Talk:The Great Escape (film)

Historical inaccuracies

The Historical inaccuracies section could be rife with original research, since the majority of the entries lack citations to reliable sources. If accurate and verifiable, items in this section could add much to a more mature Production section; we should start merging vetted material in Production as soon as possible. This would also address the misnomer "inaccuracies", since they really aren't: the changes are part of the creative adaptation process.

Also, such a move would eliminate the IMDb look to this article (at this point it's difficult to say whether this article copied the Trivia section of IMDb or vice versa; either way, it doesn't say much for either).
Jim Dunning | talk 16:41, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

A number of the entries don't actually appear to have anything to do with the film itself and may be better suited for placement in the article about the Escape (Stalag Luft III). I've copied them here for possible future use there or here.
Jim Dunning | talk 00:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Only 76 of the projected 200 men escaped while an air raid occurred; only three POWs escaped Germany into neutral territory: the Norwegians Per Bergsland and Jens Müller who escaped to Sweden, and the Dutchman Bram van der Stok who reached Spain.

• The Gestapo killed 50 of the recaptured POWs, in breach of the Geneva Convention. Such actions constituted a war crime. Most of the victims were driven to isolated spots in small groups and shot through the back of the head with pistols, rather than being machine-gunned en masse as depicted in the film. After the allied victory in May 1945, a war crimes investigation led to the arrest, imprisonment and in some cases execution of those responsible for the killings. Even before the end of the hostilities, the British Government was aware that 50 recaptured POWs had been killed: Herbert Massey (senior officer at Stalag Luft III) was repatriated to the UK during the war due to serious ill-health. After arriving back in the UK, he immediately informed his fellow officers what had happened. The actual murders, and the manhunt for the perpetrators after the war, is outlined in the book Exemplary Justice.

• There is also the fact that the figure of 50 was a compromise between Hitler and the German High Command. Hitler wanted all the recaptured POWs shot, but the High Command was afraid of what would happen to German POWs held by the Allies, especially if the Red Cross withdrew its support for German POWs.

• No members of the American armed forces actually escaped. While many had worked on the construction of both Tom and Harry, by the time of the escape through Harry the American prisoners had all been moved to a separate compound. However, John Dodge, an American in the British Army, was one of the escapees.

• The stealing of personal possessions such as boats and bicycles was not recommended since escapers could face criminal charges if recaptured.

• POWs who came up with plans to escape needed permission to proceed from the Escape Committee. This was in order to avoid conflicting escape plans from canceling each other: an escaping prisoner being caught by the guards could cause the alarm to be raised and ruin another escape attempt — thus the scene where Hilts and Ives need Bartlett's permission before proceeding with their plan.

• Paul Brickhill, who didn't go through the tunnel, claimed that, due to a miscalculation, the tunnel ended short of the tree line. According to Alan Burgess, in The Longest Tunnel (1990, Grove Press), the tunnel did reach the forest, yet it was so sparse it provided insufficient cover. The escape had to proceed or the forged identity and travel papers would become invalid.

• Blythe's blindness would have probably been serious enough that he would have been eligible for the repatriation through the International Red Cross under Articles 68 to 74 of the Geneva Convention of 1929, and thus he would have had no need to escape.

• Among the prisoners who tried to escape was Paramasiva Prabhakar Kumaramangalam who went on to become the 7th chief of the Indian army.

WP:OR and WP:V concerns

While attempting to locate support for some of the numerous uncited "facts" in this article, I came across something that may underscore the importance of locating reliable sources for copy before adding it to the article (as well as journalistic integrity).

No members of the American armed forces actually escaped. While many had worked on the construction of both Tom and Harry, by the time of the escape through Harry the American prisoners had all been moved to a separate compound. However, John Dodge, an American in the British Army, was one of the escapees.

This passage was in the "Historical inaccuracies" section up until a few days ago when I relocated it to the Talk page because it was unsupported and was not about the film. In trying to vet it I found an article in the Daily Express, "The Truth About the Great Escape". It contains this passage—

However, perhaps one of the greatest liberties taken is the suggestion that members of the American armed forces were among the 76 escapees, of whom 73 were recaptured by the Gestapo. In reality, while American officers had worked on the construction of the tunnels, by the time of the escape all the American prisoners had been moved to a separate compound. The only American to make it out was John Dodge, a soldier in the British Army.

Initially, I thought the WP passage was an uncited reference to the Daily Express article until I checked the dates and found the WP entry pre-dates the newspaper article – significantly. I then looked into when the WP entry first appeared and found the original form was cited to an online "encyclopedia" whose editors are the general public and provides no citations. This the material was added to the WP article from an unreliable source and, in turn, creates the possibility that the WP passage made it into a newspaper article. Now it's certainly possible that the Express journalist found the information elsewhere and the similarity between the two passages is coincidence. It's also possible the two passages share a common provenance I've been unable to find. However, if the journalist did use WP as a source, then this highlights the importance of relying on solid sources and the unforeseen consequences of not being careful when adding information to an article.
Jim Dunning | talk 02:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the Express article was sourced from Wikipedia. You are absolutely correct in your conclusion that articles must be referenced more thoroughly and more carefully, and in three or four years you will have been proved right. But for now you are swimming against the tide. "In the battle between you and the world, bet on the world". -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Oblique Reference to "Great Escape"

• In 2/12 Hogan's Heros "Will the real Adolf Please Stand Up?" Klink remarks about how escapes from two other POW camps must be part of a master Plan to create Kaos by a mass POW Escape all at once..............

OK, but there were load of POW camps (or Stalags), and escape plans were commonplace, mass or otherwise. In the absence of a reliable source that makes the comparison you seek to make, this is original research and impermissible here. Sorry. --Rodhullandemu 21:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Purpose of Notes section?

What is the purpose of the Notes section containing dialogue from the film?
Jim Dunning | talk 14:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I removed it, but if it is of some importance, its text is still maintained in History.
Jim Dunning | talk 19:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Apparently an editor was translating German and French dialog in the film and documenting it here for readers' benefits. Unusual. Too bad there was no explanation in the article section or on this page. I still don't see how it fits into the format of a film article. If anyone has some thoughts they should feel free to discuss it here. The hard work is impressive, but unusual.
Jim Dunning | talk 00:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Fact vs fiction

A separate article — The Great Escape (film) fact versus fiction — has recently been created. Besides concerns with WP:NOR, WP:SYN, and WP:RS, and that much of it introduces problems with Film Style Guidelines regarding treatment of adaptations and inclusion of real-world perspective, why isn't this effort being done in this article whose Production section is in such sad shape? Properly done, this material would significantly improve the film article.
Jim Dunning | talk 14:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)