Talk:Erwin Rommel

Anyone know a website where I can read the Rommel Papers in english?

dubious quote

"Our onliest chance to win the war is to make a real friendship with England!" This quote seems somehow dubious, I cannot find it anywhere and it is not even proper English (onliest!). I also searched for a German translation, to no avail.

Can anyone confirm this as a genuine quote?

Rimshots

I think it is highly questionable that Rommel be placed in the Suicide category. In all reality he was murdered due to his complicity in the July plot

Holden 27

Reversion

Administrators, please revert last edit. One user has deleted text, images and interwiki links from article. Thuresson 19:50, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done. You don't need to be an admin to revert articles, BTW. Ortonmc 20:52, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

D-Day

I seem to remember that Guderian was fairly scathing of Rommel's tactics on D-Day in his book "Panzer General". Does anyone remember this well enough to add something to this effect in the article? Leithp 21:12, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't what Guderian said but Rommel definitely had different ideas of how to defend against the invasion from Rundstedt[sp?] I believe. Whereas, Rundstedt wanted to hold the Panzers in reserve and deliver a strong counter-attack once the invasion has landed, Rommel wanted them close to drive them off the beaches before they can gain a foothold. The ultimate solution was a compromise between the two, which probably had all the disadvantages of both. So, it's possible the Guderian was in the other camp. Comatose51 05:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

This article is extremely biased

This article is by far the most biased source currently available on the web on Rommel. Its author looks by far more concerned about denoting those episodes that attribute him any sort of brutality, no matter how isolated they may be ("During the campaign in France, a French officer taken prisoner on May 17, 1940 was executed on orders from Rommel"), or his admiration to the Third Reich and Hitler. Yet, there isn't a single mention to any of his chivalry acts that earned him the nickname "the last knight" among his adversaries, of which examples abound. There is no mention to the fact that he's the only member of the Third Reich who has a museum about him. No need also to repeat twice a couple of selected phrases from his letters regarding Hitler. All this leads to an extremely POV, poorly written article which does very little justice to an interesting historical figure, who had flaws and virtues both, and Wikipedia does not deserve this sort of third quality articles. Cadorna 09:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• In the time it took you to write all of that up, you could have improved the article considerably! Be bold and make the changes yourself; you sound like you have the knowledge to do it. Be forewarned, though, that if you make significant factual changes, other Wikipedians may ask for references. —HorsePunchKid→龜 20:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

No need for him to become a myth icon for Nazis and German nationalists.If you have any statements of Rommel protesting at Wehrmacht atrocities in September Campaign in Poland 1939 proving alleged "chivalry" be my guest.However statements of admiration for Hitler and Nazi regime are here to stay, because they show the full picture about Erwin Rommel.In time they will be even expanded by me.--Molobo 02:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

This mere post of yours should be enough to dismiss any further edits to the article that you make on the grounds of POV. We're dealing with a historical figure here, deserving a fully objective analysis. No one here is exposing him as a "myth icon", but in your anti-nazi zeal (like most people, I believe nazis to be a band of despicable criminals and butchers) you're doing everything within your power to stain the image of one of the few german generals who actually did something different and acted as soldiers instead of murderers. The bias you intend to imprint on the article comes in evidence when you specifically ask for examples of his pro-adversary behavior for the invasion of Poland in 1939, when it is self evident that: A) he was not in charge of any of the intervening units at the moment and B) no german military, abolutely nobody, challenged Hitler nor the Wehrmacht at the moment. Likewise, one could "accusse" Mc Arthur for "saying nothing" about the bombings of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, or Montgomery for not protesting against the RAF and the bombing of Dresden. You ask for something that no true soldier would have ever done; and you mention the "atrocities" of the Wehrmacht in the 1939 Poland Campaign. The choice of such terms reveals even more your lack of neutrality, for one could ask: in military and historical terms, which "atrocities"? Sure, it was a completely unfair agression war, and a truly humanitarian disaster; but it was a military event, and the Werhmacht acted in consequence. From a historian's point of view, one can't say it involved "atrocities"; of course, from a human's values perspective, one can assume that position, but by saying that here, you're doing exactly what Wikipedia is not. You want examples of his chivalry as a soldier, that earned him the respect of Churchill, Montgomery, Patton, De Gaulle, etc.? Why don't we talk about Rommel burning in front of his soldiers the orders to execute all enemy soldiers captured in Fall Gelb? Why don't you mention him cutting down water from his own supplies and his soldier's in Africa after the Battle of the Kasserine Pass, in order to provide the POWs with enough water to endure the suffocating heat of the desert?

