Talk:Ringworld

The Ringworld Is Unstable - 1970 or 1971

So... which year did MIT students chant "The Ringworld Is Unstable"? According to the article The Ringworld Engineers, it happened in 1970. According to this article, it happened in 1971. The latter seems more probable to me, but I don't know.

Could somebody please check the introduction to the book "Ringworld Engineers" and correct the wrong date on either article?

-- pedant (talk) 12:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Other Changes

I took out a very long discussion about the physics of Ringworld, it didn't really pertain to the article itself. If anyone wants to read or manipulate it, you'll have to go through the history. WLU 16:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: the recent edit by 68.200.28.110:
Should it have been changed from "Sol" to "our Sun"? I thought that was quoting from the book, though it's been several years since I read the book so I don't know for sure. nihon 01:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thought so. :-) nihon 04:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

---

"Even visualizing what such a massive structure would look like when viewed from its surface is a difficult, yet rewarding, exercise." Should this really be in the article? 172.129.179.16 02:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be there. I've rewritten it. Hayford Peirce 00:27, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

---

There's a ringworld in the shareware game Escape Velocity: Nova. Basically, they just grow food on it. They use less than 1% of it and it feels billions. -LtNOWIS 03:42, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

---

From Ringworld:

"...the tensile strength of the material required would be on the same order as the nuclear binding force..."

Who wrote this? I'm not so sure of its accuracy. If the rotation of the ring is set to its keplerian velocity, i don't see why you need so big an strength, unless someone calculated that the differential gravity would be so high. Did someone really calculate this? AN

I wrote it. If by "keplerian" velocity you mean orbital velocity, keep in mind that the Ringworld is _not_ in orbit; it is rotating far faster than orbital velocity in order to produce centrifugal pseudogravity. My admittedly somewhat hazy memory tells me that Niven's ringworld rotated at 770 km/s. I'll dig up some specific numbers when I get home if nobody beats me to it. -BD

OK. I had forgotten to consider that. A high tensile strength is indeed necessary.--AN

How about a "Tubeworld" rotating at orbital velocity with transparent "roof" and dark "floor" to keep in the atmosphere and capture the heat (greenhouse effect). Would this get around the tensile strength problem?

I'm sorry, I know this isn't the place to redesign Niven's creation, but I can't resist. It seems to me that my proposed tube structure, if made rigid, would still result in an unstable orbital equilibrium; but, what if we put in a series of flexible "expansion joints" to restore the stability that would be enjoyed by independent segments at orbital velocity?

We could even spin the tube to provide artificial gravity, without undo stress, if we were to spin about the tube's longitudinal axis rather than about the orbital axis. Admittedly, this might put some stress on the materials and energy loss since the tube has a slight curvature in its longitudinal axis and the materials would have to expand and contract slightly (would this be negligible because of the very large radius of curvature?).

--SRWenner

Ring instability is a minor concern. If you can build such a monstrous structure, adding attitude control wouldn't be a problem. Ion engines on the rim, or something like that.

I want to link "nuclear binding force" to the appropriate Wikipedia entry but not sure which it should be.

Anybody?

Having a wild stab and setting it to weak nuclear force :-) --Anders Törlind

I'm not sure whether it's supposed to be the strong nuclear force or the weak one, I'll have to reread an article or two about the Ringworld to dig up better specifics. -BD

Not a Ringworld expert, but I would think that the strong nuclear force would be closer to what is commonly called the "nuclear binding force".

---

Niven claims he was "forced" to write the sequel Ringworld Engineers, because he didn't realise the Ringworld was not actually in a stable orbit. He says that at a science fiction convetion he attended the halls were full of MIT students shouting, "The Ringworld is unstable! The Ringworld is unstable!" Ah fandom.  :-)

If only fandom had used its powers to force him to _not_ write Ringworld Throne... :) (the third book is widely considered to be vastly inferior to the original)

