User talk:Jayjg/Archive 38

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Thank you to all who participated in my RFA- regardless of whether you supported or opposed, all feedback is important to me. I look forward to proving in the coming months that the trust placed in me by the community is not misplaced. Mizu onna sango15

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		The Mizu onna sango15 Barnstar
		Thank you to all who participated in my RFA- regardless of whether you supported or opposed, all feedback is important to me. I look forward to proving in the coming months that the trust placed in me by the community is not misplaced. —Mizu onna sango15Hello!

ANI

Your actions are being discussed at an AN/I report. The user who filed this report did not see fit to inform you of this. NoCal100 (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)i

Jayjg WP:OTRS ticket 2008030910010087 extremely questionable

At this diff User:Jayjg created a REDIRECT of David Abrahams (Labour party donor) to 2007 Labour party donation scandal noting (per WP:BLP1E and WP:OTRS ticket 2008030910010087 . Take both seriously) I have a big problem with this for a number of reasons:

• David Abrahams has been the subject of hundreds of articles because of his involvement in 2007 Labour party donation scandal but he also is a wealthy business man with others stories past and future about him. There were at least six stories about him found through NEWS.GOOGLE just today (12/11/08) (and several hundred that may have mentioned him linked below one of them). One is about an ongoing investigation of him which may result in prosecution. So WP:BLP1E hardly applies.
• What could the OTRS be? He's threatening to sue wikipedia because that's the "only" notable incident in his life?
• A quick look at the article's history also shows little editing activity, so I doubt libelous vandalism is a problem and if it was, this is not a solution. (Note: problematic material removed per request.) CarolMooreDC (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Uh, Carol? This is such an assumption of bad faith that it violates user behavior policy. Please refactor your complaint/concern in a manner that does not constitute a personal attack. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I would echo GWH, and also quote from the page you link to "Using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited, and can result in a block or ban." There can be no doubt that this is what you are doing. Would it take a block or ban to make you stop? IronDuke 22:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Carol Moore is a long-time very problematic editor and I think some sort of forum should be initiated regarding her editing habits and interaction with other editors. The problems start with her userpage, whose apparent purpose is to get visitors to her website and maybe buy some of her stuff and to propagate her anti-Israel views and conspiracy theories. Indeed, her userpage violates numbers 1-10 of Wikipedia:User page#What may I not have on my user page?.

But userpage violations and a general interest in propagating extremist POV's would not be that problematic if not for her way of interacting with other editors. See for example Talk:Rahm Emanuel in which she repeatedly accuses everyone who disagrees with her of working for either Rahm Emanuel, the American government, or the Israeli government. This is an encyclopedia built by the collaborative effort of volunteers. If there's one editor that's antithetical to what we are trying to do here it's the one that goes around accusing everyone who disagrees with her of having COI's.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To quote the first three sentences of the paragraph IronDuke quoted on How to handle conflicts of interest: "The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Another option is to initiate discussion at WP:COIN, where experienced editors may be able to help you resolve the matter without recourse to publishing assertions and accusations on Wikipedia."

I'd say that asking Jayjg if he has a conflict of interest would be "direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline." No? Tiamut^talk 23:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, following Brew's point above, and the shouty, aggressive approach Carol is taking, and her general pattern of editing, and her userpage... she's correct in bringing a problematic editor to light, just not the right one. IronDuke 23:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow... I just now read this (haven't been following Rahm Emmanuel). While Carol demands that editors who disgaree with her reveal their secret jobs working for "the state of Israel, Rahm Emanuel, the Obama campaign, transition or administration, or their cohorts, lobbyists, or assigns," she goes on to say "If you are an Israeli citizen it might be good to reveal that too...." That's extraordinarily offensive... does anyone have thoughts about how to proceed? IronDuke 23:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget about my complaining at that diff about JIDF having a page to attack wiki editors and the whole well known history of outside influence here. You'll have to forgive the dozens of editors who sometimes lose it on this issue.

On that talk page I did strike other comments that others didn't like. Or maybe it was those. Will have to check.

Jayjg and I do have a long history, including times I asked him to delete WP:attack and he didn't. The important thing is trying to correct errors.

Hey, I even read and cleaned up a couple things on my user page. And I am realizing it's dumb to publicize things that don't really sell on CarolMoore.net when I could throw in some photos or videos. Hmmm, is it illegal to list wiki articles I've worked on NOT currently subject to debate? Thanks for your helpful comments. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I won't actually have to forgive them. Being upset by JIDF doesn't give you leave to make what could easily be construed as bigoted remarks. There's no excuse for what you did; can you promise to never do any such thing again? IronDuke 00:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Such a promise is the only thing I can foresee that will keep this from heading to ANI - this was slap-your-mama unacceptable and serious. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I can promise not to break wikipedia policies, to the best of my ability to figure out what they are, including with help of people trying to be helpful. But if policies allow one to deal with issues I will try to figure out how to do them properly. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I just explained to you how what you did -- asking editors to disclose Israeli nationality in order to comment on a talk page -- was wrong. Can you agree that that was wrong, and that you won't do it or anything like it again? I'm not looking for "If I did something wrong then I..." kind of statements. That's generic and meaningless. I'm looking for you to acknowledge what you did, admit it was wrong, and promise not to do it again. Can you do that? I won't ask again. IronDuke 01:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I wasn't sure specifically what you were talking about since I didn't research who said what above. Obviously, it is against wikipedia policies to say "it would be good" if people revealed their nationalities - not to mention to demand they do - on an article talk page. I won't do that again! How's that! CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