So, until you're able to provide a truly objective view from a historian's point of view, restrain yourself from making any new edits. Reverting. Cadorna 11:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Since you have so many facts to support the notion that Rommel was actually quite upstanding and chivalrous you need to work them into the article. Deleting what appear to be established facts to somehow balance out the article is the wrong way to go. This is what I was trying to suggest when I replied earlier, and looking at the history of the article, it doesn't appear that you've made any attempt to improve it at all! Your effort will be better spent trying to improve the article directly than by reverting other peoples' efforts. —HorsePunchKid→龜 18:32, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

"and B) no german military, abolutely nobody, challenged Hitler nor the Wehrmacht at the moment." They were several complaints from military officers (event to Hitler) about Wehrmacht atrocities.Although marginal they did exist. "A) he was not in charge of any of the intervening units at the moment and " Wrong again.Rommel was responsible for Hitler's mobile HQ during his vitits to the front.And again they are no reports about his opposition to atrocities or amnesty for those suspected of war crimes.

"You ask for something that no true soldier would have ever done; and you mention the "atrocities" of the Wehrmacht in the 1939 Poland Campaign. The choice of such terms reveals even more your lack of neutrality, for one could ask: in military and historical terms, which "atrocities"" You are unaware of Wehrmacht's atrocities during the September Campaign ? A couple of examples : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenberg "Operation Tannenberg was codename for one of extermination actions directed at Polish intelligentsia during World War II. Nazis prepared lists, so called Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen, which listed more than 60,000 Polish activists, intelligentsia, actors, former officers, etc.

First, in August 1939 about 2,000 activists of Polish minority organisations in Germany were arrested and murdered. The second part of the action started September 1, 1939 and ended in October resulting in at least 20,000 murdered in 760 mass executions by special units, so-called Einsatzgruppen, in addition to regular Wehrmacht units and SS" http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/survivors.html "The cooperation between the SS and the Wehrmacht in killing Polish civilians continued not only during the September Campaign but also in the months that followed. Wehrmacht firing squads shot no less than 16,000 Poles by the time the war ended early in October 1939. By December 1939, the Germans had killed approximately 50,000 Polish citizens, of whom 7,000 were Jewish.

The first large-scale atrocity on Polish soil, which set a precedent for innumerable slaughters that followed, took place in a forest near Piasnica Wielka in Pomerania in the period October-December 1939. The Gestapo and German field gendarmerie shot 12,000-14,000 people, including Poles, Jews, psychiatric patients, and Germans un-sympathetic with the Nazis. Many of the Piasnica victims were part of' the Nazi euthanasia program, even before Hitler gave his official mercy-killing order. Approximately 12,000 Poles were victims of this program, which included the elderly, invalids, those with incurable diseases, and hundreds of children, who were given lethal injections because they were invalids or suffered from terminal disease."

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/przemysl%20ghetto.html "First mass executions of Jews took place between 16 and 19 September 1939, at several places in the city outskirts: Lipowica, Pralkowce, Pikulice, at Przekopana, near the Wiar river and near the Jewish cemetery at Slowackiego Street. According to some estimates as many as 600 Jews were killed at that time. Half of them were refugees from western Poland. Not all execution sites are known and only 102 victims were identified. Units involved in these killings (the so-called "Aktion Tannenberg") were Einsatzkommando I/1 and I/3. Units of the 1st Mountain Division and groups of the HJ (Hitlerjugend) also took an active part in round-ups for forced labour and execution" http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_130804_wehrmacht.html The exhibition will be also presented in Germany. Professor Leon Kieres said in opening ceremony that the aim of this is to make Germans aware of atrocites commited by Wehrmacht in Poland since 1939. It's aim is to challenge the German myth that crimes were commited only by members of SS while ordinery soldiers weren't involved in war crimes and genocide. Also it portreys the attempts of german courst to upheld that myth by refusing to cooparate in finding out and convicing Wehrmacht soldiers who took part in warcrimes. The exhibiton shows crimes commited by German soldiers during the period of 1st of September till 25th of November during which Poland was under the jurisdiction of Wehrmacht and makes it responsible for this crimes. The myth of Wehrmacht innocence was recently destroyed by exhibitions in Hamburg, but unfortunetly it created another myth-that those crimes started in 1941. The aim of this exhibition is to correct that. "Why don't you mention him" ...never fighting those who were believed "untermenschen" by Adolf Hitler-"a wonderfull man" in his own words.Written after murders of September Campaign.

--Molobo 14:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

French incident, Rommel friendly relations with Hitler, his admiration for the man, and quotes are true.Therefore I see no reason not to include them, unless somebody wants them to be ignored to present a biased POV view.--Molobo 14:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, it would be helpful if you would fill out the edit summary when you make an edit or reversion. As it is, someone looking at the page history will have to look at each edit individually to figure out what's been going on. I think reverting a page or restoring deleted material is generally considered to be "minor", too, so you may want to check that box when you submit. —HorsePunchKid→龜 18:38, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag

