Talk:Thomas Pynchon

Jules Siegel writes to Wikipedia

I moved this part of the article, edited in by Jules Siegel to this talk page:

Siegel has denied that the article constitutes some form of "revenge" on his part.

Siegel comments, "Some corrections: I never said that the dental work was to improve his appearance. The issue of "revenge" is ridiculous and more than a little insulting. In the first place, there was no reason for it, as I got the girl. Chrissie never ran off with him. That was just a stupid title that Playboy thought would appeal to the masses. They had a brief (although very intense) affair, not uncommon at the time (or any time, human nature being what it is). She and I got over it very quickly and we had a child together and lived together for another six years. We broke up for reasons that had nothing to do with him. More importantly, as I said in the article (which is really very affectionate, and not at all hostile), Chrissie and I were firm believers in one of the most hallowed ethical concepts of our time: people are not property. My previous comments about this were removed by someone. If these are now removed I will make a complaint to the moderators and ask that the article be locked. Is that clear?"

I noticed you are a contributor here now Mr. Siegel, thanks for joining in, we dig your stay. Please create an account for yourself too so we know when you're editing us. I took out the fact you pointed out as incorrect, that's the way we commonly do it here. The non-issue regarding your article in Playboy is better off here at the talk page, since Wikipedia strives to contain only valid and verified facts, not discussions of said facts as such, that is what the talk page is indeed for.

Thanks for popping in and hope you will keep editing us, please add in more things to this and other articles where you have superior information on Tom. Nixdorf 20:50, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Other stuff

While "seemingly-absurd but thoroughly erudite" might be something you'd see on the back of a paperback novel, it is hardly a classy way to describe any novelist. One does not say of Arnold Schoenberg that he wrote "seemingly unlistenable but actually quite cleverly composed musical works." Nor should you summarize the work of this particular author with the phrase: Thomas Pynchon is a seemingly-absurd-but-thoroughly-erudite American novelist. American novelist will do just fine, I think.

Absurd in this context means containing absurdist situations; it is not a description of the quality of his work. Mintguy 11:16, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Regardless, absurd viz "absurdist situations" is not a description that I would apply to Pynchon's work as a whole, and even if some of his work is absurdist (which it may or may not be; I wouldn't go to that much trouble) it is pure junk to have said "SEEMINGLY absurd." I mean, it is or it isn't. And it sure ain't Absurdist fiction.

It is certainly possible for something to appear to a certain way without actually being so, that's why the word "seem" is in the language. I purposely chose that phrasing because someone who picks it up in the bookstore, or hears about it from friends who might have started on one, will mostly like have the erroneous impression that his works are absurdist fiction. The lead paragraph needs to be a succinct expression of what is interesting about the subject; just "American novelist" doesn't say what differentiates Pynchon from a thousand other novelists with articles here. It wouldn't hurt to have a longer characterization of his corpus; one of my books sums it up in about two sentences, which is not too long for the lead, but I don't have time to try my hand at it today. Stan 17:13, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

are you sure that Pynchon's next work is about Sofya Kovalevskaya? There was just a novel about her called -Beyond the Limit: The Dream of Sofya Kovalevskaya- by Joan Spicci.

it would be very cool if he wrote about her, i just havn't found any varification about it.

There is what is apperently a picture of Pynchon on the German version of this page. It would be nice if someone translated the source and linked it to the english version.

---

Wasn't there an article in Esquire years ago by a Cornell grad entitled something like "Where is Thomas Pynchon and Why Has He Run away with My Wife?" Or maybe "Who is Thomas etc." I was living overseas at the time and although I had greatly liked his first two books I hadn't realized that he had become such a notorious recluse. Maybe someone could dig up info about this article to put in the WP article. Evidently he really had vanished with this guy's wife.... Hayford Peirce 04:12, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

Doesn't Pynchon (most likely) live in New York instead of Northern California?

