Talk:List of official languages by country and territory

It's ridiculous to list both de facto and official. If it has not official language, then list none. Some countries have official languages, but another local language that is more common than the offficial language. How is this indicated here?

Also, the languages should be wikified. --Jiang 08:38, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The USA, for one, has no official language. But English is definitely the de facto national language, being spoken by the vast majority of citizens. It would be silly to list no language at all simply because none is technically, legally "official". I do agree however that the list should indicate which languages are regional, which de facto, which official; and be wikified.Matt gies 08:50, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This list is ridculous, and I'm going to put it on VfD tomorrow. How can you have "de facto" languages on a list of official languages?? If they're de facto, they're not necessarily official. Period. Change the title or it goes on VfD. Moncrief 28 Feb 2004 (UTC) And FRENCH is listed as an official language of the UK?? What! Not even de facto... oy vey. Moncrief

--Either way, it should be Scottish Gaelic, not French. Perhaps using the World Factbook to get languages? Nick04

I guess I'm not clear why "de facto" languages are still being included on a list of Official Languages. Does someone think they are the same thing or similar enough to fudge it? It's not the case, if so. De facto and official languages are two very distinct categories. Moncrief

I agree, and there's already a list of official languages. What this page is is really a List of Predominant Languages by Country, not official.Matt gies 20:49, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Matt, do you want to do the honor of moving to a new title? I think you or someone should. Moncrief, 20:50, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No, this page should not be moved. That list is organized by language. This one is done by country. Instead, this list should be fixed so that it lists only official languages. Please cut the threats. --Jiang 00:16, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO

I've found the following information on the official site of the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina:

(srpski) Statutom AP Vojvodine, kao najvi?im pravnim aktom u Pokrajini, utvr?eno je da su u slu?benoj upotrebi istovremeno sa srpskim jezikom jo? i ma?arski, hrvatski, slova?ki, rumunski i rusinski jezik.

(English) The Statute of AP Vojvodina stipilates that the official languages, besides Serbian, are Hungarian, Slovak, Rumanian, Ruthenian and Croatian.

I believe this proves that there are six official languages of Vojvodina. Boraczek 12:01, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

It is refional language. It means that Hungarian, Slovak, Rumanian, Ruthenian and Croatian are languages with equal rights as Serbian.

I will rephrase it in article.--Avala 12:29, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

China

Huaiwei wrote People's Republic of China and removed the words mainland China with brackets. The reality is laws only govern the 31 provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities to use Mandarin Chinese as the official language. The brackets in fact made the issue clearer. - Privacy 16:24, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Oh? Come to think of it, listing the two SARS in their respective entities seems to suggest that they are seperate countries. Perhaps we should move them under the heading for the PRC, and thereby making the the distinctions clearer.--Huaiwei 18:48, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

They are dependencies (see List of dependent territories), as Aruba, Greenland or Bermuda. - Privacy 18:14, Jan 28 2005 (UTC)

Guoyu

As far as I remember it used to be romanised as Kuo-Yü rather than Guoyu. - Privacy 16:26, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

The local name of Mandarin is Kuo-Yü rather than Guo Yu. ROC doesn't use Pinyin. - Privacy 18:23, Jan 28 2005 (UTC)

Official Languages of Ghana

In the article there are 15 official languages, used in “formal” or “non-formal” education. The following website: [1] lists 9 “government sponsored languages” and the areas were they are spoken. Dose anyone know anything about this? Zntrip 18:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Additional Official Languages

In addition to Ghana the following countries may have additional official language:

Austria: Croatian, Hungarian, and Slovenian and perhaps others are official in some municipalities.

The Central African Republic: Some tribal languages may have official status.

China: There are additional minority languages in some autonomous regions which may have official status.

Italy: There are 4 minority languages that are not included on this list, but I don’t know were they have minority status. (List of Languages of Italy and Italy the note about languages)

The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: There are languages including Albanian, Turkish, Serbian, and Romany, which are official in some municipalities. -- Zntrip 23:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Wales is Not a Country

The term "constituent country" is used to describe the major subdivisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (except for Northern Ireland). None of the constituent countries claim to be independent from the United Kingdom and are not recognized by any foreign state. To list Wales, Scotland, or England on this page would not be proper because they are not real countries, nor do they claim to be. – Zntrip 22:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The difference between Country, Nation and State

