Talk:Hindi cinema

Edits today

User:Shshshsh is a knowledgeable editor, but he shows WP:OWN by blanket-reverting and by restoring fan-level writing that violates WP:TONE, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. I have changed back only those things, and I hope he'll say that I have carefully gone back over his edits and restored every other one of them.

I hope by this example that Shshshsh will discuss specific edits here first, rather than blanket-revert other editors' well-thought-out, good-faith edits. -- 207.237.223.118 (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't own this article, and I never blank-revert. It's the contrary. You have reverted everyhing to your own revision, and this can be shown by just clicking. Not mine, but the edits of a blocked sockpuppet were back on here - including lists of films and actors as opposed to the sources cited there. The lead is generally not sourced, so everything you removed was sourced throughout. A "poor sister" is a metaphore, there is nothing wrong about it. ourbollywood.com is not a reliable source, the source I was referring to is the book "Encyclopedia of Hindi cinema". Other such edits as tone addressing are fine by me. Shahid • ^Talk2me 14:56, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

If OurBollywood.com, which seems to be a webzine and not a blog, is not a WP:RS in your opinion, that's fine. But the claim in the lead isn't supported by citation anywhere else in the article. Neither is the Hindustan reference -- the Dialogues and lyrics section that mentions the term gives no citation support -- and what might be "more accurate" is POV.

The whole "poor cousin" phrasing is not encyclopedic; I cannot image, say, the Encyclopedia Britannica using conversational language such as that.

The lead currently contains footnotes, while you say, "The lead is generally not sourced," you are removing only my sources and leaving others. The points I found that need sourcing in the lead are not sourced elsewhere in the article that I could find. -- 207.237.223.118 (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said. Give me a few minutes. Shahid • ^Talk2me 15:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks -- and I appreciate the work and additional researching you've done. Despite our initial differences, we listened to and addressed each other's concerns, and reached a middle ground that's made the article better. Thank you for working together on this! With good wishes, -- 207.237.223.118 (talk) 16:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you friend, I appreciate your work. Regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 16:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Definition of Bollywood

According to the article, The term is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.

The question is, who is to say that this is an "incorrect" use? There is no "official" definition for this term. Most usage of this term makes no distinction between Hindi movies and movies made in other Indian languages, or between movies made in one Indian city versus another. Bollywood refers to Indian movies. Typical characteristics include song-and-dance sequences and melodramatic plots, and these characteristics are not limited to movies made in any one Indian city or language. 71.112.85.223 (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)latha

No, you're wrong, there is actually an official definition for this term in books, dictionaries and newspapers. See that. But in short, I am willing to make it clear to you: Bollywood is Hindi cinema, and it is used officially known as a popular term for Hindi cinema, and only Hindi cinema. That's why there are so many terms similar to this like Kollywood, Tollywood and so on. Shahid • ^Talk2me 16:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry you didn't make anything clear to me. There is no government or other official entity whose responsibility it is to define the meaning of this word. Nobody owns this word. The meaning of the word comes from its usage, not from some "official" definition book. Increasingly, and especially as it is used in western media, the word applies to all Indian cinema, not limited to movies made in any one language or city.131.107.0.86 (talk) 22:30, 23 February 2009 (UTC)latha

Sorry, but what you're saying here is literally sheer nonsense. We are not responsible for others' mistakes, and their mistakes can't turn into reality by just being made by them. Mistakes made by western media are theirs, not ours. Wikipedia is here to make everything clear and correct any kind of mistakes and misrepresentations, instead of supporting them. Bollywood is the popular term for Hindi--not Indian--cinema. Period. Shahid • ^Talk2me 07:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Meanings of words change over time and with geography. For example consider the word Yoga. There are many branches of Yoga, but in the west the word refers to Hatha Yoga. There are plenty of other examples where a word used to mean one thing but over time evolved to mean something slightly different. Or it may mean something slightly different in another country. The term football means something different in the USA as opposed to UK for example. You can't just declare that only one usage is correct and all other usages are a "mistake". You can argue that the term Bollywood originated as one thing, or that in a certain area of India it means one thing but you can't claim ownership of the word for the entire universe and for all time. As I said earlier the meaning of the word comes from its usage. The usage may vary from place to place and has evolved and will continue to evolve over time. As I said, increasingly, and especially as it is used in western media, the word applies to all Indian cinema, not limited to movies made in any one language or city. 131.107.0.86 (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)latha