Somebody put neutrality tag on the article.However that is not an registred user and no explanation given or examples of anything that is not a fact.So I will wait some time before removing it, so far I see nothing that isn't a fact in the article. --Molobo 19:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Just keep in mind that facts can be used to push a point of view. I agree that it would be good to give the tag some time just in case a valid concern shows up. I'm not going to give it more than a few hours, though. The discussion I've seen so far here does not seem to indicate that the tag is actually necessary; rather, Cadorna just needs to expand the sections of the article that s/he finds lacking. —HorsePunchKid→龜 20:01, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I did put the tag, sorry if I wasn't logged in at the time. Yes, this article is full of twisted and taken-out-of-context facts in order to "prove" Molobo's point of view, which is as he has openly confessed here, extremely one-sided. I'm grateful that you also consider my intervention necessary, HorsePunch, but rather, I believe that the selected "facts" that Molobo tries to push into the small box of his POV need, should simply to be removed, or at least put into the proper context. But, when it comes to analyze a historical figure, a couple of selected episodes shouldn't be rubbed in the face of the reader with the utmost importance Molobo gives them to prove his rather suprising POV. Cadorna 23:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm giving it a second thought, since I've always worked on the idea that it is better to improve an article, rather than facing a war edit. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to invest in Wikipedia, but I'll do my best to balance the article with proven facts. Therefore, Molobo, I expect you to do the same. You'll have references of everything I post in the next days; likewise, I expect the same to back your POV. Regarding the claim that I go against other's effort by reverting, HorsePunch, the same thing could be said about Molobo's insisting deletion of the line I added to the header, which is of public knowledge; all you have to do is a Google search to verify it. I'm removing the NPOV tag, and as of now, the text remains as written by Molobo. All his further edits will be respected as long as they respect the guidelines of Wikipedia: Verifiability. For the same reasons, I'm also re-adding the line to the lead section and this time I hope it remains. Since we're all so crazed abouts facts, I hope that criteria applies to every fact, not just those that endorse Molobo's point of view. Cadorna 23:47, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Edit war

The currently ongoing edit war is pointless, especially since Molobo continues to ignore all attempts of discussion at this page. In order to achieve an agreement, I've tried everything: from respecting his edits, and adding mine without touching anything he wrote (only to see my contributions removed by him later), to deleting both his and mine to eliminate any possible POVs from the article, and then seeing his POVs added again a couple of hours later. He continues to consider his edits unimpeachable, while everything that oposes his view (even facts of public knowledge like the respect Rommel earned among his adversaries) are sistematically supressed. I do not, and will not, give up and let the POVs of a particular person get ruin an interesting article of a notorius historical character that deserves an objective analysis. But as of now, and until Molobo decides to discuss these matters in a civil way, I see no solution to this situation. I suggest to make the article a linear account of factic events (he did this, he went there, he fought against someone) and make two new subsections, one to compile all historical criticism to his figure and another to account all his documented acts of chivalry, military prowess and admiration from his adversaries. Frankly, I don't know what else to do in order to solve the stalemate where Molobo has put us. Cadorna 18:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hitler's symphathy for Rommel-fact.Rommel's fascination with Hitler-fact.Quotes-fact.Execution of French officer-fact.Massacre commited by 12th Panzer division-fact.Yet all those facts you erase time after time.It seems you are interested more in whitewashing then historic truth.--Molobo 12:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

You're lying. Everyone can see that by simply checking the history page; I've respected your edits; it was you who either: A) deleted mine with no explanation, and B) in the few cases where you actually left them, you modified them with irrelevant comments in order to change the sense of my contributions, which are also facts that deserve the same respect as those pointed out by you. Or is it that you're only interested in presenting those that suit your particular POV?

The only two things that you added which I did remove (just those two - I invite everyone to check the history page), and that I will continue to remove as long as you re-add to the article are: A) the quotes at the end of the page for the sole reason that they already were in the main text (Poland 1939 subsection). Why don't you say that, Molobo? Kinda strange that I oh-so-biased-from-me removed them from one section and actually left them on another!!! B) the completely irrelevant comment (to the contents of this article) about the 12th SS Panzer Division. What's that got to do with Rommel in any possible way? It has its own page; go post it there, not here, where it adds nothing but misplaced information. And always, when I removed such unapropriate edits, I explained the reason at the proper edit summaries. Yet, you insisted.

None of us like nazis; on the contrary, we despise them, like I've already stated here. But this is not a humanitarian forum, and we're not supossed to let our personal ideas get in the way; Wikipedia is about serious History. And as you've already admitted it here openly, you expose yourself once more: your anti-german bias is so incredibly big that you're not suited to provide information at this article that complies with the policy of WP:NPOV. You should have an honesty gesture, excuse yourself from making any further edits to this article and step aside, knowing that the least thing Historiography need is one sided views, especially when you're not above selecting facts and put them out of context or even twist them to support your POV. And that's even worse when you need to silence the testimony of those who point out that you're wrong. Cadorna 13:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

