. -Visorstuff 04:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mitochondrial DNA research

BeeHonest - see the following studies that disagree with your recent edits:

• Highfield, R., "Europeans Colonised America in 28,000 BC," The Electronic Telegraph, Feb. 19, 2000. (Available online.)
• Morell, V., "Genes May Link Ancient Eurasians, Native Americans," Science, 280: 520 (April 24, 1998).
• Monsalve, M.V., "Mitochondrial DNA in Ancient Amerindians," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 103:423-425 (1997).
• Kolman, C.J., Sambuughin, N., and Bermingham, E., "Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Mongolian Populations and Implications for the Origin of New World Founders," Genetics, Vol. 142: 1321-34 (1996), as cited by McClellan (2003).
• McCulloch, J. Huston, "The Bat Creek Inscription: Did Judean Refugees Escape to Tennessee?" Biblical Archaeology Review, July/August 1993, pp. 46-53, 82.
• Murphy, T., "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics," in American Apocrypha, edited by Dan Vogel and Brent L. Metcalfe, Salt Lake City: Signature Books (2001).
• Forster, P., Hardin, R., Torroni, A., and Bandelt, H.-J., "Origin and Evolution of Native American mtDNA Variation: A Reappraisal," American Journal of Human Genetics, 59: 935-954 (1996).

Mitochondrial DNA research shows that Haplogroup X is found in both Israel and Native Americans. Your edits cannot be supported. -Visorstuff 05:29, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Visor, there is no haplogroup of MDNA that is common to both amerindians and israelites that supports anything close (were talking out of africa timeframe) to the BOM narrative in any form. Your insistance otherwise is unsupported. --Vegasbright 18:46, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

The timing may be unsupported by current models under re-write, but the gene traces are supported. Mitochondrial DNA analysis shows that haplogroup X is found in both Israel and the New World (Morell, 1998 - see above; Highfield, 2000 - see above ; Brown, M.D. et al., "mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link Between Europe/Western Asia and North America?" American Journal of Human Genetics, 63(6): 1852-1861 (Dec. 1998); Forster, P., Hardin, R., Torroni, A., and Bandelt, H.-J., "Origin and Evolution of Native American mtDNA Variation: A Reappraisal," American Journal of Human Genetics, 59: 935-954 (1996)).

The issue is the timing. The currently accepted estimated date of entry of haplogroup X in the New World is thousands of years before Lehi left Jerusalem. This dating estimation is based on a the currently accepted mutation rate. The other issue is that the mutation rate is in an interim period of being revised, as it has been shown that is is much slower than actually occurs in modern humans (Howell, N., Kubacka, I., and Mackey, D.A., "How Rapidly Does the Human Mitochondrial Genome Evolve?" American Journal of Human Genetics, 59(3):501-509 (Sept. 1996); Parsons, T.J. et al., "A High Observed Substitution Rate in the Human Mitochondrial DNA Control Region," Nature Genetics, 15:363-367 (April 1997); Pitman, S., "DNA Mutation Rates & Evolution," http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/dnamutationrates.html, Aug. 2003.)

Then you have issues like the Native Americans trying to "prove" their ancestry by DNA and told it is not reliable as graduate students from France who have been tested find a 14 percent Native American heritage. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7298465/

The more research there is the more questions there are on both sides, less resolves, until the timing issue is resolved, the current research isn't very valid on timeframes.

These are the type of issues that would make a good DNA and the Book of Mormon article. Not sure they belong here. -Visorstuff 19:59, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What exactly, from that impressive-looking list, "disagrees" with what portion of my recent edits? Since most of it seems unrelated, perhaps you will point out the specific (perceived) conflict. As for mtDNA haplogroup X, see this ".pdf map. And the fact that you don't support the edit doesn't mean it can't be supported, thank you. - BeeHonest 05:40, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back. I should backup a bit to explain in more detail. Statements you made such as "which conflicts with the actual DNA evidence on the ancestry of modern indigenous Americans" seems to be an absolute statement (so is "near-universal"). One of my points in the above is that there is evidence.