---

Pynchon is secretive and avoids media attention. But rumors on his social life are consistently upbeat: he gets around, travels, sees people, and all that. Howard Hughes became a recluse.--192.35.35.34 17:26, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Protection

The page is temporarily protected due to the emerging edit war. If anyone is unhappy with the protection, they are urged to contact me privately. Danny 16:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

See User talk:200.95.39.125. User:200.95.39.125 may actually be Jules Siegel (the IP resolves to a Mexican ISP, and Siegel apparently lives in Mexico, so it's possible). -℘yrop (talk) 18:07, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

--I don't see any signs of an edit war in the history. What is the dispute about? --Jleon 19:06, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Neither do i, but see User talk:Danny#Thomas_Pynchon_protection and User talk:Pyrop#Thomas_Pynchon. Danny has told me that Jimbo and he have confirmed that User:200.95.39.125 is an interested party, and that the protection "was based on a request from interested parties." We can't really do anything except wait... -℘yrop (talk) 21:16, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

If it ever gets unprotected, someone should throw in the following quotation, which I found in Arthur Salm's "A screaming comes across the sky (but not a photo)", San Diego Union-Tribune 8 February 2004.

The man simply chooses not to be a public figure, an attitude that resonates on a frequency so out of phase with that of the prevailing culture that if Pynchon and Paris Hilton were ever to meet—the circumstances, I admit, are beyond imagining—the resulting matter/antimatter explosion would vaporize everything from here to Tau Ceti IV.

Wuv, Anville 8 July 2005 20:03 (UTC).

I have unprotected the article since it has been protected for over a month. Gamaliel 8 July 2005 20:14 (UTC)

Someone on 200.95.39.125 definately tried very desperately to remove any Jules Siegel references off the page, they have all been restored now, if that person is Siegel himself or even Thomas Pynchon I don't know. Nixdorf 21:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

BTW, the removed paragraphs were the following:

Relatively little is known about Thomas Pynchon as a private person, however in the March 1977 issue of Playboy Magazine a Cornell University friend, writer Jules Siegel published a lengthy article entitled Who is Thomas Pynchon, and why did he take off with my wife? about his relation to Pynchon, including such tidbits as the fact that Pynchon had a complex for his teeth, was nicknamed Tom at Cornell, and that he had an affair with Siegel's wife.

• Lineland: Mortality and Mercy on the Internet's Pynchon-L@Waste.Org Discussion List by Jules Siegel
• March 1977 Playboy article by college classmate Jules Siegel, "Who Is Thomas Pynchon... And Why Did He Take Off With My Wife?", part 1 and part 2

Nixdorf 21:22, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

---

The MacArthur Foundation <http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/complete_list_3.htm> gives 1988 as the date of TP's fellow award, not 1989, as stated in article.

Paris Hilton?

I am extremely hard pressed to believe Paris Hilton would recognize the name Thomas Pynchon. More likely the writers of the O.C. (who do have some degree of wit) have, and thought they were being clever.

Where does the rumor about Pynchon moving back to California come from? I haven't been able to verify that such a rumor exists (or is accessible to me, anyway).

I agree. The part about Paris Hilton being an active participant in cultural repartee should be removed sans proof. 129.105.35.120 22:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Vineland

I note that the detailed description of Vineland was removed. OK, I can see the reasoning behind that, and it makes enough sense. I pulled the text out of the revision history and pasted it into the Vineland article, where it may be more appropriate. It actually dropped in rather nicely.

Best wishes, Anville 15:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yearbook Picture

I'd like to propose to remove the silly and outdated picture of Pynchon from the page, regardless if there is another image. Regardless if that is an actual picture of him, it is certainly not what he looks like today. An article on Pynchon would be more accurate, fitting, and respectfull without it. It's bad enough there's a bit about the poor man having a dental-complex. Besides, that picture is literally all over the net for those who wish to see it, and adds nothing to an article on Pynchon's obscurity or writing abilities. 129.105.35.120 22:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