You are wrong -the quotes aren't doubled and aren't in Poland section.The comment about 12th war crimes is relevant to portray in what kind of army Rommel served.No personal views were put, unlike your edits about the "shame of French army".Just pure facts without any opinion.--Molobo 14:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC) Btw-do you know that that before his forced suicide Rommel said "I loved and I still love Fuhrer". ? But I will spare the quote.The two I putted before give the men enough justice.--Molobo 14:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC) We can also add that while he was liked by war reporters, his soldiers considered him very authoritarian and unsymphatic."Serving under Rommel was like punishment" one of army nurses.--Molobo 14:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Molobo's unnaceptable POVs

I honestly begin to think you've got an understanding problem... at least with those things you find it convenient not to understand. Just a couple of lines on the stuff you mentioned:

A) of course the quotes are not there now, genius - when I applied a salomonic solution and deleted both your and my edits, they were gone (much more in terms of justice than what you did, deleting or distorting mine only while developing yours even more). But hey! - see that button above that reads "History"? Try and see if they were there or not at any of my edits. Bingo!

B) You claim that your facts are verified and sourced. Well, you must have read quite a different version of his diary, for your "quotes" are nowhere to be found there. Don't say otherwise: I've extensively searched after your claims.

C) the mere fact that you mention that a nurse (!!!) thought he was ohhhh such an unpleasant guy and even consider "that" relevant is just still another confirmation of your POV views.

D) not to mention your incredible statement regarding your comment on the 12th Division, which you say it serves to "portray in what kind of army Rommel served" (Jesus, without it, I would have never understood that the nazis were evil!) is far more than enough to shoot it on sight if it ever reapears on the article on the basis of WP:NPOV.

All this could be easy dismissed as laughable, but there is a basic fact that is extremely serious behind your edits, at this article and everywhere else you post. I've done a small research of your contributions in the last days only. From you Polish nationalist view, you consider everything German-related hateful, and you express this wherever you post. I formally accusse you of spreading anti-German hatred in Wikipedia. No matter if you talk about Erwin Rommel, Konrad Adenauer, Untermensch, Gustav Stresemann or Prussia, you always have something to say about the "evil germans" in a most POV, fact distorting way. This gets even more evident with your frequent edits to the Anti-Polonism article. I've also learned that this is not the first time you engage in edit wars, staining articles with POVs, with no intention of talking or discussing solutions, like you did in Rywin affair.

You're not qualified to ever set afoot on any other Germany-related article at Wikipedia on the grounds of WP:NPOV. No further edits from you at this article will be tolerated unless you provide, upfront, verifiable sources with clear and precise references of each and every of your claims (book name and author, ISBN, edition and page number). Otherwise, not only I will delete them on sight, but also I will not hesitate to take your case before admins. Cadorna 19:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

"Well, you must have read quite a different version of his diary, for your "quotes" are nowhere to be found there" Yawn...if you would actually read what I wrote you would see that the reference to diaries was in relation to murder of french POW officer by Rommel.The quotes about Fuhrer were from "The Trail of the Desert Fox".The quote about "I love and always loved Hitler" was in German documentary about Rommel http://www.daserste.de/mythosrommel/and and cited by either his son or adiutant(and because I didn't recall who of this two said that I didn't put it).As to "evil germans" you are seeing things since I don't put my opinions but pure facts--Molobo 00:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

"I formally accusse you of spreading anti-German hatred in Wikipedia. No matter if you talk about Erwin Rommel, Konrad Adenauer, Untermensch, Gustav Stresemann or Prussia, you always have something to say about the "evil germans" Where did I write about "evil germans" can you point me to it ? Where did I gave any slight opinion of mine ? Point me to it.So far I am only expanding articles in relation to issues they miss.If you claim that either Stressemen didn't want to weaken Poland to change its borders feel free to prove with sources.If you believe Rommel didn't admire Hitler prove it against existing knowledge.If you claim that Poles weren't classified as Untermenschen-again prove it.If you feel that persecution of Poles wasn't part of Prussian state-again prove it.It seems though you are irritated by history and fact which you don't like but again these aren't my views.It is simply history--Molobo 01:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

" the mere fact that you mention that a nurse (!!!) thought he was ohhhh such an unpleasant guy and even consider "that" relevant is just still another confirmation of your POV views." Why is a statement of o witness of his actions and behaviour.I must tell you that I am not that nurse, so you can hardly accuse me of POV.But you can accuse the nurse-a historical wittness. It may not fit in what would like to see in your idolized Rommel, but it is historical evidence.--Molobo 01:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

how is an unidentified, unsourced report of a 3rd person's feelings a historical fact? Project2501a 00:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Molobo