LOL

And I am extremely proud to be one of the people that persuaded Larry to write Ringworld's Children (although I suggested Ringworld's Child) — PhilHibbs | talk 16:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Nice. When I was young and keen, I actually simulated a ringworld using point masses connected by lightweight springs and numerically integrated its motion forward. It was rough as hell, but it sorta worked, and gave me a fair idea what would happen. What I found was that it wasn't just slightly unstable, it was *incredibly* unstable. It's not just a question of crashing into the planet in a nice circle, it looks a bit like those pictures you see of galaxies colliding with arms flying off in different directions, and it didn't take being much off centre for it to do that. You'd think it would go elliptical as it slides sideways to its doom, but basically, the difference in orbital speeds between apogee and perigee and the tugging of the loop seems to utterly mess up the symmetry so thoroughly, that I can still hear the Ringworld inhabitance screaming in the night sometimes as they lose their atmosphere and go spinning off into the void ;-) or something LOL. - (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 07:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As there's no need for pseudogravity at the shadow squares, couldn't they just be in inertial orbit around the star, meaning no need for stabilization there?

i think the shadow squares had to rotate at that speed in order to keep the length of the day short. though i cant remember in which direction they turned in relation to the ring

Yes, that was exactly why. Plus it keeps the shadow square wire under tension so that they stretch back apart on their own after the squares close up during solar flares. I'm pretty sure they turned in the opposite direction of the ring, but don't quote me on that. -- John Owens 11:42 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

As pointed out in RC, a better (more Earthlike) configuration would be five long strips orbiting retrograde, implying that the squares as described spin in the same direction — PhilHibbs | talk 16:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Why do they need to orbit retrograde? Ringworld makes one revolution around the star in ~10 days. Squares in (pro-grade) inertial orbit make one revolution in a ~360 days. Disregarding their slow rotation, it's obvious that 10 "squares" (actually long stripes) will provide Ringworld with nice day/night cycle. You do not even need to link the stripes together, their orbits are stable.

---

That's right, Patrick. The 770 number bandied about above was miles per second, not metres or kilometers. 1240 km/s might be even closer. -- John Owens 12:13 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

---

I removed the following:

This could be produced by siphoning matter through wormholes in the time/space continuum from the hypothetical Big Crunch.

There is no scientific basis for thinking that siphoning matter through wormholes could produce a superstrong material, and it's not something mentioned in the book, IIRC.

Proposed Split

I think it may be useful to the various articles linking to the Ringworld article for different reasons, that the article be split into two

1. Ringworld: which describes the novel.
2. Niven Ring: (now a redirect page), which describes the theoretical megastructure, along with the science and engineering behind it.

Beowulf314159 19:58, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree - Although I believe "Ringworld" should be a disambiguation page with "Ringworld (Novel)" and "Ringworld (Megastructure)". Fosnez 15:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree with this breakdown. PeregrineV 23:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Xihr 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This page has a lot to do with fan speculation and not much to do with the novel.Larry Dunn 22:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with proposed split. Aggieandrew 04:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but can someone update us on the status of the split? Currently it's still the same article right? I just want to make sure so I'll have links from other articles right. theanphibian 07:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Salinity of the world oceans

I don't want to edit the ringworld page directly, but I am not sure how to add to the discusion page so I will say it here. In the 5th paragraph of the engineering section it is stated that Luis Wu is concerned about his salt intake because the oceans are non saline. I am not sure if I have read a revised edition of this, but I just read book 2 where this is brought up, and in the copy I read it specifically says all the seas fresh water and the two oceans and the only bodies of salt water. The issue at hand is the oceans are as far removed from where he is at as mars is from the earth. This makes it unlikely that there would be much salt in the food sources Luis Wu is eating at the time. This is not in conflict with the saline oceans of the Ringworld Children.

67.66.236.29 02:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Nick

(NOte: Quote from Ringworld Hardback Edition, Page 108: "We found another deep salt ocean on the opposite side of the ring, as big as the one on this side. Spectra confirmed the salt." --Nessus)

The problem with this reference is that we don't know which edition of the book it is, unless there is only one hardback edition, and anyway, there's not enough information to pick up a particular copy of the book. Much like the movement through transfer booths discussed in the trivia section, it is possible that Niven edited successive editions once the flaws and omissions were pointed out to correct for them - you'd have to compare the very first edition of ringworld with later versions, or find a quote from Niven about the salt. I think the current text adequately makes the point that there are contradictions between books in the series and successive editions of the books. WLU 23:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Shadow squares have to be connected

The shadow squares have to be connected to each other, otherwise tidal forces would make them turn endways towards the star like spokes of a wheel.