Oh dear. I see that zntrip has not bothered to do his homework. Here are the links he will need if he wants to avoid future boo-boos: State, Country, Nation. You see, all three words do not mean the same thing. If they did, there would be no need for three different words. The UK is not a country, but a state, however , because I am not a fundamwentalist like zntrip, I am willing to have a double entry under both UK and Wales. If only he could be that reasonable. I am forthwith reinstating Wales. Here is the deposit he left at my talk page: " == Wales == Please stop this nonsense. Wales is part of the United Kingdom, which is a country. How can Wales be its own country when it is part of the United Kingdom? It can’t. French Polynesia is called a country, but that’s right — its part of France. The article, list of official languages by country, only includes countries that have international recognition and claim to be independent. Please do not put Wales on this page again. – Zntrip 23:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)." Sad, but true.--Mais oui! 23:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC) --Mais oui! 23:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Should this list be compiled in accordance with the list of countries, like many other lists by country? — Instantnood 10:37, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Revisions

I just made a few revisions that I wanted to justify to everyone: (1) reworded the first paragraph and added a definitions section (partly in conformity with Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) and (2) for a few languages, added frequent alternate names.

I also had a few questions to ask:

(1) Within each country's listing, should the dominant official language(s) (e.g. English and French for Canada) be set apart from the rest of the listing (typically consisting of minority languages)?

I mean, it's a bit confusing to get lost in half a dozen minority languages with the internationally-known state-wide language buried half-invisible in the middle.

(2) (Tosk is the official dialect): is there a more technically concise way to phrase this? Such as, (official dialect: Tosk). I'm concerned some may object to the adequacy of the term dialect, even if scientifically correct.

(3) At the risk of stirring up a can of worms (see above), I wanted to talk about China (PRC).

Chinese (statewide) (pointing to Vernacular Chinese) is listed. (Standard) Mandarin is also listed. Does China makes a distinction between these two and offically recognizes both? I could be wrong but my hunch is that it does not. Putting Vernacular Chinese in there is redundant, as it is not officially recognized. Standard Mandarin (Putonghua) is the premier official, state-wide language and the only Chinese language recognized with the exception of regional use for Cantonese. Can we remove Chinese (statewide)?

Unless--is someone putting it there to draw a distinction between Putonghua (technically Standard Mandarin) as the universal written language and Mandarin as a spoken language? (see: Chinese spoken language) But even then, one out of the two almost certainly should go as I suspect only one is officially recognized. Thanks --Dpr 08:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Vernacular Chinese should be removed; I’ll take the liberty of removing it. About Albanian, I read that Tosk was the dialect that the government used, but I don’t think there will be any objection to the use of the term dialect. I don’t think it is necessary to put dominant languages on the top of the list. The languages that have (statewide) after them are the dominant languages. Now about the alternate names, I see to many problems arising, because many languages have different names and I think the page will look too messy with additional names after all the languages. I think the name for languages on the list should be the same as that on the language’s page. (I.e.: Catalan not Valencian.) But I do like the new section at the top. -- Zntrip 16:47, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for taking that liberty ;)! I appreciate your support. About the page becoming messy--well, it's a possibility. My intent was to label a very small number of those states who truly have a very prevalent alternate name (e.g. Pashto)--my intent was not to encourage a proliferation of such alternate names beyond those few cases where it was truly necessary; I certainly had to impose forbearance on myself as well! But I understand what where you're coming from: you may be right. Thanks again! --Dpr 02:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Vernacular Chinese?

**Chinese (official statewide)

Instantnood added this item back into the entry for China. However, does anyone else support this? Wasn't this resolved above? Instantnood, are you asserting that there are two state-wide official languages in China, (1) Putonghua (Standard Chinese or Standard Mandarin) and (2) Vernacular Chinese? --Dpr 04:29, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Dpr I did not notice a discussion over Chinese has started here. As I have explained to Zntrip at her/his talk page, Chinese is one written language, but many spoken languages. Chinese as the written language is official, wheareas Putonghua (or Standard Mandarin), being one of the many spoken Chinese languages, is the official spoken language. — Instantnood 06:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, linguistic articles show that there is not just, in fact, "one written language" of Chinese. There are, actually, many Chinese dialects and many written Chinese languages based on those dialects, though none are nearly as prevalent as Standard Mandarin/Guoyu/Putonghua.

Chinese as the written language is official, wheareas Putonghua (or Standard Mandarin), being one of the many spoken Chinese languages, is the official spoken language.

The "Chinese as the written language" you speak of is, in fact, the written version of Standard Mandarin/Guoyu/Putonghua. Therefore the spoken language and written language are the same. Had Classical Chinese been retained as a written standard, it would be a separate language from spoken Putonghua/Standard Mandarin. Written documents, in a province today are written in Putonghua, even if the people speak a different dialect. This is because the written language is based on Standard Mandarin which is not the native language of the place. I don't think the two can be separated.