Please cite a source that the meaning of Bollywood has changed. Don't give me sources of people who make mistakes. Media itself is nothing, more so when it makes mistakes and gets too lazy to present things correctly. The Oxford disctionary makes it clear - Hindi. And generally, western media refer to Bollywood as the Mumbai film industry. The meaning of Bollywood is the same elsewhere, only that some mistakenly consider it the entire Indian film industry (when they actually refer to Hindi films only). That's why we are here, to correct their mistakes, and that's what we are doing. Bollywood is not yoga nor football. So I'll repeat for the last time, we are not responsible for others' mistakes, and their mistakes can't turn into reality by just being made by them. Mistakes made by some people in western media are theirs, not ours. Wikipedia is here to present facts, yet make everything clear and correct any kind of mistakes and misrepresentations, instead of supporting them. That's exactly what we did. We stated that it is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole Indian industry, but it's only a part of it. Bollywood is the popular term for Hindi--not Indian--cinema. Period. Shahid • ^Talk2me 09:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You are asking for a source, except "sources of people who make mistakes". So any source that does not agree with you can be dismissed as "a mistake". Princeton University's Wordnet [1] is used by many dictionaries and defines Bollywood as the film industry of India. Dictionary.com [2] also defines Bollywood as the motion-picture industry of India, based in Bombay. These are not "mistakes", this is what the word means. This may not be what the word means where you come from. Again, words may have different meanings in different parts of the world. The wikipedia entry is absolutely correct that the word is often used to refer to the whole Indian industry. In fact that has now become the meaning, according to many dictionaries. We are here to correct your mistake when you claim that the meaning of the word has frozen in time, or that whatever the word means in your particular geographic location should be what it means for the entire world. 71.112.85.223 (talk) 12:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)latha

Even the dictionary you cited says "Based in Bombay". Only the Hindi film industry is based in Bombay, so there you go. Other industries are based in the south. Apart from that, when western sources mention Bollywood, they do it only when referring to actually Hindi films (actually, only Hindi films are viewed in the Us and Earope). The other source you cited says nothing and it's actually unreliable.

You say "The wikipedia entry is absolutely correct that the word is often used to refer to the whole Indian industry." - while it says "The term is often incorrectly used.

Again, we are here to present facts. "Bollywood is Hindi cinema" and "Bollywood is incorrectly used to refer to Indian cinema as a whole". These are facts. "Bollywood is Indian cinema" - this is a mistake. And we are here to correct mistakes. Definition of different terms must be taken from reliable sources, like books and professional dictionaries, not others' mistakes, even if they're common. Bollywood is the popular term used to refer to Hindi films. Other industries in India have their own terms. Yes, Bollywood is mistakenly used to refer to Indian cinema as a whole, but it's incorrect use, and that's what we will write. This is my last reply to you because I find this discussion insignificant and meaningless. All the members WP:INCINE will agree with me on that. Shahid • ^Talk2me 12:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The dictionary I cited says Bollywood is the motion-picture industry of India, did you miss that part? A large percentage of Indian movies are Hindi movies, so one can say the Indian movie industry is based primarily in Bombay, but it is wrong to conclude from this that only Hindi movies are Bollywood or that only movies made in Bombay are Bollywood. If a Hindi movie is made in Chennai or even abroad, does that suddenly mean the movie is not Bollywood? You are also making a lot of unsubstantiated claims: Only Hindi movies are watched in US and Europe? Can you site a source for this? When western sources mention Bollywood they are referring only to Hindi movies? Again what is the source? The opposite is true, and here's a source for that: From Encyclopaedia Britannica [3]: "At the turn of the 21st century, Bollywood was producing as many as 1,000 feature films annually in all of India’s major languages and in a variety of cities." Read that again please: all of India's major languages and in a variety of cities. 71.112.85.223 (talk) 14:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)latha

Yes another mistake, another incorrect use of the term referring to the entire Indian film indusry. Bollywood is a term for Hindi, and only Hindi cinema, and that is its official definition. Different western sources, mostly net sources, use it incorrectly very often. But if you look at books about Bollywood itself, no such thing will be seen. I'm not talking about physical places, but languages, and Hindi is the major language of Mumbai. And when the film industry was conducted, there were only Hindi films made in Mumbai. And what will you say about Kollywood? Tollywood? Are they non-existing in your view? Why were these names created?