They are-- this is mentioned in one of the books. Jtrainor 20:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, this is a key plot point in the very first book, Ringworld. The Lying Bastard, after being disabled by an attack from the meteor defense system, runs smash into a length of shadow square wire. The wire follows them down and they meet up with it again on the Ringworld. Finally the wire is vital to their eventual escape from the Ringworld. Rpresser (talk) 06:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Computer games

There are two graphical computer games based on "Ringworld". They are

"Ringworld: Revenge of the Patriarch" http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1347

and

"Return to Ringworld" http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?gameid=1348

Ringworld/Halo

Has anyone knoticed that the Ringworld looks like the Halo games ring?

• It's the reverse: Halo looks a bit like the Ringworld. Actually, Halo is more like a Banks orbital than a Niven ring. 20:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Orbital Velocity and Rotational Velocity

The numbers are not correct, Earth´s rotational velocity is 1,200 km/h not 1,200 km/s think about it. Earth's orbital velocity is 36 km/s. Just see Earth. David 08:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a figure that has nothing to do with Earth's rotation. It's the tangential speed of the Ringworld, not the Earth. Xihr 10:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ohhh I get it now, the rotation creates a gravity effect to keep everything pinned to the surface....so the Halo things aren't all a bunch of made up crap after all Masterblooregard 22:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

advanced tech

Shouldn't the intro read virtually indestructible hulls? Cueball anyone? --Belg4mit 02:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Section that is oddly specific

I thought this article was fairly well-written, except for this paragraph:
The "Control Room" is a vast maze of rooms contained in the hollow space under the "Map of Mars". In order to create the rarefied atmosphere on Mars, the "Map of Mars" is lifted 20 miles above the main Ringworld surface creating a 1,120,000,000 cubic mile cavity. The Control Room contains living space for thousands of Pak Protectors, as well as space to grow the "Tree-of-Life" plants to support this many Protectors. Other rooms in the cavity support such features as the "Meteor Defense System", which uses the superconductor grid embedded in the scrith foundation material to manipulate the magnetic field of the Ringworld's sun to create a solar flare; it uses this to generate a powerful laser beam which is capable of destroying everything in its path.
Ringworld is the only thing I've read by Larry Niven at this point. Everything in the article was quite easy to follow (and I think that same would be true for someone who hadn't read the book), but this paragraph sticks out. For example:
-The rest of the section seems to be about general engineering issues, while this paragraph seems to randomly mention a feature of the Ringworld. By the same reasoning, why not mention the floating cities? The only part that seems very relevant to the engineering is the part about the meteor defense system.
-The first two sentences completely puzzled me until I read some other articles related to the Known Space universe, which lead me to believe that Martians were also on the Ringworld. To someone who has only read Ringworld (or not read it at all), creating the rarefied atmosphere of Mars seems completely random. An explanation or possibly just removal of those first two sentences seems like a good idea.
-The entire article seems fairly general and spoiler-free, aside from mentioning that some Ringworld inconsistencies get fixed in later books. Then this paragraph randomly brings up Mars and the Pak Protectors; I assume that their presence on the Ringworld is at least a somewhat surprising revelation in later books. For this reason, I again question why this part is included.
These are just my observations. I'd be curious if anyone has anything to say on the matter.--Smooth Nick 09:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The floating cities weren't built by the ringbuilders (the Pak), Mars was. If you can build the ringworld why would you need to build a floating contraption which looks pretty fragile and inelegant by comparison? And since they do posit in the book (at least I'm pretty sure it's in the 1st and not Engineers) that the oceans serve as 1:1 scale (fully-populated) atlas of potential threats, the whole bit about Mars ensues. It's a somewhat logical extension from talking about the technical systems (shadow squares) to go to the "Dept. of Public Works."