In accordance to what has been observed above, I can only confirm that Molobo is pushing an agenda of right-wing POVs, including but not limited to his image Germany. He frequently inserts statements which are half-truths at best, and are seen from a Polono-centric POV. Take this example: "No need for him to become a myth icon for Nazis and German nationalists.If you have any statements of Rommel protesting at Wehrmacht atrocities in September Campaign in Poland 1939 proving alleged "chivalry" be my guest." The article simply states that, as Nazi generals go, Rommel has a favourable image in the English-speaking world - as a "magnificent bastard" (George Patton), or a "great general" (Winston Churchill) [1]; Neil Young even mentioned him in a song ("Someday", found on Freedom (1989 album)). If Rommel - deservedly or not - earned a reputation for chivalry in combat among his enemies in the North African theatre of war, then it is perfectly correct to mention this fact here. There is an essential difference between stating that Rommel "was" chivalrous and stating that people "believe" he was. This is not the first occasion that Molobo fails to recognise the difference. Quite apart from that, why make Rommel's position on the 1939 invasion of Poland the litmus test for his supposed "chivalry", out of all the WWII operations he was involved in? This is unbearably Polono-centric. If anything, the test would have to be the invasion of Czechoslovakia, during which Rommel was Hitler's chief bodyguard. (By contrast, Ludwig Beck refused to play a part in the aggression against Czechoslovakia.) It seems that Molobo finds it hard to accept that, ultimately, Rommel's image in the rest of the world does not hinge on any protests he did or did not make against the invasion of Poland. From a Polish perspective, this may well be a reason for bitterness. But such bitterness must be kept out of Wikipedia articles. --Thorsten1 12:30, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm concerned that instead of disputing the merits of the article, you're getting personal here. Even naming the section here in attempt to personally attack another wp user is far from appropriate. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 14:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Wojsyl: If you cared to read my post more carefully, you might discover that I was strictly referring to the contents of the article. The only reason I chose to title this section "Molobo" was that he has so far been the only one to assert that the widespread respect for Rommel must not be mentioned here because Rommel did not protest against the German conduct in Poland. He also frequently reverted the article. While I could perhaps have come up with a more ingenious headline if I had thought about it a bit longer, I still think it is perfectly correct to use Molobo's name as the headline for a section that deals exclusively with his edits and arguments.

Secondly - in the end I mused on Molobo's motives for his edits, and a plausible explanation seems to be that he is personally disappointed about an injustice of history - Rommel enjoys a fairly decent reputation for his role in the African theatre of war, whereas his involvement in other operations is conveniently overlooked. As much sympathy as I personally have for such griefs, Wikipedia is not an appropriate venue to redress the injustices of history, and personal griefs must not be allowed to affect the NPOV of articles. If you choose to misread my concern about Molobo's POV-guided edits as personal attacks, then I cannot help it, either.--Thorsten1 20:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

You make a great point here, and might also want to take a look at Molbos contributions over at Heinz Guderian where he also made major POV intrusions.GeneralPatton 14:29, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I have come into conflict with Molobo on his contributions to several articles, some on German affairs, some on purely Polish ones. I will be glad to have a look at this one, too, but we should have no illusions on Molobo's willingness to compromise, even if faced with constructive opposition. My own experience shows that he does not settle for anything less than his very own wordings. --Thorsten1 20:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunetly Thorsten yes Poland campaign is the test, because several other Wehrmacht commanders protested at the conduct of German forces.There were no major combat operations in Czech takeover, unlike in Poland, nor were there widespread war crimes as in Poland.And frankly just one war crime is enough to be important.Furthermore neither British nor Czechs were persecuted by Nazi regime as Poles. --Molobo 15:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, as I said above, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I understand your disappointment about what you seem to feel is an unjust verdict of history. But you will have to respect other people's perspective as well. It is an undisputed fact that, internationally, Rommel's image is more favourable than that of most, if not all, other German officers - deservedly or not. You are not entitled to censor this fact just because you happen to think this reputation is undeserved. "Poland campaign is the test," - for you, yes. For most others, no. Simple as that. "several other Wehrmacht commanders protested at the conduct of German forces". You are mixing things up, I think. There was no substantial protest from high-ranking Wehrmacht officers against Wehrmacht operations in Poland. What you are probably referring to are protests against the atrocities committed by non-Wehrmacht Einsatzgruppen filed by some Wehrmacht officers who immediately witnessed their behaviour from close range. "There were no major combat operations in Czech takeover". Of course there weren't any, since Hitler had "negotiated" the Czech surrender. This does not alter the fact that the invasion of Czechoslovakia was the first German act of aggression against a non-German population; Ludwig Beck was far-sighted enough to understand that it would eventually predetermine a full-blown European war in which he refused to play a role - while Rommel became Hitler's chief bodyguard in Prague. So if we are to question the validity of Rommel's image, then Beck should be the standard to measure him against, rather than any other. "nor were there widespread war crimes as in Poland". This just reveals your utter ignorance and Polono-centric POV. Ever hear of Lidice? True, in the final analysis the occupation of Czechoslovakia did have a lower per capita death toll. But as you say yourself, "just one war crime is enough to be important", so there is no reason to belittle the Czech suffering in WWII. "neither British nor Czechs were persecuted by Nazi regime as Poles" - as for the Czechs, see above. As for the British - please read up some more on WWII: You might learn that Britain was never occupied by Germany, so its population could not possibly have been "persecuted" to the extent that Poland's population was.