The second point is to your statement: "Within academic circles, there is near universal agreement that there is no pattern of migration of mitochondrial DNA corresponding to the migration of peoples claimed by the Book of Mormon." To my knowledge, only one of the above links is done by a mormon researcher, and that is Murphy. The rest are respected scholars and academicians. Therefore your statement that there is near universal disagreement is incorrect, when the above support MDNA strain migrations from the mid-east. But this is truly irrelevant to the page - we should probably delete the genetic section from this page as genetics and archeaology are two seperate fields. Anyway, I'm going to take a break - happy editing....

Welcome back, yourself. I'm quite certain we shouldn't delete the genetic section. My question is what you think conflicts with what I've said: what statements are made in any of those papers/newspaper articles that supports your contention that there is not near universal agreement that there is no pattern of migration of mitochondrial DNA corresponding to the migration of peoples claimed by the Book of Mormon? The issue is not colonization of America by Europeans, or linkage of Eurasians and Native Americans, nor Mongolians, nor mtDNA variations, but the lack of any scientific (DNA) underpinning to the belief that emigrants from Jerusalem were the founders of a people in the New World around 600 BC. - BeeHonest 06:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do think the section should be deleted and spun into its own page. It makes sense that it will become a much more independant subject in the coming years. Why do you think it should remain in this article about Archeaology? Look at similar pages such as Biblical Archaeology, etc. They do not address genetics. to address your question above, each of the articles above support my contention, that is why they were included. I think the Forster et. al. paper should be a good place to start, let alone the article on tennesse, the Electronic Telegraph article and the biblical archaeology review suport it enough.

The purpse of this article is not to convice, but to show the current research in the field. I am only aware of a few researchers addresssing this topic at any depth, many of whom I know personally. I actually think the burden of proof is on you to show "universal agreement that there is no pattern of migration" from europe/mid east. Your last sentence above does not do justice as it does not address the issue at hand. This article demonstrates scientific theories or "underpinnings" but does not offer what you belief is "proof" - which is fine, that is not the purpose here. Theory is theory. Neither of us should be here to proselytize our viewpoints (please don't think I'm referring to promotion of religion, which is equally forbidden on wikipedia), but rather discuss what can be considered accurate and factual from a scholarly point of view. This article does this. It acknowledges what is known and what is not. When a new editor comes aboard and makes absolute statements it can appear proselytory.

As I mentioned in other places, I am going to wikiholiday this page, Ive gotten too emotionally attached to my edits - so I will not respond here for a short time as is custom, but will still be active on my talk page and other areas of wikipedia. I hope you enjoy your wikipedia experience, and as an Wikipedia:Admin, I hope I have not soured your experience here. If so, I am sorry. I do hope you branch out and add to your eight page edits in other areas of your expertise. As always, other users often appreciate to know about the folks they edit with, so they would appreciate information you can add to your user page. -Visorstuff 07:35, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you decide to pursue the facts about DNA studies, I'd point you to the Rootsweb.com "GENEALOGY-DNA" mailing list. One archived note of interest wouuld be here: "There are absolutely, categorically no such DNA studies (autosomal, Y chromosome, MtDNA) that indicate even a smidgen of Jewish/Israelite ancestry for Native American tribes." - BeeHonest 19:34, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If that is a significant point of view, it should be referenced and attributed in an article together with an indication of its prevalence. Tom Haws 21:31, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Let's make sure this doesn't end up in "talk.origins" format, with opposite PoVs ending up in point, counterpoint, rebuttal ad infinitum format on the article itself. I'm not in a great position to judge the facts of the article either way, but I'm definitely concerned about the tone (in fact, in both directions). Alai 04:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tone and style

Thanks to Vegasbright for his recent contributions. A small reminder to expand abbreviations and keep the article encyclopedic in tone and style. Tom Haws 16:36, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Iron Age

Vegasbright, I am lost about the reference to iron age in the first sentence you added. Could you add an appropriate explanatory wikilink or use a different adjective that makes more clear what the introductory sentence is explaining? Thanks for your patience with me. Collaboartive encyclopedia building is a bit of a chore sometimes. Tom Haws 16:36, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Horses in America???