What does a fifty year old yearbook picture tell us about a living author? I would remove this myself, but I see it's been deleted before and restored. I hope someone has a reason other than "it was my idea" for keeping this in. Orthografer 16:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• • I agree. Does three a consensus make? I'm taking it out. If you want it back, please post here so we can discuss it rather than just reverting back and forth. Zafiroblue05 05:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The photo is all over the net for those who wish to see it, in the same way that much of the info in this article is all over the net for those who wish to see it. If the photo doesn't need to be here, why does the article? Your argument also assumes that someone who knows nothing of Pynchon except for a name or a link from another article will come here and automatically understand why there is no photo of a living author. So, if the photo goes, there needs to be an explanation posted in an obvious place for Pynchon-newbies. Of course, it would just be easier to post a 50 year old photo and explain in the caption why the article uses a 50 year-old photo than to none at all (if only because new Wikipedians will come in, see an article w/o a photo & add one in order to be helpful). Finally, a more appropriate photo for the article than the one recently removed would be here. proteus71 14:00, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)
      • I think there's a certain notability to Thomas Pynchon that warrants the article's presence in an encyclopedia (clearly - but this is WHY this article exists despite its content being easily gathered from a Google search). But I would say that there's NOT anything notable about that picture - in fact, Pynchon's opposition to the publishing of his photos is what is notable - and what better to represent that than by not having a picture at all (and discussing why not). Putting up the yearbook picture (or any other decades-old picture) is, to some extent, making notable what is inherently NOT. After all, that yearbook picture (or the Navy picture, etc.) would never be looked at if Pynchon was pro-photo. Zafiroblue05 05:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think the photo should be left in unless you have a suitable replacement. It is directly relevant to the article, and the lack of a more recent photo is a biographical detail addressed by the article. Shoehorn 02:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• The photo should be left out; the lack of a photo (recent or not) is suitably explained by the article. There's nothing inherently informative about a photo attached to an article about a novelist (as opposed to a photo in an article about an actor, or a politician--someone whose public recognizability is part of their fame). It's not a good photo, it's so ancient that it's not an accurate photo, and simple common decency to a man who doesn't like having his photo published should take priority over merely adding to the article every possible item we can. --User:Jod
  • Along those same lines, I doubt the man would appreciate having trivial bits of his life put into an encyclopedia article in the first place. Common decency? I think you need to disance yourself from the article a little. Is the photo relevant? Yes. Are we suggesting someone track the author down and take his photo by force? No. Shoehorn 02:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Shoehorn, why do you keep saying "the photo is relevant" without ever giving an adaquate explanation of why exactly the photo is relevant??? Do you have any valid reasons? You say the people wanting to remove the photograph need to distance themselves and that you think someone has suggested that from a photo something might try to track tracked down (where does this come from???), both of which are absurd extrapolations from what has been written here. Do you refuse to believe that anyone might have neutral, objective reasons for thinking the page shouldn't have a photo? Why don't you try proving that the photo *IS* relevant to the article, because I don't think your simple "Yeah, it's relevant, you're just lacking logic/being too subjective/confused/etc" is changing anybody's mind. And by the way, you have NO way of knowing what the man's wishes are concerning an Encyclopedia entry. He obviously wants his *name* in the public eye, and there's no reason to assume anything about an encyclopedia article because he has an aversion to the media. But that is irrelevant to an encyclopedia article, much like a photograph from when the man was like 18-20.
  • If we're going to have an article based on what Pynchon wants, then we should extend the same courtesy to all other living authors. Rowling, Oates, Marquez, King, all of them should be contacted to see if they approve of their entires. Entries for deceased authors will be cared for by their fans. Criticism, unwanted photos, embarrassing personal data can all be shunted aside to other web sites. Wikipedia can become just like the 14th edition Britannica, where the editors worked very diligently to see than no one was offended. Of course, the end result of their efforts was that the 14th edition was Britannica's biggest failure. Conclusion: to some extent we are obliged to ignore what Pynchon wants. This article is not for him, it's for the rest of the English-speaking world. We do our part by not using a recent photo or encouraging others to take photos, or publishing his home address, etc. But we are not obliged to indulge his every quirk. I'm still in favor of the photo I suggested a few days ago. proteus71 16:48, 18 Nov 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm strongly opposed to having any photo at all. Like I said, it adds nothing to the article. The purpose of an article about an author should be to discuss their literary works, lifestyles, and influences. As his reclusiveness is well-explained, any reader would emerge understanding why there is no photograph. Putting a 50-year old photo on the page seems to overstress the point by screaming "look, we're serious, no photos of the man publicly exist!" How about we invoke universality? If all we had of anyone was a photo from when they were 20ish when their fame was garnered in middle-age, would we post the photographs, or merely admit than none exist? I would think the latter. Furthermore, I feel the point of a good encyclopedia article is to capture the "essence" of the object, and in this case, the "essence" of Thomas Pynchon demands that no picture be placed. This isn't to indulge Pynchon's whims, but rather to convey his writtings and character in a more appropriate fashion. May I suggest instead that we substitute the picture with a crude notebook drawing of a post-horn and the drawing of a rocket in flight, or something similar? Sonofabird 20:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
