Talk:1918 United Kingdom general election in Ireland

Note One

What is the source for this claim about the placing of a gun to an electoral officers head and the discovery of new ballots? Also, where did it happen?--John Carroll 11:58, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Tim Pat Coogan, Michael Collins p.67. It was in the Longford by-election in 1917. In the words of the perpetuator, Alasdair MacCaba, "I jumped up on the platform, put a .45 to the head of the returning officer, clicked the hammer and told him to think again." FearÉIREANN\^(talk) 20:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

mandate for war?

Sinn Féin treated the result as a mandate from the Irish people to immediately set about establishing an independent, all-Ireland state, and to initiate an undeclared war of separation from Great Britain.

This isn't really true, is it? My understanding was that the media and the government incorrectly blamed SF for the militancy? Is the article being too simplistic in believing that SF and 'physical force republicanism' were one and the same? Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 12:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Elections in Independent Ireland category

Please stop adding Elections in Independent Ireland category to this page and to Irish general election 1921 page. Yes, Irish independence was proclaimed in 1916 and was declared by the 1st Dáil in January 1919 but that does not make it a reality. The Irish Republic states it existed from 1919 to 1922. The 1918 election was a UK one, run by the British government, how is this an election in an Independent Ireland? If a county is independent then it can run its own elections as the Free State government did in 1922. Also what about the people in Ireland who didn't recognise the Irish Republic and thought they were continuing to live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Another thing, the Irish War of Independence started in January 1919 (and ended in 1921), so how could an election in December 1918 be held in an Independent Ireland?

But rather than get into a revert war and discussions on when Ireland became independent, I think the categories should be re-organised.

The current structure is:

Elections by country 
  [+] Elections in Ireland 
  [+] Elections in the Republic of Ireland 
      [+] Elections in independent Ireland 

A better arrangement would be:

Elections by country 
  [+] Elections in Ireland (all elections up to and including 1921)
      [+] Elections in independent Ireland (all elections from 1922 to 1948)
      [+] Elections in the Republic of Ireland (all elections from 1949)

It's not perfect, but the 1918 and 1921 elections would then reside in the Elections in Ireland only, conveniently, side stepping any potential POV issues like actual date of Independence. There are other issues like presidential elections, the first 2 are in independent Ireland, the rest in RoI category, not exactly ideal, they should surely be in the same category. The difficulty is in trying to come up with categories for the following periods of history:

• British rule, until 1916/1919/1922 (take your pick!)
• Irish Republic, 1919-1922
• Irish Free State, 1922-1937
• Ireland/Éire, 1937-1948
• Republic of Ireland, 1949-

All suggestions welcome! Snappy56 18:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Are we using British electorial history or are we using Irish Electoral History, Independence was declared in 1916, reconfirmed by the First Dáil Éireann after the 1918 General election, trying looking at the Dail database.--padraig 21:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about reality based electoral history! IMHO, Irish independence was a process, starting with the Easter Rising and ending in the Anglo-Irish treaty. Ireland didn't magically become independent as soon as P.H. Pearse read the proclamation or happen when the 1st Dáil declared unilateral independence, these were steps on the way.

This text is from Irish Republic:

The goal of those who established the Irish Republic was to create a de facto independent republic comprising the whole island of Ireland. They failed in this goal, but the Irish Republic paved the way for the creation of the Irish Free State, a Commonwealth dominion with self-government, and a territory that extended to the 26 counties originally foreseen in the 1914 Home Rule Act. By 1949 the Free State became a fully independent republic, the 'Republic of Ireland'.

Speaking in the Dáil on 29 April 1997, Bertie Ahern, the leader of the Fianna Fáil party, which is the successor of the anti-treaty Sinn Féin, and the then Taoiseach (head of government) John Bruton, leader of the Fine Gael party, which is the successor of the pro-Treaty Sinn Féin, agreed that as a basis for inclusive commemoration, the date from which Irish independence should be measured was not the formation of the Irish Republic in 1919, but the 1922 establishment of the Irish Free State, the first modern Irish state to achieve de facto and de jure independence, and therefore international recognition.

This is the position of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and presumably the other Dáil parties which makes it a majority position, so although you have a different opinion, you should respect the majority one. Btw, Do you have any suggestions for category changes? Snappy56 19:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Article title

This article is currently titled Irish (UK) general election, 1918. I can see a reason for the parenthesised "UK", since the election was organised as an election to the UK Parliament, but it's superfluous because there was no other general election in Ireland that year.

So I propose that the article should be moved to Irish general election, 1918, which is currently a redirect to Irish (UK) general election, 1918. Any objections? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I would support that move as the 1918 election was the first election to Dáil Éireann.--padraig 11:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

O Fenian writes 'Unsourced claims and analysis' and reverts wholesale without even checking whether every change falls within these categories. Anyway the entire article is unsourced and full of analysis bar five small referenced items. So leave it be O Fenian. Only remove what you believe is either wrong or contentious. 81.129.245.63 (talk) 11:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

No thank you, as disruptive trolls do not get to dictate that policies to not apply to their edits. O Fenian (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian - Could you write coherent English rather than screech. I have no idea what you are saying except I hear what you are about. No assessment of the changes involved just abuse in the hope that your patrolling and reversions will win out. 81.153.148.246 (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

During your lengthy time as a disruptive troll, you have received countless warnings about unsourced content. I suggest you take heed of them .O Fenian (talk) 22:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian - only threats and abuse, never proper assessment of the additions I make.

