User talk:RedKnight 1

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Deleting referenced information is considered vandalism

Deleting referenced information is considered vandalism, and adequate explanation for both of your reverts needs to be explained, in light of all the following points.

#1- sources say clear that Chinese victory was won in seymour expedition

User:Redknight1, pray tell, how am i "manipulating" references? How do it edit a book which another author wrote? It clearly states in History in three keys: the boxers as event, experience, and myth By Paul A. Cohen, that the Seymour Expedition was a Chinese victory

On this day Qing forces, led by Nie Shicheng and Dong Fuxiang, joined a large contingent of Boxers in attacking the expedition, and the Chinese side won a major victory

I would also like for you, paragraph by paragraph, to explain how i "manipulated" references and sources when you deleted a massaive chunk of referenced information.

#2- General Nie Shicheng's han chinese troops, under orders from Ronglu, totally ignored the foriengers, even protecting them and letting them use Chinese trains on their way to beijing during the seymour expedition's initial passage, only later did Nie turn hostile

neral Nie Shicheng's han chinese troops, under orders from Ronglu, totally ignored the foriengers, even protecting them and letting them use Chinese trains on their way to beijing during the seymour expedition's initial passage. General Nie's troops even kept killing and attacking Boxers

whilst Nie protect the foreigners, the Kansu Braves immediately put the foreigners of Von usedom, who served under seymour, under fierce attack

"the crestfallen expeditionary troops were agonizing over the unexpected humiliation suffered at the hands of the chinese"

On the first day of the relief attempt, the armed trains traveled about twenty-five miles to Yangtsun, where General Nieh’s 4,000-strong detachment of Imperial troops was camped. Unsure how to reconcile conflicting orders coming from Peking, Nieh allowed Seymour’s trains to pass. (on page 18 of document)

#3, Historians note that the Boxers had nothing to do with the siege in the legations

as for Siege of the International Legations (Boxer Rebellion), historians note that just when "the famous boxer siege is said to have begun, the boxers ceased to have anything to do with it, and ceased to exist."

"the troops of general jung lu efficiently drove the boxers out of peking, killing many in the process, but the boxers did not go peacefully."

the Boxers clearly were not engaged in attacking the legations during the siege.

thus the many accounts left by diarists withint the legations of seeing no crimson Boxer bandanas among the bright silked imperial and muslim troops surrounding the distant walls of the british legation

"The Boxers, who had started all the trouble in the first place, were not involved in the attack on the legations; a USMarine officer trapped inside noted,“I never saw a yellow-sashed, fist-shaking Boxer"

#4, thousands of Chinese Imperial bannermen were pro foreign, and attacked the forces of other Chinese imperial units who were actually attacking foreigners

Prince Qing's 10,000 bannermen, part of the Chinese imperial army, refused to fight the foreigners and even attacked the Kansu Braves and Boxers before the siege began

During the siege, Prince Qing even offered protection to the foreigners trapped in the legations, using his Manchu bannermen, and his bannermen fought against Prince Duan's bannermen

#5, the siege of the legations was phony and a farce, Ronglu, the Chinese commander, made sure that any attempt to press an actual siege failed, denying artillery to his own forces

Prince Ronglu, who was in charge of all chinese forces besieging the legations, made sure that the siege was "never pressed home"

"the legation quarter at peking was under a siege that was sometimes downright phony"

the siege of the peking legations was not intended to kill all the foreigners. If it had been, nothing would have been easier for the chinese than to use their many heavy german artillery pieces to batter the barricades and buildings to rubble, then send in thousands of infantry

Ronglu also ordered his men to fire only fireworks at the legations, refusing to press a real siege, he even sent men to communicate to the foreigners that they were not to be harmed, and Ronglu made sure his men followed a decree ordering the protection of foreigners.

ronglu denied artillery to his troops

when the artillery finally came through, Ronglu ensured that it only happened in limited amounts

#6- About my alleged "obsession" with kansu braves, it is western historians who note that the only troops who eagerly fought for real and pressed the siege against the foreigners WERE THE KANSU BRAVES

The most ferocious and effective besiegers were the Kansu Braves, a Muslim army unit led by General Tung Fu- hsiang "The only troops from whom much was to be realistically feared were those of General Dong, with their mix of Muslim and ex-Boxer fighters, functioning according to the dictates of pockmarked Prince Tuan" "By this time the Boxers were in Peking and it was said that they were in league with Tung Fu Hsiang, the general whose Kansu braves had caused so much trouble eighteen months earlier that Marine guards were brought into the city" "savage Kansu braves — that is, his whole army — re-entered the capital, and rapidly encamped on the open places in ... At last all the Legations shivered."

The foreigners explicitly feared the KANSU BRAVES more than any other unit in the chinese army At last all the Legations shivered, and urgent telegrams were sent to the British admiral for reinforcements to be rushed up at all costs

The kansu braves were the one who were most immediatly likely to combat the foreigners- By removing the Kansu braves from the marines' path, moderates at court were able to lessen the likelihood of immediate confrontation

#7- you deleted sections from Seymour Expedition detailing the participation of Kansu Braves in the battle, which historian Diana Preston notes explicitly in her book

At Langfang, von Usedom had come under ferocious attack from some 5000 Imperial troops — Kansu bravesДунгане (talk) 04:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your Mass Deletion

If you do not explain the mass deletion on Seymour Expedition, with a detailed explanation of how i twisted every single reference i used, i will revert your deletion and report you.Дунгане (talk) 05:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)