"Because the animals referenced are thought to have lived between 4,000 and 10,000 years ago, they typically do not fit the requirements of the Book of Mormon narrative, although some historians place the animals here as late as the first century B.C." - never in my life have I known any "historian" to place horses, camelids, or probiscideans in america in the bronze age. never. where does this information come from? -evilguest 1:15, Apr 9, 2005 (EST)

Thomas Sheridan (non-LDS western historian), in a book about the history of Arizona. Also, Dale Morgan has supported this theory. -Visorstuff 20:32, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Slater comment

This article is so POV Mormon as to be virtually useless regarding archaeology as it is understood to be a science. While it is useful to know what current LDS explanations of archaeology are the start of this should clearly point out that not a single artifact or site supporting the claim that there was for 2000 years a complex society with cities, animals and crops which left no trace whatsoever. S-Slater

Lehi's Arabian Journey

"To date, the consensus of neutral archeologists & linguists outside Mormon society is that such proof-texting and ad hoc correlative evidences are too non-specific, too non-unique, specious, and non-probative. Unlike the qualified successes in Biblical archeology showing strong evidence for some portions of that text's narrative, no modern scholar outside Mormonism views the historicity of the Book of Mormon's narrative as having any substantial probative evidence."

Please forgive me, but I doubt the accuracy of this statement. Can we get a reference for this idea of "consensus"? Or simply set me straight. Thanks. Tom Haws 15:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Tom's review and edits

This article has recently lost organization. The sections purport to be organized along Support and Problems lines. This kind of organization is useful for the Sam Spade types who come along wanting a good, impartial review of the issues. But the Metallurgy sub-section, for example, is written in a way that doesn't deliver on the promise of the headings. I am not sure what to do about this. Vegasbright, can you help figure this out? It is important that the sections not talk past each other. For example, if metallury is a problem for the Book of Mormon, we ought not to talk about evidences for it in the support section. Rather, we should discuss truthfully the problem with possible mitigating apologetic thoughts in the problems section. Likewise, if Lehi's Arabian Journey is a support for the Book of Mormon, let us discuss it in full in the Support section. For each issue, we ought to be able to frankly agree whether it is a Supportive ("We found the Liahona!") or a Problematic ("There were no written languages in America!") issue for the Book of Mormon and treat it accordingly. Tom Haws

I am making several edits to the article. Some are uncontroversial. Tom Haws 17:15, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

New World Steel

This is a Problem issue. No apologist claims to have found the Sword of Laban. Apologists merely seek to show that the problem is resolvable. I am removing these Old World references from what appears to be a New World analysis. Tom Haws

1 Nephi 4:9

...was of the most precious steel

This sword was Laban's in Jerusalem. Tom Haws

1 Nephi 16:8

...I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel...

This bow was from Jerusalem. No replacement was made in the Arabian wilderness. Tom Haws

The remaining reference should probably be expanded to show verse 14 in which Nephi makes swords after the manner of the (steel) sword of Laban. I don't know if there are any references to steel beyond Nephi himself. Does the Book of Mormon state or infer that steel was produced or used after the days of Nephi? Tom Haws 17:15, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Another problem is one of definition. As one can read from Webster's 1828 dictionary, steel was used for combinations of iron and carbon:

STEEL, n. [G.] 1. Iron combined with a small portion of carbon; iron refined and hardened, used in making instruments, and particularly useful as the material of edged tools. It is called in chemistry, carburet of iron; but this is more usually the denomination of plumbago. 2. Figuratively, weapons; particularly, offensive weapons, swords, spears and the like. ... [1]