Its success abroad led to some incorrect uses, because people abroad don't really differentiate between different Indian languages. And yes, I stand behind the claim that, if not only, at least mostly Bollywood films are watched in the US and Europe. Your source is a proof. The britannica entry mentiones films like Mughal-e-Azam, Sholay, Pakeezah, Jai Santoshi Maa - all of which are Hindi films. It mentiones actors like Ashok Kumar, Raj Kapoor, Amitabh Bachchan, Madhuri Dixit - all of whom are Hindi actors and never acted in films in other languages than Hindi. It actually discussed Hindi cinema. The mistake there is to say that Bollywood produces films in different languages, and here we learn that they talk about the entire cinema of India, while discussing only one of its industries.

The fact that it's mistakenly used by western sources is their problem. We are here to correct others' mistakes, and present facts only. And the fact is that Bollywood is Hindi cinema. Facts never change. And the other fact is that it is often mistakenly used to refer to the Indian industry as a whole. And your source is another example of this mistaken use. Mistakes don't become facts by just being repeated by those who don't really know much about it. And I will ever let such a thing happen on here. BTW, though I've been a major editor of the article, I was not the one to wrote this, many stand behind this article. I don't think you can fight all of them. I'm done. I find this discussion insignificant and meaningless and therefore won't bother to go further with it. Best, Shahid • ^Talk2me 16:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This is just another funny Sh* discussion. It's obvious for all people, that Bollywood is mostly referred to whole Indian cinema, just Sh* is keeping the WP:TRUTH in his holy hands. --91.130.91.92 (talk) 23:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

You are welcome to source it, as we editors of WP:INCINE have through all these three years. Shahid • ^Talk2me 07:18, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Bollywood and plagiarism & Bollywood films and plagiarism ‎ & Hindi films and plagiarism

I've currently put a protection on these articles (currently redirects) that redirect to Bollywood#Plagiarism. The central concern is Bollywood and plagiarism is voiced by Dr. Blofeld (and I paraphrase) as it is a POV fork, potentially libelous (which verges on WP:BLP problems) - see here for initial concerns. I'm starting the discussion here to see if there is any additional information to be offered here (see Talk:Bollywood films and plagiarism for various arguments). Any admin is welcome to unprotect if they see these were done incorrectly, but I do note that I do share Dr. Blofeld's concerns about the BLP issues that could easily be raised in the accusations of plagiarism against the film directors, etc. Skier Dude (talk) 23:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Imagine you are a film director struggling to make an income in a competitive industry. And some mainstream central website like wikipedia reels off lists of films of your films which "they" perceive to be copies of other films. It could affect seriously affect the career of the makers of these films. Especially the screenwriters accused of plagiarism it could even prevent them getting new film work as producers may fear facing possible future law suits if certain screenwriters have a "reputation for plagiarism". It sounds a bit extreme but if you think about it it is a pretty serious issue to allege these films are close copies by law. Sure there might be similarities and a few of them pretty obvious but it is certainly not our place to list them without any references or reliable evidence. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, how exactly does this list of alleged films further the advance of encyclopedic knowledge? Assessing what or what has not been plagiarised is totally original research and a subjective one in that there is no measure to what level it can be described as plagiarism. Some films may have certain scenes which resemble another film others may have very extreme copied central plotlines and the whole works so you can't paint every film as the same level. Its too problematic, especially when this is just an encyclopedia and it is certainly not up to us to pass judgements based on original research. A paragraph on the subject addressing the general problem of plagiarism in the industry in summarised form is the way we should be doing it. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 23:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I am amazed at the kind of illogical argument that is presented here by Dr Blofeld. His argument implies that when struggling film producers plagiarize hollywood films, it is okay or even required of us to look the other way. Please explain to me again why it is not possible to succeed in hindi film industry with original themes? His argument that it is libellous to accuse films of plagiarism doesn't hold water either. Is it libellous to accuse a thief of stealing? It is obvious to anyone who has seen a hollywood film and the bollywood version of it that they are copied. What is wrong with saying that? why are we scared of speaking the truth? It seems Dr. Blofeld has an agenda of protecting bollywood and doesn't really care about the truth.