      • What a confused argument. Pynchon's whims and the "essense" of his work are the same thing. Certainly Pynchon wouldn't want his photo on a book jacket. An encyclopedia entry is more comprehensive. Shoehorn 20:25, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
        • But how exactly does putting an outdated, misleading (because of the age difference and perhaps even the teeth thing) picture contribute to the comprehensiveness of the article? What, after all, is the point of having a picture in an encyclopedia article? Either to a) illustrate a point that can not be clearly and concisely described in words or b) to give the reader a sense of the subject, no? Including the yearbook picture does NOT give the reader a sense of Pynchon; excluding the picture and explaining why in the lede (as currently done) DOES. And, IMO, including the photo muddies the "picture" (so to speak) rather than illustrating it.Zafiroblue05 07:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
        • "Pynchon's whims and the "essense" of his work are the same thing." No they aren't! Who's "confused?" Answer this question: "who is Thomas Pychon?" We don't write what Pynchon personally wants (what Sonofabird I believe called "his whims"), or else we'd just ask the man to do it himself. We write about the "essence" of the work that he is known for and his personality (if available) and his place in literature. Answering "who/what is Thomas Pynchon and why is he/she/it important?" does not involve putting a 40+ year old photograph from before he wrote anything worth publishing or had any noteriety, especially given Zafiro's points (s/he seems to make more sense than anyone on here, especially those of you who's argument is basically "we have it, therefore it should be there). But, I am laughing at the fact that you implied that Pynchon's wishes/personality are identical to his literary work.
          • Any photo helps to establish context. A yearbook photo from the 50's provides context of the era in which he was born, hairstyles, clothing. If he has bad teeth then this might be a clue to his choice of subject matter. In a larger context, if I am looking for photos from the 50's, or photos of famous people when they were young, or that kind of thing then providing the photo would be helpful. I don't think you really care about the overall project here, I think you're just a Pynchon fanboy who is foolishly trying to protect the honor of his sole hero. Shoehorn 20:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Any photo helps establish context? Really? Would a picture of, say, Hemingway's dead body, head blasted away by shotgun, be appropriate in an encyclopedia article? Would a screenshot of Paris Hilton on the OC establish the context in the "Media aversion and mystique" section? (Actually, I'm thinking maybe any reference to Paris, except the quote, should be removed.) And on and on. Just because you *can* depict something doesn't mean you *should*. As I stated above, an image should only (IMO) appear in an encyclopedia if it either a) give readers a better sense of the subject or b) illustrates (in both senses of the word) a point that cannot be better depicted in words. As that photo of Pynchon gives readers a *false* sense of Thomas Pynchon and *muddies* rather than clarifies the issue of Pynchon's aversion to public "fame" (or whatever you want to call it). Zafiroblue05 05:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
              • What is this issue you keep talking about? It is well known that Pynchon chooses not to be a public figure. The only thing that could muddy this "issue" would be a daytime television interview frenzy by the man. Shoehorn 22:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
                • Uh, really? Let's say we wrote in the first sentence that Pynchon was a media hog. That would muddy the issue HERE, no? (The issue, of course, is Pynchon's media aversion.) That is, it would muddy the issue in the encyclopedia. It wouldn't be muddied to person knowledgeable about the issue; but it would to someone just reading the article. To be more precise, it (a false statement about Pynchon and the media, or the yearbook picture) would muddy the encyclopedia's discussion of the issue, not the issue itself. Since this is, after all, an encyclopedia, I thought that would be clear. Is that semantic (not to mention pedantic) enough for you? Zafiroblue05 20:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
                  • Well that is an interesting argument, and by interesting I mean hyperbolic. You equate posting an old yearbook photo with presenting false information in the article. So, for James Joyce, should you choose a photo with an eyepatch, or without? Posting an image without the patch would muddy the issue that Joyce at certain times wore an eyepatch, and that would by your logic be the same as writing that Joyce was an Eskimo who led a failed rebellion against the king of Sweden. Meanwhile we now have a cartoon rendition of Pynchon on the page, which is far more asinine than the yearbook photo. Shoehorn 22:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
            • I wrote the reply to your idiotic "confused" statement. I don't like Pynchon's writing that much, to be honest, hardly from a fanboy, and I don't think he's a hero at all. I actually find him to be something of a charlatan, but that's neither here nor there. I stumbled across the page rather randomly to be honest, and the photo discussion caught my eye. My care for the overall project is exactly why I don't think there should be a Pynchon picture from the 50s. Establishing context? Are you serious? On those grounds, we could insert all sorts of crazy things. Because he has bad teeth that might dictate his subject choice? Not only might he have plastic surgery since then, or dramatically changed appearence, or all sorts of other things, looking at a picture of a person does nothing to help you interpret their work or literary value (which is why Pynchon has a page in the first place.) Do you know anything about literature at all? Baby photos, photos of parents, photos from college, these are all superfluous to the task at hand when writing an encyclopedia article about Pynchon. What context can it give us beyond "he lived in the fifties?" Let the "fanboys" go find it if they want.
              • Fanboy or detractor, you don't appear to be objective in spite of your excuses. I know a good deal about literature. Or was that a rhetorical (and pointless) question? Shoehorn 22:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
                • No, I was completely serious. And yes, I am being objective. I don't think it's objectively proper to have that picture be the sole representation of Thomas Pynchon at the top of the page. My excuses? I asked you for a logical, valid reason to keep the page the way it was and all you continued to do was spout ad hominem attacks.
• These are both hyperbolical exaggerations of my point. What I said was that, given that the photo is not very good nor relevant, there is no reason not to follow the dictates of courtesy: that his reasonable preference be respected.