The same is true of some of the other objections to specific words JS used in the BoM - the word had a different meaning than what is commonly thought today. Trödel|talk 21:24, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Not just any combination of iron and carbon, though: note the "small portion of carbon". That is, wrought iron isn't steel (too little carbon), but neither is cast iron (or pig iron) (too much carbon), and neither would have been referred to as such in 1828, either. But equally, it'd be wrong to think of "steel" as meaning "blast furnaces" and such like. The industrial revolution represents the, well, industrialisation of steel production, not its inception: several mediaeval and dark age cultures were able to produce steel in small quantities, that's the basis of pattern-welded swords, damask blades, Japanese swordsmithing, among various others. Whether that's literally true of the Nephites, and what's the correct level of linguistic and figurative interpretation to put on the text, is something I'm going to have to let you guys hammer (and anvil?) out. Alai 22:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Lehi's Arabian journey

It would be nice to have more specific skeptical information in this section. Lacking that, I am removing the vague statement that is currently there. Tom Haws 17:15, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Iron age

Lacking an explanation for the meaning of Iron age or a link to an appropriate wikipedia article, I am removing the iron age description as non-desriptive. Tom Haws

Pseudoscience reference

Pseudoscience has no place in an article about Archaeology. Referring to it is a poor excuse for not improving the article. I am removing the reference. Tom Haws 17:15, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent edits, Tom. Wow - I missed the steel thought completely. Excellent insight. "After the manner" is an interesting statement, and steel was avail in Jerusalem at the time. I think it is very important as you re-work this article - I'm withholding for a time still - that the editors state what is known, what is not known and what is theorized. For example, putting information about the horses in the apologetic section seems problematic. Just place it in the narritive and let the reader know the dates don't match. That's good enough for me. Same with some other "apologetic" things. State what is known and what is not and let the reader decide. -Visorstuff 18:35, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

It is pretty easy to know which subjects are favorites of the critics and which are favorites of the apologists. It is more clear to me after today how this can work. Tom Haws 22:28, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

• Critics: Horses, Steel, Population Growth, Mutual Jaredite Annihilation, Linguistic modernisms, anything that doesn't fit.
• Apologists: Lehi's journey, Mesoamerica (Olmecs, Mayas, writing), Fortification mounds, Tabasco=Bountiful Oaxaca=Desolation linguistically, any harmonious discoveries since JS.

missing locality

heres a thought, just a thought , but considering the timeline that the book of mormon speaks of, why is it then that none of the native american , (ir incan area peoples) legdends speak of a place such as the lands described in said book? surely they would have been noticed, but as far as i have researched native american mythology and oral history ( extensively, might i add, i quite enjoy that topic) i find no mention oif any lands even remotely resembling the described localities in the book of mormon. Gabrielsimon 29 June 2005 21:15 (UTC)

I'd refer you to a number of works by John Sorenson and John E. Clark and John Gee that discuss cultural remenants and references to Book of Mormon peoples by other cultures. -Visorstuff 30 June 2005 20:07 (UTC)

looked around, read what you said i should read, and none of it has anything in it, as far as i can tell that points to geographic locations that correspond wioth anything that's arond. furthermore, i have done more research into native ledgends, and nothing there either for anone contacting any people matching the lehi-its (for lack of a better term). this bodes not well for that beleif systems claims o being fact. Gabrielsimon 8 July 2005 17:50 (UTC)

Out of curiousity (and to help point you in a direction,) what did you read? -Visorstuff 8 July 2005 17:56 (UTC)

Steel revisited

Was re-reading a bunch on what was taught about steel/iron in the book of mormon. Steel or iron is mentioned a few times in the book of mormon and none were corrected by smith. Once in Ether, the rest by the Nephites. It definitely says they made IRON in the Book of Mormon Americas:

• 2 Ne. 5: 15: And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

• Jarom 1: 8: And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

• Mosiah 11: 3: And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

• Mosiah 11: 8: And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

• Ether 10: 23: And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.

