Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland

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Norman wars in Ireland (1169–1541)[edit]

As the latter date should make clear, the list of battles cited here takes place long after the invasion ended (see Norman invasion of Ireland for full list). The 1261 Battle of Callann is among the last that could plausibly be included in this list as the next hundred years saw the conquest rolled back. Therefore I submit that the following be removed from the above list - Moiry Pass (1315) Connor (1315) Kells (1315) Skerries (1316) 2nd Áth na Ríogh (1316) Loch Rasca (1317) Dysert O'Dea (1318) Faughart (1318) Áth an Urchair (1329) Fiodh an Átha (1330) Cruachán Brí Eile (1385) Ros Mhic Thriúin (1394) Tragh-Bhaile (1399) Cluain Immorrais (1406) Knockdoe (1504) Silken Thomas's Rebellion (1534–35) Belahoe. I have rendered it thus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Campaignbox_Irish-Norman_wars; let me know if opinions differ. Fergananim (talk) 12:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

To avoid accusations of WP:OR, I'd like to see some citations to the effect that Norman wars ceased at the Battle of Callan. What were the later wars then - Old English? Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Well its a question over invasion rather than the ethnic term used - it implies the invasion kept going from 1169 all the way to 1541; in fact the 1260s were the point when the invasion began to be rolled-back by various Gaelic dynasties. That's partly why I chose Callan as it was the first of a number of Gaelic-Irish victories over the Anglo-Irish, which were distinct from the invasion and overlapped with the Irish Bruce wars. They need to be treated on their own terms, not as part of an unhistoric centuries long 'invasion'. By the way, the term 'Old English' only came into use from after c. 1598, and the invaders never termed themselves 'Normans'. They called themselves English. By the 1200s their descendants in turn termed themselves Anglo-Hiberni, 'the English of Ireland', hence Anglo-Irish. To the Gaelic-Irish they were the Gall, distinct from the Saxain (English of England). Fergananim (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
The campaignbox lists the series of conflicts involving the Normans in Ireland. They may not have called themselves 'Normans', but that (along with 'Anglo-Normans' and 'Hiberno-Normans') is what they're called by historians, as it's the most accurate name for them. The campaignbox doesn't imply that the invasion kept going for centuries, because all battles after 1171 are listed under the heading "Post-invasion". Also, it's named "Norman wars in Ireland", not "Norman invasion of Ireland". ~Asarlaí 22:12, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Conclusions? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Why not Wars in the Lordship of Ireland or Wars in Norman Ireland? All but two kings (of Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill from the province of Ailech) swore alligence to the king of England and over the following century the Norman Earldom of Ulster had made headways into Ailechs powerbase in Inishowen. So it can be argued that nearly the whole if not all the island was under their influence. Also at what point do Irish born Normans no longer be classified as invaders? Mabuska (talk) 16:28, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I could happily support "Wars in the Lordship of Ireland". Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:29, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Category:Constitutional referendums in Ireland[edit]

A category has been nominated for upmerging here that may interest the project. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

United Ireland as a political ideology[edit]

An editor is adding "United Ireland" to the ideology line of many Irish political party infoboxes. Is this appropriate? I would argue it isn't. Sure, Fianna Fáil, Labour, and the PBPA aspire to a united Ireland to some degree or other. Even Fine Gael do. But are they actually doing anything to advance it? All parties support the Good Friday Agreement. Adding this "ideology" above core policy platforms seems much more like an editor pushing their agenda rather than anything else. But I may well be wrong. Other viewpoints very welcome. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:55, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Apollo The Logician.

I agree, you were right in removing it from FF, FG and LP as it isn't really an important policy for them. I think the infoboxes of parties in the north or parties that see a united Ireland as an important policy should include united Ireland if they support it. I have no idea how those parties suporting the GFA is relevant or why you think I am POV pushing.Apollo The Logician (talk) 20:59, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
At least it is a case of "undue weight". Most parties know that it is just a distant dream and they are not actively pursuing it. (Sinn Fein is the exception). Having the theme on your wish list does not make it an important theme. The Banner talk 21:07, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
That is incorrect, in the aftermath of Brexit both Enda Kenny and Michael Martin acknowledged the possibility of it and said it should be considered in Brexit negotiations.Apollo The Logician (talk) 21:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Nationalism and republicanism are ideologies. A united Ireland is a goal. Alfie Gandon (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
I am not really sure what your point is.Apollo The Logician (talk) 21:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Why not, it's very clear. You're mixing up a goal ("United Ireland") with the ideology one needs to strive to achieve it ("nationalism/republicanism"). BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:52, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Nationalism/republicanism is the belief in a united Ireland. You are splitting hairs. Anyway why are bring this up? Apollo The Logician (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
To clarify things, as you seemed unclear? In any case, Kenny and Martin (and May, and Foster, and various others) all seem to be saying the first thing that comes into their heads when it comes to Brexit. I don't see how the two of them saying a United Ireland should be considered in Brexit negotiations (it will be, where it'll be summarily dismissed by the British) justifies inclusion in their respective parties' infoboxes. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:15, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Why did you think it needed clarification? Why do you think I am mixing anything up?Apollo The Logician (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Because you said "I am not really sure what your point is." Alfie Gandon (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
I know because I showed no sign of mixing them up. Apollo The Logician (talk) 21:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Constitution of Ireland[edit]

A discussion is taking place at WP:CFD here that may interest the project. Despite repeated requests to the nominator, she has failed to notify this project. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:34, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject notifications are supposed to be neutral, rather than an opportunity to kvetch.
I rarely bother any more with WikiProject notifications any more, because 19 times out of 20 they generate no response. If LL wants to make such a notification, they are of course free to do so, but should refrain from using them for attempts at point-scoring. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
While BHG may consider the project to be a backwater unworthy of her attentions, nevertheless, it is instructive to note that 2 invitations to notify were brought to her attention, which she declined, and also it is still best practice to notify the project, backwater or not: "If discussion at a quiet talk page has just attracted no or very little input, then leaving a neutral note on the talk page of a relevant WikiProject or inviting users who commented in previous discussions on the page (but see WP:CANVASS) is normally the best first step." Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Seamus Murphy stub needs help[edit]

This is a new stub article about a sculptor, a brief look through various sources indicates that he was quite a "big deal" in the Irish art scene of his time, so I believe the article needs to be expanded significantly. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Commons:Photo challenge February 2017 is Multilingualism[edit]

FYI, take a look in commons:Commons:Photo challenge/2017 - February - Multilingualism if you have any file you'd like to upload, maybe in some of your archive at home. So far nothing from Ireland.--Alexmar983 (talk) 13:42, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Just one for now. ww2censor (talk) 11:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
A very interesting one indeed. thank you.--Alexmar983 (talk) 15:10, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

The Troubles[edit]

There is a discussion going on about the RUC, discrimination and brutality in 1968 at Talk:The Troubles#Edits by Alfie Gandon and Talk:The Troubles#RUC and "police brutality". Any contribution welcomed. Scolaire (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2017 (UTC)