User talk:Thrax

Welcome

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• How to edit a page
• Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
• Picture tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Naming conventions
• Manual of Style
• The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
• Merging, redirecting, and renaming pages
• If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Wikipedia:Topical index.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) will produce your name and the current date. You should always sign talk pages, but not articles. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Ann Heneghan ^(talk) 18:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

German pronunciation of "g"

You will not be able to teach me anything here, German this is my first language. Morever, the German phonology is well documented. The name "Wenger" is pronunced [veŋɡɐ]. In fact, there is a velar fricative in some German dialects. For example, in Berlin, the word Wagen is pronounced [vaγn̩]. This is a recent development form an original plosive. You can look up the ethymology of most words of the main Indoeuropean languages in textbooks. Go to the library and do some research. You will also be interested in Spanish phonology where the plosive-fricative transition is in full swing, the fricatives appear as approximants. Andreas 17:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Gimm's Law dictates that gamma must came first and hard g later. Unless you can provide me with gramophone recordings from 100 years ago to prove that gamma did not exist in Spanish or German at this time I shall assume that gamma was the original pronunciation of g, since that is what I am hearing from the sound of the majority of German speakers, and that hard English g is the recent development. --Thrax 18:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Germans pronounce German with a German accent whereas the English pronounce German with an English accent and vice versa. If both languages sounded alike then there would be no accents therefore German g and English g are not the same sound. Greek spoken by Italians sounds closer to Greek spoken by Greeks than Greek spoken by the English and this is why I refuse to accept the English pronunciation of ancient Greek as being either scientific or accurate. The English pronunciation of Greek is the least Greek sounding of any European pronunciation of Greek so must be wrong. --Thrax 18:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean *gʰ→g. Grimm's law#In detail. The example given isGans/ Greek χήν. why do you think it has something to do with gamma? Andreas 18:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

That's right. gH (the symbol does not display properly but I assume that's what you mean) is the equivalent of gamma. Look at Dionysios Thrax description of the Mediae which places the sound of γ midway between the sounds of κ and χ. Unaspirated k is kappa which is pronounced g or j (English j not the IPA y sound) in Cypriot dialect which is the most indicative of ancient and Mycenaean Greek and h is hi therefore gamma is gH (actually its somewhere in between the sound of g and H). By Grimm's Law German g cannot evolve back to gH since gH is how it started. Grimms Law should be written more fully as gH > γ > g > k > kH > h (where k is un-aspirated k and kH is aspirated k). --Thrax 18:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The table looks at the correspondence Greek <χ> (χήν) -German <g> (Gans). Where is the <χ> in your sequence? Andreas 18:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Greek χ is h (gH > γ > g > κ > kH > χ = gH > γ > g > k > kH > h). --Thrax 19:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

This table deals with evolution from proto-Indo-European but since the Goths originally used the Greek alphabetic script to write their language in the Gothic Bible and incorporated many Greek words into their language Germanic g must have still been pronounced as γ in the 5th century AD in order to correspond to the symbol for gamma in the Greek script and in Greek words that were introduced into Germanic unaltered. --Thrax 19:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm - interesting. Are all these phonological changes documented somewhere, or is it your own theory? There is something I do not understand: When you refer to Grimm's law, you wrote gH > γ > g > k > kH > h. Does this mean that proto-indoeuropean gH became h in German? The the goose should be "Hans" in German. (Maybe someone's pet goose is actually called "Hans"). Seriously, I am not really qualified to have an independent opinion about this, I have to follow what the experts say. There should be enough experts in Indoeuropean phonology aroud in Wikepedia that might be willing to discuss these very interesting questions with you. Andreas 20:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European gH became g in Germanic, h in Latin, h in Sanscrit and h (χ) in Greek, whereas proto-Indo-European g becomes k in Germanic and proto-Indo-European k becomes h in Germanic. Goose in Greek is χηνα which is gans in German and 'anser in Latin (aspirated a) so this follows Grimms Law. The Proto-Indo-European root is *gHans [1]. In English *gHans is also Hen as well as goose so Hen must have come from Greek χηνα. --Thrax 22:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

See Proto-Indo-European Phonology --Thrax 22:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Diphthongs

The passage that you deleted sait that in classical times ει was not a diphthong any more, but a digraph. I do not understand why you contest this. Andreas 21:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I am unsure what diphthongs actually were. Dionysios Thrax (100 BC) says that there were only 6 diphthongs and ei was one of them. If that is correct the above statement is either incorrect or the definition of a diphthongs in modern linguistics does not correspond to the term Dionysios Thrax is using. Are diphthongs testified to before Dionysios Thrax's time and if so by who and how many and what were they supposed to be. --Thrax 21:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Dionysios Thrax's definition of diphthongs is the same as the colloquial meaning in Modern Greece does not correspond to definition of a diphthongs in modern linguistics. Andreas 19:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

So am I to take it that Dionysios Thrax defined diphthongs as two letters pronounced as one ? If this is the case why should I take anything said by modern linguists seriously since it is obvious that they cannot understand the meaning of basic ancient Greek texts on grammar and they are making it up as they go along to suit the ends of their ethnocentric theories which are all based on imposing Germanic pronunciation on every other indo-European languages by deliberately ignoring their pronunciation by their native speakers. Have they even considered that their ideas on the pronunciation of proto-Germanic might be wrong and that it could have been pronounced exactly like modern Greek. --Thrax 19:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

What if the original proto-indo-European so-called stops were pronounced as pH, tH and kH for the Psila as in Glottalic theory, β, θ and γ for the Mediae as in modern Greek and bH, dH and gH for the Dasea as in standard proto-indo-European theory. Do you think that this would be a pretty good compromise between all camps ? --Thrax 19:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

This would be own research. Andreas 19:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies

I wish to apologise my presumption in translatin the text, i was probably influenced by my point of view, and for sure thinking that as a classical latin text not considering so many changes in syntax and style wich inficiated my translation, F.S.S.D (Filippus suo salutem dat ) Philx Philx 17:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

No worries. I enjoyed doing the translation. --Thrax 19:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

err, not to make problems, you were right with "instead B vita, beta" but you translated Quod sciret erasmus, as "wich might know erasmus", but as far my mind concers, quod sciret, being a causal it had to be translated knowing erasmum, because that subjunctive is not a potentional or dubious subjunctive, but a cosecutio modorum attracted conjunctive, considering that all is a oratio obliqua, so all must be subordinate as rected by an infinitive. Or i'm messing all around again? thanks for a your reply. F.S.S.D Philx Philx 21:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I hoped in a your reply but, fine thanks don't minf F.S.S.D Philx Philx 19:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, knowing erasmus is right. --Thrax 19:18, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Philx Philx 10:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

phonology

I think that article has too many tags and "problems". Let's avoid adding new "tags" (I'm talking about the see the discussion link). Thanks. If you know of any sources other than Caragounis that I could look up, let me know (I believe all of us can contribute for a NPOV and good article). +MATIA ☎ 12:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

3RR Block

Thrax, I am blocking you for 24 hours. You have reverted the Ancient Greek pronunciation 9 times in less than 2 hours, despite numerous requests for you to stop, and very patient explanations from several editors as to why your source isn't of acceptable quality for an encyclopedia. After the block expires, please try to work with the other editors to reach a reasonable compromise. kwami 22:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)