Now refernces as far as steel (which is much easier to explain away than iron):

• 1 Ne. 4: 9: And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

• 1 Ne. 16: 18: And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

• 2 Ne. 5: 15: And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

• Jarom 1: 8: And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

• Ether 7: 9: Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

Re-looking at the rest of the 1828 definition of steel:

"4. Extreme hardness; as heads or hearts of steel...vt... 1. To overlay, point or edge with steel; as, to steel the point of a sword; to steel a razor; to steel an ax. 2. To make hard or extremely hard...to make insensible or obdurate..."

So, it is quite concievable that "steel" meant a weapon with a hard surface, etc.

Iron is more probematic. From the same dictionary:

IRON, n. i'urn, or i'rn. [L. ferrum, for herrum. The radical elements of this word are not easily ascertained.]

1. A metal, the hardest, most common and most useful of all the metals; of a livid whitish color inclined to gray, internally composed, to appearance, of small facets, and susceptible of a fine polish...3. Figuratively, strength; power; as a rod of iron. Dan.2. 4. Irons, plu. fetters; chains; manacles; handcuffs....

Not sure what this all means for the article, but some additions to think about. What is the Nephite definition of "iron," and is the same as ours? Will be interesting as research in this area moves forward to see the evidences on both sides. -Visorstuff 20:41, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Limhi relates the following to Ammon: (Mosiah 8:8-11)

8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.

11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates. Therefore I said unto thee: Canst thou translate?

Some logical musings:

• There was enough time between these things being exposed for the flesh to be eaten and only bones remain; buildings to collapse; hilts to be destroyed (or rendered useless); blades of steel to canker;
• There was not enough time for the brass and copper breastplates to lose their integrity.

I'm not to familiar with how the elements degrade. I know that the Status of Liberty was made of copper and that lasted for almost 100 years before needing to be reworked. I know that steel does canker with rust but that takes more than a few years to happen. I know that it would take some time for the flesh to be eaten away leaving only bones. I imagine it would only take a few years for houses constructed out of wood and plant materials to collapse.

Does this prove that the steel was iron-based? What other material like steel or iron would "canker with rust" in that time frame? Jgardner 8 July 2005 22:12 (UTC)

Every metal rusts. We, unfortunately don't know all of the factors - the climate changes, the percent of acidity or humidity in the air, or even the atmospheric makeup of the timeframe - all of which could have changed and would have affected this topic. Looking at the definition of steel above - it is quite possible tht the swords were overlayed with metal (which has been found in guatamala) and the overlay had rusted - whatever the metal is. So problematic. It is interestign that iron was taxed - as it is not considered a precious metal - which leads me to guess a few things about the civilization - 1 - iron was not in abundance, or it would not be taxed - so it was not a common substance - 2 - it may have been some sort of alloy - 3 - it could be iron as we think it today - 4 - who knows. It may be apparent that it was a weak iron it very well could have rusted like silverware does in jsut a few months.

Next - the statement "cankered with rust" denotes it is a common phrase - not a actuality of words (although i do believe it is an actuality). What I mean is the phrase "cankered with rust" is a colloquialism much like "and it came to pass" was in the nephite language - it could have been one word denoting decay, but based on degredation. I hope that makes sense - but how it is written denotes that. While I don't believe this interpretation, it needs to have a voice. We won't know for a long time on this claim. New World archeaology is too young to be definitive. -Visorstuff 8 July 2005 23:04 (UTC)

External links

Thanks to MrWhipple for organizing the external links. Sorry for adding to the pain by merging "See also" with "External links". I'm a bit concerned about deleting 2 of the links. http://utlm.org/topicalindexa.htm#Book%20of%20Mormon is a Jerald and Sandra Tanner link. No matter what you may think of these two, they are major contributors to the debate of Mormonism in general and have a few links on the subject of archeology in this URL. Many people who are aware of the Tanners would expect to see their comments here. For that reason, I suggest that we leave utlm.org in the list of links. I have more problems finding the archeology sections in the link http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/keystone.htm, and I don't see a problem with deleting that link, but other people should look at it. Nereocystis 07:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