Moreover, regarding your insinuation that the British (and American) image of Rommel was somehow less relevant because they did not suffer as much as the Poles: As a moral statement by someone who had the privilege to grow up decades after the war, and probably cannot even consciously remember the communist era, this is unbearably arrogant. It shows a lack of respect for the countless American and British families who sent their sons to fight for the freedom of Europe, including Poland, and who can hardly be held responsible for the fact that, in the end, Stalin bullied Roosevelt and Churchill to surrender Poland and many other European countries. BTW, this argument is strikingly reminiscient of an irritating Jewish POV according to which the Polish wartime suffering was negligible, just because from the perspective of the Warsaw Ghetto, life in the rest of Warsaw appeared almost normal. You may want to think about that some time. --Thorsten1 20:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

That's one of the beauties of wikipedia. It does not record one universal "truth". Instead it shows that there exist different POVs and records them all in an eventually NPOV way. This is especially apparent in the history related articles. We're not rewriting a traditional paper encyclopedia, that is supposed to present a single "Anglo-American", "German", "Polish", "Jewish" or whatever "true" point of view. If we are aware of international differences in perception, we should make them visible to the reader and let him judge. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 21:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Poland 1939

Why do you keep removing the "Poland 1939" subsection under "World War II" ? Is this something shameful to participate in this invasion or what ? WWII did not start in 1940. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 15:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Rommel didn't really participate in any combat in Poland. GeneralPatton 15:32, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Attention to edits by user Cadorna

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_1st_Mountain_Division&action=history This is the following comment posted by the user Cadorna "(Removed extreme POV - you call Yad Vashem "trustworthy"??? Oh COME ON!!)" I leave others to judge neutrality of edits by the user. --Molobo 15:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I have no doubt that we are witnessing an attempt to whitewash Nazi army here. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 15:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

For the record; I think Molobo, Cadorna and others are all trying to push POVs here. Comments such as "You're not qualified to ever set afoot on any other Germany-related article at Wikipedia on the grounds of WP:NPOV." are also extremely unhelpful. It seems obvious, to me at least, that Rommel was pro-Nazi (like many, if not most, of the Generals in the Wehrmacht). Whether he changed his opinions later in the war and participated in the assassination plot is still in some doubt as far as I know. Having said that, he was one of the more respected Axis generals. Certainly the British army never had anything other than respect for him and the conduct of his troops (again, as far as I know). Perhaps a little more balance is what is needed rather than constant reverts from one POV to the other. Leithp 15:38, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Ditto. --Wojsyl ^(talk)

Rommel, like most in the Wehrmacht was a strong German nationalist, he supported Hitler manly for seeing him as someone who will strengthen the nation. However, his later disillusionment, as well as the opposition to carry on some of the more extreme orders is rather well documented. GeneralPatton 16:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

However so is his early fascination with Hitler.The quotes I have given before are documented in Trail of the Desert Fox. It isn't a contested biography IIRC. Till 1942 from what I know Rommel was quite loyal towards the regime. The fragment about chivalry-Rommel didn't protest against conduct of campaign in Poland-Blaskowitz or Uxel did protest, so I think it would be best to change it to "British soldiers" not adversaries.Likewise the execution of French POW isn't disputed I think it should be put in some form to portay the man fully.We can of course in addition to quotes and the incident give the fragment that he advised his son against joining Waffen SS for its role in atrocities. I see no reason why the article can't be expanded with common work to portay the man in all his aspects with a balanced view --Molobo 16:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

And I have no doubt myself that we are witnessing an attempt from Polish extreme-right nationalists to stain absolutely every German related topic, and even more amazing is the fact that no actions are being taken to control these persons activities. Leithp: do me a favor, check these guys' contributions and read their every thoughts on these matters. Let their actions speak for themselves. And yes, some Jewish sources cannot be relied on when referring to such issues, for obvious bias reasons. While the Jewish cause in WWII deserves utmost respect, there are sources that do not comply to Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy, Yad Vasem being one of them. Honestly, Leithp, it amazes that you point at my comment after what I expresed at your talk page. I replied to your messages promptly, compromising myself to respect the 3RR on this page (which I did), a compromise that Molobo not only did not assume, but who ignored completely by breaking the aforementioned rule repeatedly. I also suggested a compromise of neutrality at this very page, and notified you about it; I'm still waiting for a similar reply from Molobo, but all I got was more edit war. I even restored the article to the version prior to any of my or his edits in order to attain the greatest possible grade of neutrality... broken again by... guess who?

