Talk:Thomas Pynchon

Jules Siegel writes to Wikipedia

I moved this part of the article, edited in by Jules Siegel to this talk page:

Siegel has denied that the article constitutes some form of "revenge" on his part.

Siegel comments, "Some corrections: I never said that the dental work was to improve his appearance. The issue of "revenge" is ridiculous and more than a little insulting. In the first place, there was no reason for it, as I got the girl. Chrissie never ran off with him. That was just a stupid title that Playboy thought would appeal to the masses. They had a brief (although very intense) affair, not uncommon at the time (or any time, human nature being what it is). She and I got over it very quickly and we had a child together and lived together for another six years. We broke up for reasons that had nothing to do with him. More importantly, as I said in the article (which is really very affectionate, and not at all hostile), Chrissie and I were firm believers in one of the most hallowed ethical concepts of our time: people are not property. My previous comments about this were removed by someone. If these are now removed I will make a complaint to the moderators and ask that the article be locked. Is that clear?"

I noticed you are a contributor here now Mr. Siegel, thanks for joining in, we dig your stay. Please create an account for yourself too so we know when you're editing us. I took out the fact you pointed out as incorrect, that's the way we commonly do it here. The non-issue regarding your article in Playboy is better off here at the talk page, since Wikipedia strives to contain only valid and verified facts, not discussions of said facts as such, that is what the talk page is indeed for.

Thanks for popping in and hope you will keep editing us, please add in more things to this and other articles where you have superior information on Tom. Nixdorf 20:50, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Other stuff

While "seemingly-absurd but thoroughly erudite" might be something you'd see on the back of a paperback novel, it is hardly a classy way to describe any novelist. One does not say of Arnold Schoenberg that he wrote "seemingly unlistenable but actually quite cleverly composed musical works." Nor should you summarize the work of this particular author with the phrase: Thomas Pynchon is a seemingly-absurd-but-thoroughly-erudite American novelist. American novelist will do just fine, I think.

Absurd in this context means containing absurdist situations; it is not a description of the quality of his work. Mintguy 11:16, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Regardless, absurd viz "absurdist situations" is not a description that I would apply to Pynchon's work as a whole, and even if some of his work is absurdist (which it may or may not be; I wouldn't go to that much trouble) it is pure junk to have said "SEEMINGLY absurd." I mean, it is or it isn't. And it sure ain't Absurdist fiction.

It is certainly possible for something to appear to a certain way without actually being so, that's why the word "seem" is in the language. I purposely chose that phrasing because someone who picks it up in the bookstore, or hears about it from friends who might have started on one, will mostly like have the erroneous impression that his works are absurdist fiction. The lead paragraph needs to be a succinct expression of what is interesting about the subject; just "American novelist" doesn't say what differentiates Pynchon from a thousand other novelists with articles here. It wouldn't hurt to have a longer characterization of his corpus; one of my books sums it up in about two sentences, which is not too long for the lead, but I don't have time to try my hand at it today. Stan 17:13, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

are you sure that Pynchon's next work is about Sofya Kovalevskaya? There was just a novel about her called -Beyond the Limit: The Dream of Sofya Kovalevskaya- by Joan Spicci.

it would be very cool if he wrote about her, i just havn't found any varification about it.

There is what is apperently a picture of Pynchon on the German version of this page. It would be nice if someone translated the source and linked it to the english version.

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Wasn't there an article in Esquire years ago by a Cornell grad entitled something like "Where is Thomas Pynchon and Why Has He Run away with My Wife?" Or maybe "Who is Thomas etc." I was living overseas at the time and although I had greatly liked his first two books I hadn't realized that he had become such a notorious recluse. Maybe someone could dig up info about this article to put in the WP article. Evidently he really had vanished with this guy's wife.... Hayford Peirce 04:12, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Doesn't Pynchon (most likely) live in New York instead of Northern California?

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Pynchon is secretive and avoids media attention. But rumors on his social life are consistently upbeat: he gets around, travels, sees people, and all that. Howard Hughes became a recluse.--192.35.35.34 17:26, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Protection

The page is temporarily protected due to the emerging edit war. If anyone is unhappy with the protection, they are urged to contact me privately. Danny 16:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

See User talk:200.95.39.125. User:200.95.39.125 may actually be Jules Siegel (the IP resolves to a Mexican ISP, and Siegel apparently lives in Mexico, so it's possible). -℘yrop (talk) 18:07, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

--I don't see any signs of an edit war in the history. What is the dispute about? --Jleon 19:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Neither do i, but see User talk:Danny#Thomas_Pynchon_protection and User talk:Pyrop#Thomas_Pynchon. Danny has told me that Jimbo and he have confirmed that User:200.95.39.125 is an interested party, and that the protection "was based on a request from interested parties." We can't really do anything except wait... -℘yrop (talk) 21:16, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

If it ever gets unprotected, someone should throw in the following quotation, which I found in Arthur Salm's "A screaming comes across the sky (but not a photo)", San Diego Union-Tribune 8 February 2004.

The man simply chooses not to be a public figure, an attitude that resonates on a frequency so out of phase with that of the prevailing culture that if Pynchon and Paris Hilton were ever to meet—the circumstances, I admit, are beyond imagining—the resulting matter/antimatter explosion would vaporize everything from here to Tau Ceti IV.

Wuv, Anville 8 July 2005 20:03 (UTC).

I have unprotected the article since it has been protected for over a month. Gamaliel 8 July 2005 20:14 (UTC)

Someone on 200.95.39.125 definately tried very desperately to remove any Jules Siegel references off the page, they have all been restored now, if that person is Siegel himself or even Thomas Pynchon I don't know. Nixdorf 21:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

BTW, the removed paragraphs were the following:

Relatively little is known about Thomas Pynchon as a private person, however in the March 1977 issue of Playboy Magazine a Cornell University friend, writer Jules Siegel published a lengthy article entitled Who is Thomas Pynchon, and why did he take off with my wife? about his relation to Pynchon, including such tidbits as the fact that Pynchon had a complex for his teeth, was nicknamed Tom at Cornell, and that he had an affair with Siegel's wife.