Nitpicking and fault finding is your stock in trade. Hopefully Wikipedia is bigger than you. You revert even spelling corrections in your rush to justice. 81.153.148.246 (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Your current additions are original research. I have also checked Laffan, and your edits are unacceptable. Please provide quotes and page numbers to substantiate any changes you wish to make prior to making them. O Fenian (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"It should be borne in mind that there was a limited electoral pact between SF and Nationalists; the Nationalists gave SF a clear run in Tyrone North-West and instructed their supporters to vote SF in Fermanagh South and Londonderry City; meanwhile SF instructed their supporters to vote Nationalist in Armagh South, Down South, Tyrone North-East and Donegal East. The pact broke down in Down East where a Unionist won by splitting the difference. For the six counties which formed the future Northern Ireland, the total vote was:" ACTUAL VOTES FOLLOW - http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/h1918.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.236.11 (talk) 08:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That does not source the changes you have made, and it is not from Laffan. You allege Laffan supports the changes you made, either provide quotes from Laffan or it will be assumed you are falsifying sources and further action taking accordingly. O Fenian (talk) 10:17, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Protection

{{editprotected}} Please remove the original research added in this edit.

That the Catholic electorate in Ulster was by no means overwhelmingly separatist is revealed by comparing neighbouring results. In East Donegal the IPP got 7,596 votes (the Unionist 4,797) while Sinn Fein received 46, yet in South Donegal with no Unionist, it was 5,787 votes for Sinn Fein to 4,752 for the IPP. In Tyrone North-East it was 56 for Sinn Fein against 11,605 for the IPP and 6,681 for the Unionist, but in adjacent Tyrone North-West where no IPP candidate ran, Sinn Fein polled 10,442 against the Unionist's 7,696 votes.

Here (top result, page 165, having trouble linking to it direct) is the relevant passage (certainly regarding Donegal, I can find no results for either "North West Tyrone" or "Tyrone North West") from the book they claim in their edit summary sources their addition. As you can see, the source does not make the analytical claims that the editor says it does? This edit has been warned many times about their edits, which include their many problematic edits to this article. This addition is OR, and should not remain in due to a grudge bearing admin who has an axe to grind after his very bad block of me was overturned. O Fenian (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the changes O Fenian before you start lashing out. The article has moved on with the specific Ulster results detail now referenced not by Laffan but by arc.86.150.37.92 (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Any chance you'd help matters by signing up for an account (WP:SIGNUP)? Free, takes seconds, makes it easier to hold conversations. Rd232 ^talk 11:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I've read them, and ARC (sic). ARK does not source the claims you have added and neither does Laffan. You are making analytical claims about election results supported only by the results, despite being warned dozens of times about your edits. O Fenian (talk) 10:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

ARK does source those election figures. Use find in page for the vote totals, omitting the comma (7,596 = 7596). [1] However this may well be original research by WP:SYNTHESIS - that source doesn't say "the Catholic electorate was not simply voting for separation". PS Protection is applied to the wrong version so don't get upset about that. Rd232 ^talk 10:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I said "ARK does not source the claims you have added", not the "figures". The key is that the whole paragraph is original research flowing from the first sentence, "That the Catholic electorate in Ulster was by no means overwhelmingly separatist is revealed by comparing neighbouring results", how is that not conclusions being drawn based on votes alone? If you only remove the first sentence the paragraph makes no sense, you are left with isolated cherry picked consituency results that have no context. O Fenian (talk) 10:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact the addition is contradicted by ARK!! "It should be borne in mind that there was a limited electoral pact between SF and Nationalists; the Nationalists gave SF a clear run in Tyrone North-West and instructed their supporters to vote SF in Fermanagh South and Londonderry City; meanwhile SF instructed their supporters to vote Nationalist in Armagh South, Down South, Tyrone North-East and Donegal East." The conclusion is being drawn based on results in East Donegal and Tyrone North East that as the IPP received more votes than SF that the Catholic population was not "overwhelmingly separatist", yet these are constituencies where SF instructed their supporters to vote Nationalist (which is the IPP)! O Fenian (talk) 11:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well that seems conclusive. Rd232 ^talk 11:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