Molobo, thanks for letting others decide about the neutrality of my edits. I'd do the same for you; however, everyone on Wikipedia seems to already know that yours are not neutral at all. I've had enough of your fanaticism, your extremely bad manners, your primitive use of the english language, your lack of knowledge of the WP edit tools and your bitterness; since you're a journalism student, I can't say I foresee you a career outside of right wing nationalist press.

Wojsy, stop seeing ghosts, or rather I'd say, twisting the facts with your personal motives. Read my words above: saying that nazis were "despicable murderers" as I did isn't my idea of "whitewash nazi army" (sic). This is about History, in a NPOV way, not a Polish forum. And regarding the message you left at my talk page, I suggest you do some research in the future before threatening people, in case you don't wanna get in trouble in life. I never broke the 3RR. Your friend Molobo did, yet I haven't heard any complaints from you on that direction.

I'm sick and tired of the rampaging edits of these people claiming that "these are FACTS!!!"... yet they provide no reliable sources, if any at all. Molobo has tired all of us with the alleged "murder of a French officer by Rommel"... yet a Google search on the subject leaves only Wikipedia and its mirrors as the only places on the whole web (!) with such information. Meanwhile, other facts that deserve the same consideration and that prove contrary to their opinion(s) (I've expressed something similar to what GeneralPatton has just mentioned, only to see it changed by Molobo hours later without explanation), are sistematically deleted and/or twisted without mercy. As HorsePunchKid has rightfully pointed here, selected facts can be pushed into "proving" a POV, and this is exactly what we are witnessing.

Frankly, this is exactly the kind of stuff that gives Wikipedia its fame of a non reliable source. As for me, I think my time here is over. I didn't came here to fight with the narrow minds of a few fanatics, but to do some learning, searching, and contributing. Too bad.

And just for the record, I'm Italian, not German. So long. -- Cadorna 16:43, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't want any more flames here, however it frustrates me to be called Polish extreme-right nationalist or being accused of threatening you. I have simply warned you that you've broken the 3RR rule. I thought it would be a friendlier gesture than reporting this incident. Now, I don't like your getting personal on me. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 18:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"yet they provide no reliable sources" David Irving "Trail of the Desert Fox" for quotes.Given time and time again. Executing French officer -One brave French lieutenant-colonel tried to defy Rommel--"He looked like a fanatical officer',recalled Rommel in his history."His eyes burned with hatred and impotent fury...I decided to take him with us.He had already gone on about fifty yards further east,but he was brought back to Rothenburg.Rothenburg ordered him up on to our command Panzer.But as the French officer curtly refused--three times,in fact--to come with us,there was nothing for it but to shoot him down." The Trail of the Fox,page 58.

17th May 1940

... Hundreds upon hundreds of French soldiers and their officers surrendered at our approach. Sometimes they had to be got out of vehicles driving alongside us. Particulary angry at this sudden disturbance was a French Lieutenant-colonel, whose vehicle was caught in the jam, and whom we overtook. I asked him his rank and position. He gave the impression of being one of these very fanatical officer types. His eyes glowed with hatred and impotent fury. In consideration of the possibility that our column would get split up in the traffic, I decided it best to take him along with us. He was already 50m (55yd) to the east when he was brought back to the command tank of Colonel Rothenburg, who motioned him to climb up. The French officer bluntly refused to come along, and there was nothing for it but to shoot him after three times ordering him to get up. ...

Source: Rommel and his art of war by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel --Molobo 20:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Another comment from Cadorna (this time comparing Jews to Klu Klux Klan and Nazi units to oppresed minority) : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend&action=history "(Serious sources only, please - using www.jewishlibrary.org as a source on this matter is like quoting the KKK on the Black Power article)" --Molobo 16:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I've been reading thru the discussion, and I think that rather than a comparison, he was merely offering an example of what an unneutral source is. On the other hand, you, Molobo, have much more to answer for. Shauri 17:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC) So can you tell me what is biased and "unneutral" in the source ? Certainly I don't think Jews should be compared to KKK or Nazi's to some persecuted and oppresed minority--Molobo 18:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC) Btw it seems that the idea of neutrality is hiding every mention of war crimes commited by Nazi forces.Am I taking this right ?--Molobo 18:29, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Molobo, I am not familiar with Cadorna's political POV on other pages. The fact is that on this page, you are carelessly drawing on your readings of David Irving, a notorious Nazi sympathiser and holocaust denier. Before you point your finger at others, you would be well advised to have a second look at the giants whose shoulders you are so proudly standing on. --Thorsten1 20:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Back on the track

People: I think the article is fairly all right as it is now. Or is there any ongoing dispute about it ? Otherwise I suggest to quit the discussion here, as:

1. it does not belong here
2. it does not seem to lead anywhere
3. it's getting personal and unnecessarily heated