I added a screenshot of Pynchon as he agreed to appear on "The Simpsons". This is the only visual image of Pynchon authorized by the man himself in several decades. Therefore, this image should answer the concerns of those who believe that a yearbook photo of him, being decades out of date, is inappropriate. proteus71 20:27, 30 Nov 2005.

• Agreed. Then someone put up some other images, rearranging... What the hell, this issue isn't worth it. Not a fanboy enough to care. :p Zafiroblue05 20:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Your post-horn is awesome! With the yearbook photo in a better spot and the Simpsons screenshot later on, I say we have the whole photo issue resolved. proteus71 22:11, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Till a better foto appears what is there now is a good compromise. The simpsons pic is very good and amusing . Im sure that TP would have a good laugh.

• • • The is much more accurate now, especially including the Simpson's image. I think readers will now have the sense of who Thomas Pynchon is instead of maybe thinking he is best known as a teenager from the 50s. 129.105.104.223 22:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
    • • I know this discussion is pretty old...but I tend to disagree with the majority on this point. I found it pretty cool that there is any picture of him, no matter how old it is. Makes for an interesting case of how reclusive he is...the fact that, to date, there has only been on picture of him.

Journey into the Mind of P...

Nothing on the movie? I havent seen it but someone must have. If its garbage, thats ok, say its garbage, but you cant just ignore it.

• Unless someone's seen it, no one can really write about it, right? Zafiroblue05 05:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

From a Source at Holt

The new UNTITLED Thomas Pynchon novel will 'tentatively' be published Spring 2007. Nov. Rating 8/10 Acc. Rating 5/10

• Oh, come on. Zafiroblue05 22:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
• What's Nov. Ratings and Acc. Rating? proteus71 21:06, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Probably something he made up to make it seem more credible. Or cryptic, really. Zafiroblue05 20:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the below entry but on the Holt thing, I happen to know that not only has there been no publication date set for any 'new' TP novel, but no one at Holt would even ask TP when its due. So there.

Mortality and Mercy

I dont know how legal or ethical this is but you can now read Mortality and Mercy in Vienna for free at Google Scholar. Great page.

muted horn?

is there a story behind the muted horn pic? It seems like vandalism to me, but am not sure... --sohmc 01:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)