That's good, and I take you at your word. It would be also be good if you would strike that through on the Rahm Emmanuel page as well. IronDuke 02:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Fyi I did with edit note: "strike per request since COI questions belong on individual talk pages or WP:COIN" And re-reading COI again, see you have to be careful when doing those that it isn't tied to a conflict dispute in a way to gain upper hand, i.e. esp. by tying question to a dispute post in progress as I did. (And actual employment is the main COI I worry about in articles on several topic areas I work on.) But I do remain confused about how much you can question an editor's patterns of editing for POV. Quess I'll have to read that article separately!! Geez, can I get a law degree out of this?  :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

backdent<----:::::By the way, I posted this whole thing because I thought Jayjg was the editor who originated WP:OTRS ticket 2008030910010087 (per his edit summary) and he was just being coy by not admitting it was him when he mentioned I should contact that person on David Abrahams (Labour party donor) talk page. Wikipedia:OTRS doesn't make it clear where to link ticket numbers and volunteers, so I'm going to ask the Volunteer Coordinator a second time. Unless Jayjg wants to tell me who it is. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Deletion review for Benjamin M. Emanuel

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Benjamin M. Emanuel. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedy-deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. -- Suntag ☼ 19:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Carol....

Thanks for alerting me to this. I think rather than inflame this editor, it may be better to see what (if anything) she does, and then go for large if it is out of order..... what do you think? Best regards --Smerus (talk) 21:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

see also her comment on your comment on my talk-page .....--Smerus (talk) 07:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Nachman of Breslov

Dear Jayjg, I am having an edit war with a new user named Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun, whose very first edit was to dump all kinds of POV information into the above article. Nothing was written in an encyclopedic style and all of it sounded extremely partial to the camp of Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser (a controversial figure in Breslov) and the "Na Na Nachies" (who are not accepted by mainstream Breslov Hasidut). I have the feeling that this user is connected to nanach.net, a pro-Odesser website. If you would like to see his edits, please look in the history under Nachman of Breslov, 16 December, from 14:57 to 17:46.

In response to his edits, I posted a courteous "welcome" on his talk page, followed by an explanation of why his POV edits were more appropriate for the talk page than the article. I also moved all his edits to the talk pages of Nachman of Breslov and Yisroel Ber Odesser. Today, however, this user undid all my revisions and sent me the following note on my talk page:

Dear Yoninah: You have categorically deleted and removed all my input from the page Nachman of Breslov, the reason you gave does not pertain to all the damage you did. It is true that I am new to the Wikipedia, so please explain to me if your removal of my clear, basic, and critical corrections is terminal or are they being processed and I will see the required corrections in the near future? If you are not prepared to make the necessary and obvious corrections (to anyone who saw the original hebrew source and was not drawing from some unreliable translation) please remove the original entry - it is disrespectful to Rabbi Nachman!

Please reinstate the reference I supplied to Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman - which is a page in the wikipedia itself pertaining to how Rabbi Nachman is understood today!

Please do get back to me, I am waiting to hear from you. Especially you should provide me with sufficient reason to deny the mention of Rabbi Israel Dov Odesser in an article about Rabbi Nachman. Rabbi Israel Dov Odesser OB"M was undisputed as one of the most reliabe, if not the most reliable, bearer of the traditions and ways of Rabbi Nachman, and Rabbi Israel Dov Odesser said: I Am Rabbi Nachman (obviously this needs explanation, but also obvious is that it deserves mention), and created a whole group of chasidim loyal to Rabbi Nachman - is that not relevant to Rabbi Nachman - thousands of followers that claim to have a unique understanding of Rabbi Nachman and who almost exclusively publish all Rabbi Nachman's teachings?!!!!!! Please note that today, 20 Kislev, is the birthday of Rabbi Israel Dov Odesser! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (talk • contribs) 15:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your assistance. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 19:31, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Request

Hi Jay. I know that you have some history with a couple of the editors on the I-P pages, and I try to stay out of back and forth discussions, as long as things stay relatively civil and focused more on the article than the other editors. A certain amount of vigorous debate is great. :) However, in my opinion, some of your comments are starting to get a bit too personally focused, and you also seem to be to the point of just copy/pasting more or less the same comment on multiple pages.[1][2][3] There's really no need to reply to everything that others say, is there? Also, telling someone that their opinion is "irrelevant", is not a good way to de-escalate disputes.[4] Please, if you disagree with something, and it's not related to the article, just let it go, or go through another step in WP:DR?--Elonka 16:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)