After further thinking, I have a question. What is pro, con, and neutral when it comes to this topic. I added a reference Coe and called it neutral because it seems like a fair account. However, it does have doubts about using the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps pro, con, and neutral are too loaded of terms to be used here. Nereocystis 08:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Need to give your second question more thought. However the UTLM needs to stay. The other link should as well. -Visorstuff 20:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I pulled the Tanners' and Kerry Shirts' links because they were general table of contents links to articles on many Book of Mormon topics. Is there some way to link to one or two articles within those pages that deal with archeology and the BofM?

Also, I agree with the pro/con difficulties. Perhaps subsections under External Links for "Supportive of Book of Mormon Authenticity", "Critical of Book of Mormon Authenticity", etc.? --MrWhipple 21:11, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The utlm link could be listed as http://utlm.org/topicalindexa.htm#Archeology, which will go straight to the archeology section. Nereocystis 21:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent revert

I very much disagree w the recent revert, I was reducing redundancy and unneeded, likely inaccurate POV. I also added a wikilink and a see also section. Please compare [2]. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

your point of view says its inaccurate, and i can respect that, but the claims of redundancey are fictiscious at best. Gabrielsimon 03:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite any source which suggests that "skeptics have identified numerous archaeological details that support the idea that the Book of Mormon is an entirely fictional narrative."? Disproving the entirety of the Book of Mormon is absurd, just as disproving God, magic, or ghosts is completely absurd. Certain key claims can have doubt shed on them, esp. if cited. The entirety of any mythology cannot be logically "disproven" however. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

the entire book is based on one man's accounts of a history that can not be prooven, nad is, logically, very unlikly. examples are 1 - there is no such thing as silk on this continent ( thatcanbe found here) 2 - there was no steel 3 - where are the plates 4 - where was this city of thiers ( which can not be located, in spite of great effort) 5 - where is the breastplate? (also can not be found) 6 - why werent images made of these plates or this breatplate? surely they would want some record of holy relics.

need i go on?

i think not, see the point im making is that the entire work can be regarded as fiction dreamed up by some country bumpkin as an ecuse to have more then one bride. Gabrielsimon 03:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Sam Spade is right on with his criticism of "skeptics have identified numerous archaeological details that support the idea that the Book of Mormon is an entirely fictional narrative." This sentence has to be fixed, it's very bad. I'll try some compromise language. Friday 03:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

you needned do such, because its simple truth that people have TRIED to proove the books truth and failed, numerous times, hence its a fact. Gabrielsimon 03:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry Gabriel, I'm not understanding you very well. Could someone please restore my see also section? I was planning on adding to it, but won't be restoring it myself until 24hrs has past. It linked to Los Lunas Decalogue Stone. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

if its a new addition, it wont be a revert, merely a modiication, i dontt hink youll get dinged for it. Gabrielsimon 04:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm extremely careful, having been unfairly dinged at least once ;) Besides, excessive reverting creates a bad atmosphere, with peoples feelings hurt and bad "vibes" resulting. Have a look at my recent contributions, I have plenty to keep myself busy with for the next 24 hrs ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 04:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Gabriel, you've reverted my compromise language and put back in your same sentence. Do you understand that you're not the only editor involved here? Would you care to explain to the rest of us why you feel your version is better? Friday 04:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

do you bother to read edit summaries at all friday? pay attention! Gabrielsimon 04:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, that doesn't seem to be perfect wikiquette. Could we please focus on the specifics? 2 users have voiced concerns gabriel, would you mind waiting a bit to see if more folks can weigh in? If your right, time will tell, I promise. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 04:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

i dont mean to be rude, but this guy friday has been agfgravating me , seemingly on purpose for a while now. the point is of course that since people have acually attempted to proove the history contained within the book and could not do so, saying that they simply said they did seems insufficiant... Gabrielsimon 04:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)