If what I say seems incorrect, we can seek guidance on the Chinese language talk page, or identify official Chinese public sector sources which designate what the official language or languages is/are. Thanks. --Dpr 07:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Chinese as a written language is actually not based on Standard Mandarin. Standard Mandarin or Putonghua was defined by the PRC government in 1955 as the official spoken language based on pronunciations in Beijing dialect, and grammar syntax of modern written Chinese [2]. In fact the development of modern written Chinese predated Putonghua. In the Law of the People's Republic of China on National General-purpose Language and Characters 中文 (or 汉语文) and 普通话 are not treated as the same thing. Mandarin or Putonghua itself always refers to the spoken language, and never the written language. — Instantnood 10:20, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

For the record I'm a him. Zntrip 05:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Zntrip, do you mean, "I'm for him"? It does seem that Instantnood is right, though the situation is still a bit complex. --Dpr 06:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Still it is repeatedly removed. — Instantnood 12:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

No I was just saying I'm a male ;) As I have explained to Zntrip at her/his talk page. – Zntrip 03:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Lol. ;-) — Instantnood 05:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Minority languages

Are languages with geographical scope indicated in parentheses (but without specific annotation as minority languages), be assumed to be so (e.g. Slovenian (in Friuli-Venezia Giulia))? Should they be explicity annotated? Thanks --Dpr 04:41, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes and no. Slovenian is an official language in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I just don’t know if the Italian government classifies it as a minority language. In Switzerland, for example, there is no nationwi-, uh, I mean statewide official language, but each canton has one or more official languages. Zntrip 05:41, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Forget what I said, I have a better answer. All languages on this list are official languages. If it has (national) next to it, it is also a national language. If it has the name of a province, territory, etc., next to it, it is a regional language in the specified area(s). If it has (minority language) next to it, then and only then, it is a minority language. Of course, some regional languages may be minority languages, but are not followed by (minority language) such as Slovenian in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. – Zntrip 22:43, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Official Written Languages

Why do we have to have written Chinese on here could someone please explain why the Chinese are special? Other countries have official languages and official written languages; so why Chinese? – Zntrip 03:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Zntrip, as you saw it was me who added that you can address your question to me. The reason is that, as I interpret it, Instantnood just stated above that China has an official written language (Vernacular Chinese or Baihua/Baiwen). Instantnood, please back me up here. The Chinese are special in a manner of speaking due to their unique linguistic history and the nature of their written language. If any other countries have such distinctions, they do in fact belong on the list as well. Thanks --Dpr 04:22, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Dpr is right. Chinese is one written language but many spoken languages, which Mandarin is among one of them. Chinese (as the written language) is the official written language, and Mandarin is the official spoken language. — Instantnood 04:54, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I would strongly question the logic of adding the official writtern script into this list. Singapore officially uses Simplified Chinese for its Chinese writting system, but do you ever see this listed as an official language? Why do you insist on listing V. Chinese, and not S. Chinese, if you know want to include writting systems? What next? Pinyin?--Huaiwei 09:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Vernacular Chinese is not a script (i.e. traditional Chinese vs. simplified Chinese). Vernacular Chinese is modern written Chinese, as opposed to classical Chinese. — Instantnood 09:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

"modern written Chinese". Thanks for the confirmation. Now find us any source which lists "modern written Chinese" as an official language together with Potonghua/Guoyu/Mandarin.--Huaiwei 09:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

You know well Standard Mandarin and Chinese are not the same thing [3]. Is there any source that they are writing in standard Mandarin, which is always a spoken language and never a written language, instead of Chinese? Or are you going to say the two are just the same thing? — Instantnood 10:28, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia attempts to repackage established texts, and is not a venue for original research. I have yet to come across ANY literature which lists V. Chinese as an official language together with Putonghua/Guoyu/Mandarin. Have you offered us anything to verify this claim? It is not so much about how different they are. Do we regularly see writtern scripts being listed as official languages? Do wikipedia have to make an exception? In the same vein, can we add Pinyin, Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese etc to this list?--Huaiwei 10:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Parentheses

Should categories such as minority language be put in separate parentheses from the regional location, or all in one set of parentheses--such as Irish/Gaelic (Northern Ireland only; minority language) OR Irish/Gaelic (Northern Ireland only) (minority language)?--Dpr 04:22, 22 September 2005 (UTC)