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Politics in the British Isles

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(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) (another term used to describe the same)

Conflation of geographic term (British Isles) with politics. Politics occurs in the sovereign states as in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. It does not occur within a geographic area like the British Isles. For example, we do not have a Politics in the Levant article. Multiple OR issues. Snappy (talk) 21:54, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Snappy (talk) 22:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Snappy (talk) 22:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete This is pure OR and another of Karl's pointless cats/articles. BTW I do not need Karl commenting on my input. And can I also request that he keeps his input to the absolute minimum here (and for that matter at other delete discussions). Thanks. Bjmullan (talk) 22:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
strong keep Politics in the British Isles is the subject of endless streams of ink. Given the shared history (see History of the British Isles and recent creation of multi-lateral bodies whose scope is the whole of the British isles, a survey article like this one is completely reasonable, not OR, and obviously notable. If your general argument is with the intersection of politics and regions, well, we also have Water politics in the Middle East, Water politics in the Nile Basin, Politics of the Caribbean, Politics of the European Union, Politics of Europe, for starters; but I suppose you might respond that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS? If you can point out the OR, you are of course welcome to improve the article. I'm just not sure why you are saying this article is OR, or which parts are OR? Also, this is not WP:SYN, because no additional conclusions are being drawn about politics in the british isles that isn't supported by references. Nice to see you too BJ. --KarlB (talk) 22:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comment here is a recent book source, which uses a similar title to that of this article:
- Nicholas Aylott, Iain Ogilvie, John Barry (2003). The Politics of the British Isles: A Comparative Introduction. Sage Pubs. ISBN 978-0761969600.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) --KarlB (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OK, this is getting tedious. I think we have a problem here and would direct Karl to examine the Wikipedia:General sanctions with regard to the term "British Isles". While Karl's exact behavior is not typical of the sort we have seen before on this issue it is touching on disruptive and is certainly tendentious. --RA (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi. Thanks RA for your suggestion; I have read about the general sanctions, but in this case I don't think there is a violation; in fact the discussions on the CfD have brought to light lots of interesting material about politics within and between these countries. While the category is fine, an article is also of value here. If we end up renaming the category, then the article could be renamed too, but I don't see that as a reason to delete. I welcome your continued contributions to improve the encyclopedia. --KarlB (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comment for another reference, attesting notibility, see this recent book: The Atlantic Archipelago A Political History of the British Isles "Presents a comprehensive political history of what are usually known as the British Isles without taking an Anglocentric point of view."] If you are searching for sources, I'd suggest looking under 'Atlantic archipelago' as well, as many sources are now using this term. If wikipedia moves to this term as well, then of course this article should be renamed. But I'd ask all those voting to please consider this is a deletion discussion, not a renaming discussion, so the title is not at issue - what is at issue is whether the contents are notable and sourced.--KarlB (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The following editors have been canvassed for their participation: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. --RA (talk) 08:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. There is a common political system - with variations - in most of the area and a different system in the Irish state. This article is the equivalent of a basket of apples with one pear. The same is not true of Europe, the EU, the Middle East etc. An article on bilateral relations between the UK and Ireland makes sense. This does not. Scolaire (talk) 09:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete As a POV fork. There are only two sovereign states in the archipelago. The politics of the archipelago is thus more than sufficiently met by Ireland-United Kingdom relations and the main British Isles article. The mere existence of a particular string of words in a published source (in this case "politics of the British Isles", or just, as easily, "British-Irish politics", or "Anglo-Irish politics", etc.) does not, in itself, merit a separate article. --RA (talk) 09:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Looks like Karl is now looking to canvas: [10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15], [16] and [17]. Bjmullan (talk) 09:28, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, what I did was notify the editors who had recently editied 'History of the British Isles' as this article is clearly related. I notified them in a neutral fashion and did not base the notification on any particular pov. So, the notification was within the bounds. Thanks for your efforts to improve the encyclopedia.--KarlB (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The claim of the nomination - that politics "does not occur within a geographic area like the British Isles" - is obviously false and seems quite tendentious. There seem to be plenty of sources which frame the topic in this way and here's another one: The Political Development of the British Isles. Warden (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not occur within geographic areas, it occurs within nation states, and what goes on between is covered in bilateral relations, e.g. Ireland-United Kingdom relations. As RA has pointed out, this article is large duplicate and pov fork of Ireland-United Kingdom relations. I also am concerned that KarlB's canvassing has turned into campaigning, in an effort to stack the !vote. Snappy (talk) 11:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, so your claim is that politics cannot occur between nation states? Or politics can *only* be bilateral? You seem to forget the multi-lateral relations in the isles, which are well documented in the article. Perhaps you'd care to read it? --KarlB (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also Snappy, I appreciate your unfounded concern; it was not canvassing, as explained above. I do note however that you added this to the list of 'Ireland'-related discussions, but you neglected to add it to any other countries (like, say, the UK). I wonder who is trying to stack the vote now? Please don't throw petty rocks when you're smack dab in the middle of a glass house. I know you're an honorable person, so I'll give you a change to fix this, and notify all of the other concerned countries (UK, Wales, Isle of Man, etc etc etc - you know the drill)--KarlB (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Warden, I'm sure you chose that book quite by random and it is merely an unfortunate choice. However, in citing it, you neglected a part of the title that refers to the period it covers: 1100-1400. Like many of the books that Karl is citing, it's a history book. We already have History of the British Isles. We don't need a second one. Neither do we need a second article dealing with the contemporary politics of the region. --RA (talk) 12:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunate because it rebuts the argument of the nomination? As for the history of the British Isles, that's a broad subject which has many subdivisions: geological history; economic history; military history; religious history. The political history of the region is quite valid as a topic. Warden (talk) 13:57, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Additional sources:

