Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2010 March 22

22 March 2010

File:Goatse.fr homepage.png

File:Goatse.fr homepage.png (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Deleting administrator opened a thread at ANI to announce his decision. The discussion became contentious.[1] Most of what's been discussed there would be better suited to DRV. Opening this request procedurally with no opinion about its outcome. Durova⁴¹² 02:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Overturn and restore, regrettably because I have a great deal of sympathy at a personal level for Prodego's actions here. However, there was no consensus to delete this image, so deletion was out of process. This went through an FfD as a keep, was subject to an open MedCab case, and no speedy deletion criteria applied. Invoking WP:IAR in this case is not appropriate as many editors (not me) would dispute that the invocation of IAR "improved the encyclopaedia". But I would like to see this brought back to FfD where editors can give proper consideration to WP:NOTCENSORED and whether this image adds anything to the encyclopaedia. In my view, genuine consensus has not been reached on this yet. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse. The photo is not compatible with our mission to build a free encyclopedia. It is neither free nor encyclopedic. The only reason we don't have a specific policy "Wikipedia is not a shocksite" is that this is such a rare case. Wikipedia is not censored. Liberties are best preserved by (1) making use of them extensively, and (2) not abusing them. Hans Adler 02:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. We have deletion polices for a reason: to ensure that our contents benefit the encyclopedia, and to ensure that deletions are performed only if they benefit the encyclopedia. We also have the important WP:IAR policy, specifically in order to ensure that anyone can take actions that benefit the encyclopedia, even if they can't find some specific sentence in our many policies that specifically says they may do so. In the long run, because we are an encyclopedia and not a shock site, it plainly benefits our encyclopedic purpose - and therefore is the right action - to cut through all the debate and just remove the image, and to delete the image in order to prevent the removal from becoming an endless edit war. Unless there is some reason why the image is actually required by our encyclopedic purpose, and not replaceable by a link to the site depicted in the image, there is no issue here. In particular, bureaucratic arguments about what "should have happened" are of no importance; only what "should happen" is important. What should happen is for the image to stay out of the article on the grounds that we are not a shock site - and we are not required to be one merely in order to provide encyclopedic coverage of shock images. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I think Hesperian summarized this excellently: "A picture conveys more than text. If you subtract what the text conveys from what the picture conveys, you're left with the marginal benefit of displaying the picture. I'm pretty sure the marginal benefit of displaying the Mona Lisa is substantial and educational. I'm pretty sure the marginal benefit of displaying the goatse.cx image is nothing but shock value." This image is intended only to be "offensive, disgusting or/and disturbing to its viewers"^[1]. It is not an image that is useful in an encyclopedia, and its inclusion is far more harmful to the project than any marginal benefit gained by readers from viewing it. Prodego ^talk 03:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Overturn: horrible abuse of process, no two-ways about it. As has been emphasised a million times, DRV is not IFD, it examines process issues in deletions. As there is no procedural reason at all to delete, and at least three to overturn...:
  1. Not eligible for deletion under any speedy criterion;
  2. Image has already survived IfD, so it can't be speedied for the given reason anyway;
  3. It's currently a matter of contention at mediation so it's inappropriate to take action during the mediation process.
• ...thus, the image should be undeleted. There is also very flimsy justification for ignoring all rules because there are solid arguments that unilateral deletion is a detriment to the encyclopedia; remember, IAR is not carte blanche. Sceptre ^(talk) 03:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per Hesperian. :-) Hesperian 03:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Overturn / Undelete - While I agree that goatse is rather a nasty website, the image IS encyclopaedic on the grounds that it is essentially the subject of an article. Furthermore, there is an ongoing dispute as to whether the image should be included, and that should have been allowed to conclude before such unilateral action is taken. -mattbuck (Talk) 03:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. The image fails NFCC criterion #1, in that it is easily described in words and can be linked to at an external site. In fact, it *is* described in words in the opening sentence of the article. The image itself is not encyclopedic or educational, nor is it free. Risker (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Overturn / Undelete - its a nasty picture, but the process for deletion was fatally flawed (community process subverted). Without the pic, the article is kinda pointless. Maybe its a good AFD candidate, but this was not the way to do it. Bevinbell 03:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Community discussions do not override fundamental policy. WP:NFCC overrides consensus just as WP:COPYVIO does; we don't keep copyvios around even if there is a consensus discussion to keep them. Otherwise, we'd still have dozens of album cover images in discography articles. Risker (talk) 04:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Overturn. This was a deletion in the middle of a content dispute, and counter to another administrator's actions. At Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-01-12/Goatse.cx, it has already been established that the image does not fail NFCC. Whether the image should remain in the article is purely a question of value versus offensiveness. Therefore, a deletion out of process is not warranted. Remco47 (talk) 03:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Undelete: I've stumbled across this over at ANI, and while I make no comment on the file in question, this deletion was disgusting. There is ongoing discussion about the image, and no legal situation justifying a speedy deletion. The IAR justification being batted around is not, in my opinion, very convincing, as there are many people who do not think that this deletion benefits the encyclopedia. I think Sceptre sums it up nicely. Some responses here seem to endorse keeping deleted because they feel the picture is not appropriate. I make no comment on their rationales, but I think that that discussion should be held elsewhere (like IFD). Buddy431 (talk) 03:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse Per Risker. This is an unfree image that does not add any encyclopedic value to the article. The description in the article is accurate and succinct; the link is on the article page. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 04:00, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Overturn/undelete - I've actually been arguing for removal of the image at MedCab, but this deletion was way out of line as consensus seems to currently lean in the other direction. IAR means "Ignore All Rules", not "Ignore All People". It's fine to ignore a rule if everyone agrees that the rule is holding up progress, but it's not okay to ignore everyone else in favor of your own opinion -- especially when we're talking about administrative action. At most, Prodego should've taken the matter to DRV himself following the failed IfD if he thought the closure was improper. Equazcion ^(talk) 04:04, 22 Mar 2010 (UTC)

• Overturn and discard every insipid "not a shock site" argument from consideration. This is not round 2 of an IfD to discuss the merits of the image; we are here strictly to discuss the breach of trust and authority that Prodego displayed by ignoring the community and using admin tools to support a personal opinion. There was no valid policy-based reason for up and deleting this image. None. We just had an Arbcom motion that dealt with another admin who invoked WP:IAR in this manner. Apparently some lessons have not been learned yet. Tarc (talk) 04:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I have outlined the policy-based reason for this image to be deleted above. Please explain why this image passes NFCC #1. It is already well-described in words, although if one wished to expand the description one could do so. Risker (talk) 04:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The idea that a shock image can be as well-described with words as it can be by seeing the image itself is charmingly naïve. The subject matter itself is the image, and no amount of textual descriptors can adequately convey what the image itself can. Why don't we simply describe Mona Lisa's smile, sans portrait, while we're at it. Tarc (talk) 04:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the article? The subject is the website, not simply that single image. And the Mona Lisa is not an appropriate comparator, being in the public domain. One gaping anus looks pretty much like another. Risker (talk) 04:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well then, feel free to snap a pic of your own gaping anus, head on over to 4chan with it, and see if you can get the kiddies to make it into a meme too. Until then, we have an iconic image here that would be the height of absurdity to not have a copy of on its own article. There is nothing you have said here so far that wasn't shot down in flames back at the Virgin Killer IfDs. Tarc (talk) 04:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Keep deleted: I think I filed one of these IFDs. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)