Pepe962 (talk) 12:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't give a crap about protecting Bollywood in all honesty but I know when articles are pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable, I live thousands of miles away from India in a place in the UK where Bollywood films are unheard of. You are seriously deluded if you think my main goal in life is to serve as to serve in some sort of Bollywood directors protective unit. I am fully aware that many Bollywood films are utter rubbish and are directly copied from Hollywood films, you;d be suprised also by how many Hollywood film are utter rubbish and steal ideas from foreign films actually. I "know" that many Bollywood films are embarrasingly similar to Hollywood films but that doesn't mean it is necessary to list every one of them. Even one of the best western films A fistful of Dollars was stolen from Yojimbo. The question is why do you feel the need to list every film which you think might be copied based on your own suspicions and original research on a site like wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not some fricking watchdog outlet. If you care so much about exposing the "dirty scoundrels" in Bollywood who steal ideas set up your own website or blog exposing them. This is wikipedia an encyclopedia not a forum for listing and discussin copied films. IN all honesty can you imagine any book on general knowledge listing a bunch of films which bear resemblance to others. Its pathetic evne pitiful given that your clear aim as stated on here is to expose copied films and "punish" film directors and screenwriters. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm..so I am seriously deluded? Doesn't that qualify as slander? About plagiarism, Hollywood does it too, so why can't Bollywood do it..is that your argument? How illogical is that? There are plenty of differences between wikipedia and a standard encyclopedia. If you wan't a standard encyclopedia, why not go to a library and borrow instead of trying to build one on the internet. The very basis of the Internet itself is to provide and openly exchange information without any fear or favour. What is wrong with putting a list of copied films? If you feel it is not justified to say that a certain film is copied, you are free in the great tradition of wikipedia to remove that entry from the list, but you on the other hand are hell bent on removing the entire list without leaving any trace evidence.

Pepe962 (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

You are completely missing the point. Plagiarism is common in many film industries across the world, not just Bollywood. Films from pretty much most industries have been accused of copying plot ideas since early film. We are not here to pass moral judgements on whether it is right for Bollywood to do so or Hollywood to do so if you thought I was claming this I suggest you reread what I said, the fact is you felt it was necessary to start listing every single individual film in a table which you thought was copied which is not appropriate when there is no official way in which it can be put forward as fact, it is a subjective matter and films are likely to vary significantly in how much they are plagiarised. How exactly do you measure if a film is plagiarised. Sure many films have similar scenes and plot ideas boy meets girl, girls meets boy, disaster happens broken hearted some scenes may be very similar so this qualifies as plagiarism? Hundreds of Post grunge new rock bands churn out very similar sounding riffs and tunes, plagiarised? There are thousands of films in which you could claim are plagiarised but how exactly does this improve wikipedia? Yes it is true that we are not paper so our scope of covering articles is far greater. However this does not mean we are a trash can for everything and anything especially if articles are potentially libellous and could potentially affect the lives of living people. You have not given me one reason why you think lists of copied films are even remotely encyclopedic and why the average wikipedia user could give a monkeys about it. Your explanation is that these directors need to be exposed and we must not hide the truth. The paragraph in the main article more than clearly states that plagiarism is a major problem in Bollywood but to start assessing every film in a list with its own articles is completely inappropriate. Not only this but in individual film articles providing you give reliable references you can mention that the film was accused of plagiarism as it is in the right context to do so, hardly hiding it. There ar elikely 1000s of films which bear resemblance at varying degrees but who are you to assess exactly what is plagiarised or what is not? Wikipedia is here to expose existing knowledge not original research based on personal observations. Now I've had enough of discussing such a pointless topic as this. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

1) If there are films from other films industries which are copied, they should be listed too. Why hide that information? Putting a list of copied films in not passing moral judgment, it is just providing information to whoever is interested. I agree, mentioning that a film is copied is a subjective matter and not objective, but there are plenty of such topics on wikipedia. I would go so far as to say that every topic on wikipedia can be assessed subjectively. Wikipedia is not a scientific paper. No mathematical proof can be provided that a film is copied, but does that mean we should stop providing this information?