• Lineland: Mortality and Mercy on the Internet's Pynchon-L@Waste.Org Discussion List by Jules Siegel
• March 1977 Playboy article by college classmate Jules Siegel, "Who Is Thomas Pynchon... And Why Did He Take Off With My Wife?", part 1 and part 2

Nixdorf 21:22, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

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The MacArthur Foundation <http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/complete_list_3.htm> gives 1988 as the date of TP's fellow award, not 1989, as stated in article.

Paris Hilton?

I am extremely hard pressed to believe Paris Hilton would recognize the name Thomas Pynchon. More likely the writers of the O.C. (who do have some degree of wit) have, and thought they were being clever.

Where does the rumor about Pynchon moving back to California come from? I haven't been able to verify that such a rumor exists (or is accessible to me, anyway).

I agree. The part about Paris Hilton being an active participant in cultural repartee should be removed sans proof. 129.105.35.120 22:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Vineland

I note that the detailed description of Vineland was removed. OK, I can see the reasoning behind that, and it makes enough sense. I pulled the text out of the revision history and pasted it into the Vineland article, where it may be more appropriate. It actually dropped in rather nicely.

Best wishes, Anville 15:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yearbook Picture

I'd like to propose to remove the silly and outdated picture of Pynchon from the page, regardless if there is another image. Regardless if that is an actual picture of him, it is certainly not what he looks like today. An article on Pynchon would be more accurate, fitting, and respectfull without it. It's bad enough there's a bit about the poor man having a dental-complex. Besides, that picture is literally all over the net for those who wish to see it, and adds nothing to an article on Pynchon's obscurity or writing abilities. 129.105.35.120 22:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

What does a fifty year old high school yearbook picture tell us about a living author? I would remove this myself, but I see it's been deleted before and restored. I hope someone has a reason other than "it was my idea" for keeping this in. Orthografer 16:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• • I agree. Does three a consensus make? I'm taking it out. If you want it back, please post here so we can discuss it rather than just reverting back and forth. Zafiroblue05 05:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The photo is all over the net for those who wish to see it, in the same way that much of the info in this article is all over the net for those who wish to see it. If the photo doesn't need to be here, why does the article? Your argument also assumes that someone who knows nothing of Pynchon except for a name or a link from another article will come here and automatically understand why there is no photo of a living author. So, if the photo goes, there needs to be an explanation posted in an obvious place for Pynchon-newbies. Of course, it would just be easier to post a 50 year old photo and explain in the caption why the article uses a 50 year-old photo than to none at all (if only because new Wikipedians will come in, see an article w/o a photo & add one in order to be helpful). Finally, a more appropriate photo for the article than the one recently removed would be here. proteus71 14:00, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)
      • I think there's a certain notability to Thomas Pynchon that warrants the article's presence in an encyclopedia (clearly - but this is WHY this article exists despite its content being easily gathered from a Google search). But I would say that there's NOT anything notable about that picture - in fact, Pynchon's opposition to the publishing of his photos is what is notable - and what better to represent that than by not having a picture at all (and discussing why not). Putting up the yearbook picture (or any other decades-old picture) is, to some extent, making notable what is inherently NOT. After all, that yearbook picture (or the Navy picture, etc.) would never be looked at if Pynchon was pro-photo. Zafiroblue05 05:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think the photo should be left in unless you have a suitable replacement. It is directly relevant to the article, and the lack of a more recent photo is a biographical detail addressed by the article. Shoehorn 02:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• The photo should be left out; the lack of a photo (recent or not) is suitably explained by the article. There's nothing inherently informative about a photo attached to an article about a novelist (as opposed to a photo in an article about an actor, or a politician--someone whose public recognizability is part of their fame). It's not a good photo, it's so ancient that it's not an accurate photo, and simple common decency to a man who doesn't like having his photo published should take priority over merely adding to the article every possible item we can. --User:Jod
  • Along those same lines, I doubt the man would appreciate having trivial bits of his life put into an encyclopedia article in the first place. Common decency? I think you need to disance yourself from the article a little. Is the photo relevant? Yes. Are we suggesting someone track the author down and take his photo by force? No. Shoehorn 02:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • If we're going to have an article based on what Pynchon wants, then we should extend the same courtesy to all other living authors. Rowling, Oates, Marquez, King, all of them should be contacted to see if they approve of their entires. Entries for deceased authors will be cared for by their fans. Criticism, unwanted photos, embarrassing personal data can all be shunted aside to other web sites. Wikipedia can become just like the 14th edition Britannica, where the editors worked very diligently to see than no one was offended. Of course, the end result of their efforts was that the 14th edition was Britannica's biggest failure. Conclusion: to some extent we are obliged to ignore what Pynchon wants. This article is not for him, it's for the rest of the English-speaking world. We do our part by not using a recent photo or encouraging others to take photos, or publishing his home address, etc. But we are not obliged to indulge his every quirk. I'm still in favor of the photo I suggested a few days ago. proteus71 16:48, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• These are both hyperbolical exaggerations of my point. What I said was that, given that the photo is not very good nor relevant, there is no reason not to follow the dictates of courtesy: that his reasonable preference be respected.

Journey into the Mind of P...

Nothing on the movie? I havent seen it but someone must have. If its garbage, thats ok, say its garbage, but you cant just ignore it.

• Unless someone's seen it, no one can really write about it, right? Zafiroblue05 05:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)