A source that tackles the issue from a modern light, see here: The British-Irish Council: Nordic Lessons for the Council of the Isles. This is an excellent paper, which analyzes the British irish council and other multilateral bodies, and compares them with the nordic council; it also looks at the history of bilateralism and multilaterlism, including a useful table on citizens rights for voting, residency, tax, social security, etc
Academic research center Atlantic Archipelagos Research Project (AARP) - whose purpose is to take an interdisciplinary view on how Britain’s post-devolution state inflects the formation of post-split Welsh, Scottish and English identities in the context of Ireland’s own experience of partition and self-rule. Consider the significance of this island grouping to the understanding of a Europe that exists in a range of configurations; from large scale political union, to provinces, dependencies, and micro-nationalist regions (such as Cornwall), each with their contribution and presence. Reconsider relations across our island grouping in light of issues regarding the management and use of the environment.

This all demonstrates that there is more to the story than just a simple bilateral relationship. RA, I appreciate your comments, but you seem to be making the point that people have done historical analysis of the politics of the Isles - that's ok; and you seem to agree that there are bilateral relations in the isles - between the UK and Ireland - ok (which you will note is not really repeated in the article at all) But, you are completely ignoring the devolved countries of the isles (which are now empowered to act on their on behalf in certain areas), and the crown dependencies, and the multilateral bodies, and the various bilaterla/multilateral political arrangements - none of this material is covered well in a survey form anywhere - you have to go the individual articles or categories. I note that we have a whole template devoted to this, and a whole section of the British Isles article is devoted to governance - so the question is, if we have a template, and a category, and books and articles written about this, what is the wikipedia-policy based argument for delete - besides the fact that people don't like the name? Would you accept this if it was called "Political economy of the atlantic archipelago"? --KarlB (talk) 13:59, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Strong, as strong as on ox, keep, keep, keep (bullshit of course, we should either say keep or delete) For the reasons outlined by Warden. There's a book on the subject for heaven's sake. What more justification could there be for keeping such as article about a very real subject - historical or otherwise. Van Speijk (talk) 14:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 35: / Line 35: @@
 * Academic research center [http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/english/research/projects/aarp/ Atlantic Archipelagos Research Project (AARP)] - whose purpose is to take an interdisciplinary view on how Britain’s post-devolution state inflects the formation of post-split Welsh, Scottish and English identities in the context of Ireland’s own experience of partition and self-rule. Consider the significance of this island grouping to the understanding of a Europe that exists in a range of configurations; from large scale political union, to provinces, dependencies, and micro-nationalist regions (such as Cornwall), each with their contribution and presence. Reconsider relations across our island grouping in light of issues regarding the management and use of the environment.
 This all demonstrates that there is more to the story than just a simple bilateral relationship. RA, I appreciate your comments, but you seem to be making the point that people have done historical analysis of the politics of the Isles - that's ok; and you seem to agree that there are bilateral relations in the isles - between the UK and Ireland - ok (which you will note is not really repeated in the article at all) But, you are completely ignoring the devolved countries of the isles (which are now empowered to act on their on behalf in certain areas), and the crown dependencies, and the multilateral bodies, and the various bilaterla/multilateral political arrangements - none of this material is covered well in a survey form anywhere - you have to go the individual articles or categories. I note that we have a whole template devoted to this, and a whole section of the [[British Isles]] article is devoted to governance - so the question is, if we have a template, and a category, and books and articles written about this, what is the wikipedia-policy based argument for delete - besides the fact that people don't like the name? Would you accept this if it was called "Political economy of the atlantic archipelago"? --[[User:Karl.brown|KarlB]] ([[User talk:Karl.brown|talk]]) 13:59, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
+* '''Keep'''. Strong, as strong as on ox, keep, keep, keep (bullshit of course, we should either say keep or delete) For the reasons outlined by Warden. There's a book on the subject for heaven's sake. What more justification could there be for keeping such as article about a very real subject - historical or otherwise. [[User:Van Speijk|Van Speijk]] ([[User talk:Van Speijk|talk]]) 14:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)