2) Some topics are 'encyclopedic' while others are not? How do we define which ones are 'encyclopedic'? If only topics which can be found in an standard encyclopedia are 'encyclopedic' then wikipedia should be 10% of its size.

3)What about the lives of people whose original work was plagiarized? You seem unconcerned about their lives.

I am tired of this discussion too. I request Skier Dude to be fair and restore the Bollywood and Plagiarism page.

Pepe962 (talk) 13:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh really? What a nice request! It was a good decision. We've had enough of your disruptive editing, Pepe. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Everything about Bollywood belongs in this page. And again, it is an encyclopedia, no lists of plagiarised films will be included. Everything should be written in prose where relevant. This is relevant in the pages which are plagiarised. Obviously if you cite sources.:) Other than that, a list of films is irrelevant, more so when it's unsourced and violates WP:NOR. Shahid • ^Talk2me 13:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Its really not a case of which one of us is right. You're not seeing things from a wikipedia perspective. The article failed the article criteria on just about every score as Shahid explained to you and you have refusued to accept what more people have said than yourself as clearly shown in the editing history by your disruption to various people. Skier chose the course of action not because either of us felt a certain way but because of the problems having an unsourced list could potentially create and its history of disruption which from a neutral pount is very clear and if Skier hadn't of locked it any other admin such as Yellow Monkey etc would have. I couldn't care less about the side of the plagiariser or the one who has been "robbed", wikipedia is not here to be sympathetic to either view or side although if it is potentially libellous and speculative information is presented as "fact" then I take it very seriously. Please try to see this site from a different perspective rather than chasing your own beliefs that plagiarism is wrong and the culprits should be identifed, Its not what we are about, any good editor can see this. It basically sums it up in Wikipedia:No original research which your list was clearly guilty of and its not only a few of us, this is a widely accepted guidleine to what should be included on here. Several paragraphs could probably we written on it in the main article in prose providing it is well written, balanced and sources as a general evaluation of the problem itself not going into reeling off EVERY single film. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

aaah...my old friend Shahid is here. His hobby is to revert back everyone else's work quoting some WP:XYZ. He thinks it is not disruptive editing as long you correctly/incorrectly mention WP:XYZ. Both of you seem to be forgetting that the very spirit of wikipedia is collaborative working. This means extend/enhance/correct each other's work and not to remove complete pages of information or extensive work done by other people.

Hiding information is not in the spirit of wikipedia. There is no WP:XYZ for this.

Pepe962 (talk) 14:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Extensive work? You have less than 20 edits in two years. Hardly extensive. Unless of course you count the many sock accounts you operate under all on one thing, Bollywood and plagiarism. Information exists on the annual sales of tampons in supermakrkets in the UK. Do we have specific articles realing of figures by year and which colours sell more? No. We choose not the have an article on it not because we hide information but because to normal people it has no encyclopedic value or relevance. Add to that a distinct lack of sources an reliable evidence to back up your claim and it makes your claims completely inappropriate. What part about no original research don't you get? Perhaps you ought to take a break and listen to some Hanson, good ole home boys from Tulsa eh? Actually MmmBop was similar to a British band's song in the early 1990s, does this mean we start listing all of Hanson's and plagiarised songs? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Bollywood and Plagiarism page has been around and edited over several years. To get to its current form (before the page was deleted) involved collaboration by many people. The only 'contribution' from Shahid has been to blindly revert back changes as is his hobby as I mentioned previously.

I admit that I have been lazy to login before making some edits, but remember that wikipedia allows this. The allegation that I am a sock is a completely baseless attack on my character. I do not hold multiple user accounts.

Pepe962 (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)