If this is all you've read though, you should read much more. Although I'd recommend skipping Ringworld Throne, Footfall, and the Burning City series :-P --Belg4mit 20:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The characters note the Maps in the first book but do not realize they are 1:1 scale populated areas until the second book. And they're only looking for the Repair Center in the second book. Xihr 21:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

engineering box

Why is so much space taken up by density in the Mass box? It's presumably the density of scrith, but not especially helpful. --Belg4mit 03:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Crashing on the Ringworld

Although Lying Bastard did indeed hit the shadow square wires, it's more relevant that it was shot down by an unknown weapon (the meteor defence). Its General Products Hull was invulnerable (except to antimatter) but it carried its intra-system drive and much instrumentation externally, and it couldn't use its hyperdrive so close to the Ringworld's sun. Captain Pedant 10:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Puppeteers have the most advanced technology?

Apologies, but this seems rather inaccurate:

"The character Nessus is a Pierson's Puppeteer, a species with the most advanced technology in Known Space"

Er, no, that would be the Outsiders. It was the Outsiders that the Puppeteers turned to in order to secure the reactionless drive technology they needed to move their homeworlds (Kemplerer Rosette) out of harm's way from the Core Explosion. Also reference this Wikipedia article on Outsiders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_%28Known_Space%29

72.45.96.236 04:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Sean M. (www.urbanrefugee.ca)

why fundamentalist?

The summary contains the phrases:

"A theme well-covered in the novel is that of cultures suffering technological breakdowns who then proceed to revert to belief-systems along fundamentalist or religious lines."

"Fundamentalism" is a religious philosophy that believes certain ideas are absolutely right and must be unswervingly adhered to. We are not given enough information about the Ringworlder's beliefs to say whether they are fundamentalist or not. All we really know is that Louis considers them superstitious fools and has no qualms about exploiting them.

What IS interesting is that this attitude of Louis' (and Niven's?) disappears completely in the sequels, where Louis treats everybody he meets as equals and with respect. This improvement in Louis' character is nowhere mentioned in the Ringworld plot summaries. CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about the use of the term fundamentalist. There's really no evidence presented in the book that that's the case. That's original research and probably non-neutral POV, to boot. As for emphasizing how his attitude seems to changed (even though it isn't explained or dwelled on in the books, as far as I can remember), that sounds a bit WP:NPOV to me too. Xihr (talk) 04:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ringworld(1stEd).jpg

Image:Ringworld(1stEd).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

size of an Orbital

I wouldn't have thought there's significant originality in a trivial application of freshman physics. —Tamfang (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Big Ring

I added this:

One of the characters in Consider Phlebas mentions "Big Ring" structures, considerably larger than an Orbital, but it is unclear whether or not these are on the scale of a Niven Ring.

It got reverted with a comment of "rv; huh? what you included involves speculation". Where is the speculation? It is mentioned by one of the characters, and it is unclear how big a "big ring" is. I think it's clear from the text that it's bigger than an Orbital, so if Orbital gets a mention, so should Big Ring. I really don't see the objection to this being included, and it's been reverted twice so I'm not going to get into a war. Opinions? — PhilHibbs | talk 18:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The comment self-disclaims itself and so is introducing information that is not established as true. It's trivial and speculative, and thus doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Xihr (talk) 20:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Then the reference to "orbital" should be removed, since this is even less to do with Ringworlds. Orbitals are tiny in comparison, the only thing they share is that they are circular in shape "Big Ring" is probably the only structure mentioned in science fiction that is similar to a Ringworld, I'm inclined to delete most of the section since none of the examples come even close, they're all several hundred orders of magnitude smaller. — PhilHibbs | talk 02:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

They're both solid rings, habitable on the inside, and spun for artificial gravity. They're clearly related, whether or not you consider them true ringworlds or not. The bottom line is that there many, many notable, reliable sources that make a comparison between, say, the structure featured in Halo to the Ringworld. It would be impossible to keep those links out based on such an arbitrary distinction, and so the links should stay in. The references make it clear that they're not true Ringworlds, anyway. Xihr (talk) 04:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)