Cool down everyone (myself included). --Wojsyl ^(talk) 18:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I will change adversaries to British soldiers. There are no known cases of Rommel expresing chivalry to Poles or protesting conduct of German forces in September Campaign(von Rundstedt, Blaskowitz, Petzel, and Ulex did protest).Also I will add the quotes, since nobody gave any reasons why they should be removed.I will wait some time for reasons of course If anybody has any. --Molobo 18:46, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Rommel never saw action in Poland, his command was purely ceremonial. The quotes you presented were presented out of context... and I agree with Wojsyl, the article is pretty OK now, before making any changes, they should first be discussed here in detail, or I will be forced to lock the article if another edit war erupts, I'm actually considering locking it right now to cool the things down. GeneralPatton 19:15, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record: Polish forces fought in Africa as well. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Its also interesting to note that Rommel's wife was of Polish ancestry. GeneralPatton 19:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

No wonder. Polish are the most beautiful girls worldwide ;-) --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I must add though that I did read after the argument many sites about Waffen SS on wiki-many(if not most) are without any mention of war crimes commited by those units.That is worrying.--Molobo 18:50, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Why are you mentioning that here? GeneralPatton 19:15, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that Rommel has much to do with war crimes. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 19:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Please provide the proper context.I will add it after the qoutes. I can paste the whole page where they are written to discussion If you wish if your believe there is some unique and specific context of those quotes. Whetever Rommel took place in action is unimportant.Canaris didn't and protested.--Molobo 19:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC) Right now I am not editing the article in order to achieve concencus on showing balanced view on Rommel, including his early fascination and loyalty to Hitler(if you think that is untrue please state your reasons)--Molobo 19:48, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"I don't think that Rommel has much to do with war crimes." He confessed to executing a French officer taken prisoner.Some units under his command made war crimes, and he used slave labour.--Molobo 20:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Photos

File:Rommel Africa color 210.jpg

Rommel in Africa

Here are some that are not used on the article page. As the article gets more extensive, they could be put in. GeneralPatton 16:34, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Ummm, that photo is in the article, opposite the 2nd Alamein reference. Leithp 16:37, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Protection

Ok, I’ve locked the article for a 24 hour cool down period... please lets discuss the potential changes here so as to avoid another revert war. GeneralPatton 20:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• Add-Hitler's symphathy for Rommel.
• Add-quotes.
• Add-Rommel's early admiration of Hitler and campaign in Poland.
• Add-no reports of Rommel objecting German conduct in September campaign while being on the front (killing PoW, murder of civilians, bombing civilian cities etc,Blaskowitz and others protested).
• Add-execution of French PoW.
• Change-adversaries to British soldiers.
• Add-his growing dissillusion with Hitler after 1942.
• Add-advice for his son not to join Waffen SS.

Source for execution of POW:

"One brave French lieutenant-colonel tried to defy Rommel--'He looked like a fanatical officer', recalled Rommel in his history. 'His eyes burned with hatred and impotent fury...I decided to take him with us. He had already gone on about fifty yards further east, but he was brought back to Rothenburg.Rothenburg ordered him up on to our command Panzer.But as the French officer curtly refused--three times,in fact--to come with us,there was nothing for it but to shoot him down'." The Trail of the Fox,page 58.

17th May 1940

... Hundreds upon hundreds of French soldiers and their officers surrendered at our approach. Sometimes they had to be got out of vehicles driving alongside us. Particulary angry at this sudden disturbance was a French Lieutenant-colonel, whose vehicle was caught in the jam, and whom we overtook. I asked him his rank and position. He gave the impression of being one of these very fanatical officer types. His eyes glowed with hatred and impotent fury. In consideration of the possibility that our column would get split up in the traffic, I decided it best to take him along with us. He was already 50m (55yd) to the east when he was brought back to the command tank of Colonel Rothenburg, who motioned him to climb up. The French officer bluntly refused to come along, and there was nothing for it but to shoot him after three times ordering him to get up. ...

Source: Rommel and his art of war by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel"

Source on admiration of Hitler (besides numerous historic evidence

Later that day, August 31, 1939 he added, “Waiting is a bore, but it can’t be helped. The Führer knows what’s right for us.” Almost at once the telephone call came, ordering him to stand by. That evening, the phone rang again in the railroad station waiting room where he had set up his office. “The invasion begins tomorrow, Thus the Second World War began. Nobody, least of all Erwin Rommel, could foresee that the military operations that began on September 1, heralded by a ranting and self-justificatory Reichstag speech by the Führer, would inexorably involve one country after another; would last six years; would leave  million dead and all Europe and half Asia ravaged by fire and explosives; would destroy Hitler’s Reich, ruin the British Empire and end with the creation of new weapons, new world powers and a new lawlessness in international affairs. Rommel wrote excitedly next day, “What do you make of the events of September 1  Hitler’s speech? Isn’t it wonderful that we have such a man?” Trail of Desert Fox page 50.

--Molobo 20:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I’d be cautious in using a David Irving book as a primary source. GeneralPatton 20:45, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this evidence here seems weak to me as well. I think I'll pass here. --Wojsyl ^(talk) 21:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)