✗ Not done Requested edit is clearly disputed. Please discuss here and come to a decision on what should and what should not be included in the article. So, protected edit request not done at this time. ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 11:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I have just received confirmation from an admin that the proposed removal is contradicted by the sources, and is probably original research. What more am I supposed to do? Will this incorrect passage remain while the IP editor argues black is white? O Fenian (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The article was protected in the first place because of these disputes. Removing/adding any information related to that dispute without a proper discussion taking place here is a continuation of the edit war. You can make another request if you want of course, but I will not be doing this. ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 12:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Disputes that have been discussed since protection, sources have been linked to and quoted, and it has been shown that the sources actually contradict the conclusion that the article is making. O Fenian (talk) 12:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The person who added the text should get a chance to respond, eg to provide other sources. WP:DEADLINE. If there is no response in a couple of days, the protection can be lifted. Rd232 ^talk 12:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Allow the editor more time to find sources, you must be joking surely? Did they add sources the second time they added this information? The third? The fourth? Then finally on the fifth attempt do we get a claim that it is sourced by Laffan, funny how this was never mentioned before isn't it? This attempt was removed on the grounds it is not sourced by Laffan, so then we get a sixth time. And a seventh, repeating the claim that it is sourced, presumably by Laffan still. And of course there is the eighth time it was added. After being repeatedly challenged to provide quotes from Laffan to support the additions (challenges which were ignored) and links to Laffan being provided that tend to show the claims are unsupported, then we get the claim that it is not sourced by Laffan at all (despite saying it was earlier) and that it is sourced by ARK. This is despite ARK contradicting the conclusion being drawn based on election results! The time to provide sources is when your edit is reverted the first time. O Fenian (talk) 17:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair points. Do you have a response to that, anonymous editor? Rd232 ^talk 20:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian that sounds all too simple. It sounds very much like common sense to me. But hey it's a pov warrior out to cause disruption therefore discussions must be had and allowances made. So the IP should be given the opportunity to provide other sources, since the sources they used already actually contradict the conclusion the point they are making. Let’s see them do it again! I have never heard so much nonsense! We remove/revert WP:OR not reward it. We don't disrupt the project by locking articles. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I really think you need to calm down O Fenian. The Ulster results edit is quite tame with one non-statistical (not contradictory) point made gently yet the whole article has about 50 unreferenced analytic opinions. Get reverting that meaty fare before hysterically removing items that you have not even read that do not entirely serve your purpose. 86.150.37.92 (talk) 18:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

One problem at a time. The edit you wish to add appears to be original research (OR) via synthesis. If you're not willing to defend it on its merits, it will be removed. As for the other possible OR issues (50?), take them one at a time in a new section. Also, please refrain from using words like "hysterically" to describe other editors' actions. It's not helpful. See WP:BATTLEGROUND. Rd232 ^talk 20:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the same disruption that has been going on for months, and I hope people are paying attention. O Fenian (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

If I felt the other 50 unreferenced items were wrong or needed amendment I would try to improve them. I wouldn't revert them wholesale like our patrolling chums.

If the one sentence remark that not all Ulster Catholics voted for separatism in 1918 is so horrifyingly non-neutral I will remove it. The statistical details drawn from Ark effectively reveal that point, amongst others. 86.150.37.92 (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(a) If you're fine with the unreferenced items (other than being unreferenced) then mentioning them is a distraction. The other editors disagreed with your addition on wider grounds. (b) Your second paragraph reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue, which is not WP:NPOV but accuracy and sourcing. This is quite clear from the discussion above, which you have not responded to there but only here, and ignoring what was said there. This is not debate, it is treating Wikipedia as a WP:Battleground and conceding defeat in this particular "battle". That is not good enough.

Accordingly, based on this and past behaviour, I'm placing you under an editing restriction. You are hereby limited to WP:1RR, that is, if someone reverts your change, you may not revert it; and if you revert someone else's change and they re-do it, you may not revert again. Breaches of this restriction should be reported at User talk:Rd232 or to any other administrator and will result in escalating blocks (which if they are circumvented will lead to further measures). The restriction is of indefinite duration, but that does not mean permanent - good behaviour may enable it to be lifted. (Given the communication difficulties caused by your dynamic IP, showing the minimal good will involved in getting a user account would help.)

Additionally, I strongly encourage you to (a) get a user account (WP:Signup); and (b) propose non-trivial changes on the talk page first, especially if you're introducing new material; and (c) make better use of dispute resolution if the debate gets stuck. Rd232 ^talk 09:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

For enforcement purposes: the editing restriction is aimed at the user using this IP on 26 August 2009, regardless of which IP is used. It does not apply to anyone else using that IP, or to anyone else who happens to use the same IPs. If in doubt as to identity, exercise caution. Rd232 ^talk 10:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Since the matter appears to be settled I'm going to lift the page protection. Rd232 ^talk 09:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

I see the misleading editing has continued in this edit. It was explained above that ARK attribute specific reasoning as to the variance in Sinn Féin votes in certain constituencies. To leave this out and just mention the number of votes is thoroughly misleading. I have made several changes, they are as follows;

• The phrase "but a triumph none the less as they held 23 seats out of Ulster's 37, having a minority previously" has been removed and the previous wording restored. That really needs no explanation I hope?
• I have removed the isolated statistics about South Down and South Armagh. The explanation as my first point applies, plus I note the inappropriate sarcastic wording of "amassed only 79 votes".
• Similarly the other statistics section has been removed, reasoning as previously mentioned.

If statistics are to be included in this article, which I think would be helpful, I think they should be for all constituencies not ones cherry picked to push a particular point of view. Therefore I think full results could be included in a table, complete with a notes column to detail any "pacts" that affected votes? O Fenian (talk) 15:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)