Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Politics in the British Isles

Politics in the British Isles

Politics in the British Isles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) (another term used to describe the same)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) (another term used to describe the same)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) (another term used to describe the same)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL) (another term used to describe the same)

Conflation of geographic term (British Isles) with politics. Politics occurs in the sovereign states as in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. It does not occur within a geographic area like the British Isles. For example, we do not have a Politics in the Levant article. Multiple OR issues. Snappy (talk) 21:54, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Snappy (talk) 22:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Snappy (talk) 22:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

• Strong delete This is pure OR and another of Karl's pointless cats/articles. BTW I do not need Karl commenting on my input. And can I also request that he keeps his input to the absolute minimum here (and for that matter at other delete discussions). Thanks. Bjmullan (talk) 22:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
• strong keep Politics in the British Isles is the subject of endless streams of ink. Given the shared history (see History of the British Isles and recent creation of multi-lateral bodies whose scope is the whole of the British isles, a survey article like this one is completely reasonable, not OR, and obviously notable. If your general argument is with the intersection of politics and regions, well, we also have Water politics in the Middle East, Water politics in the Nile Basin, Politics of the Caribbean, Politics of the European Union, Politics of Europe, for starters; but I suppose you might respond that WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS? If you can point out the OR, you are of course welcome to improve the article. I'm just not sure why you are saying this article is OR, or which parts are OR? Also, this is not WP:SYN, because no additional conclusions are being drawn about politics in the british isles that isn't supported by references. Nice to see you too BJ. --KarlB (talk) 22:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
• comment here is a recent book source, which uses a similar title to that of this article:
  • Nicholas Aylott, Iain Ogilvie, John Barry (2003). The Politics of the British Isles: A Comparative Introduction. Sage Pubs. ISBN 978-0761969600.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) --KarlB (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment OK, this is getting tedious. I think we have a problem here and would direct Karl to examine the Wikipedia:General sanctions with regard to the term "British Isles". While Karl's exact behavior is not typical of the sort we have seen before on this issue it is touching on disruptive and is certainly tendentious. --RA (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Hi. Thanks RA for your suggestion; I have read about the general sanctions, but in this case I don't think there is a violation; in fact the discussions on the CfD have brought to light lots of interesting material about politics within and between these countries. While the category is fine, an article is also of value here. If we end up renaming the category, then the article could be renamed too, but I don't see that as a reason to delete. I welcome your continued contributions to improve the encyclopedia. --KarlB (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
• comment for another reference, attesting notibility, see this recent book: The Atlantic Archipelago A Political History of the British Isles "Presents a comprehensive political history of what are usually known as the British Isles without taking an Anglocentric point of view."] If you are searching for sources, I'd suggest looking under 'Atlantic archipelago' as well, as many sources are now using this term. If wikipedia moves to this term as well, then of course this article should be renamed. But I'd ask all those voting to please consider this is a deletion discussion, not a renaming discussion, so the title is not at issue - what is at issue is whether the contents are notable and sourced.--KarlB (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note: The following editors have been canvassed for their participation: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. --RA (talk) 08:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

RA, are you suggesting that Karl should not have carried out this "canvassing" ? Van Speijk (talk) 14:16, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually I thank RA for notifying this discussion, something I should have done myself. I believe the notifications were fair; they were not done with any knowledge of political positions (they were just people who recently edited the related article History of the British Isles).--KarlB (talk) 17:09, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

At best, this is excessive cross-posting, per WP:CANVASS#Spamming_and_excessive_cross-posting. The notification of a group of no less than 9 individual editors is quite excessive. It may have been relevant to place a link to this CfD at Talk:History of the British Isles, but the notification of individual editors looks to me like an attempt to select a particular group. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:39, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. There is a common political system - with variations - in most of the area and a different system in the Irish state. This article is the equivalent of a basket of apples with one pear. The same is not true of Europe, the EU, the Middle East etc. An article on bilateral relations between the UK and Ireland makes sense. This does not. Scolaire (talk) 09:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Delete As a POV fork redundant content fork. There are only two sovereign states in the archipelago. The politics of the archipelago is thus more than sufficiently met by Ireland-United Kingdom relations and the main British Isles article. The mere existence of a particular string of words in a published source (in this case "politics of the British Isles", or just, as easily, "British-Irish politics", or "Anglo-Irish politics", etc.) does not, in itself, merit a separate article. --RA (talk) 09:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Looks like Karl is now looking to canvas: [10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15], [16] and [17]. Bjmullan (talk) 09:28, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Actually, what I did was notify the editors who had recently editied 'History of the British Isles' as this article is clearly related. I notified them in a neutral fashion and did not base the notification on any particular pov. So, the notification was within the bounds. Thanks for your efforts to improve the encyclopedia.--KarlB (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
• Keep The claim of the nomination - that politics "does not occur within a geographic area like the British Isles" - is obviously false and seems quite tendentious. There seem to be plenty of sources which frame the topic in this way and here's another one: The Political Development of the British Isles. Warden (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not occur within geographic areas, it occurs within nation states, and what goes on between is covered in bilateral relations, e.g. Ireland-United Kingdom relations. As RA has pointed out, this article is large duplicate and pov fork of Ireland-United Kingdom relations. I also am concerned that KarlB's canvassing has turned into campaigning, in an effort to stack the !vote. Snappy (talk) 11:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so your claim is that politics cannot occur between nation states? Or politics can *only* be bilateral? You seem to forget the multi-lateral relations in the isles, which are well documented in the article. Perhaps you'd care to read it? --KarlB (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Also Snappy, I appreciate your unfounded concern; it was not canvassing, as explained above. I do note however that you added this to the list of 'Ireland'-related discussions, but you neglected to add it to any other countries (like, say, the UK). I wonder who is trying to stack the vote now? Please don't throw petty rocks when you're smack dab in the middle of a glass house. I know you're an honorable person, so I'll give you a chance to fix this, and notify all of the other concerned countries (UK, Wales, Isle of Man, etc etc etc - you know the drill)--KarlB (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

@Warden, I'm sure you chose that book quite by random and it is merely an unfortunate choice. However, in citing it, you neglected a part of the title that refers to the period it covers: 1100-1400. Like many of the books that Karl is citing, it's a history book. We already have History of the British Isles. We don't need a second one. Neither do we need a second article dealing with the contemporary politics of the region. --RA (talk) 12:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Unfortunate because it rebuts the argument of the nomination? As for the history of the British Isles, that's a broad subject which has many subdivisions: geological history; economic history; military history; religious history. The political history of the region is quite valid as a topic. Warden (talk) 13:57, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Additional sources:

• A source that tackles the issue from a modern light, see here: The British-Irish Council: Nordic Lessons for the Council of the Isles. This is an excellent paper, which analyzes the British irish council and other multilateral bodies, and compares them with the nordic council; it also looks at the history of bilateralism and multilaterlism, including a useful table on citizens rights for voting, residency, tax, social security, etc
• Academic research center Atlantic Archipelagos Research Project (AARP) - whose purpose is to take an interdisciplinary view on how Britain’s post-devolution state inflects the formation of post-split Welsh, Scottish and English identities in the context of Ireland’s own experience of partition and self-rule. Consider the significance of this island grouping to the understanding of a Europe that exists in a range of configurations; from large scale political union, to provinces, dependencies, and micro-nationalist regions (such as Cornwall), each with their contribution and presence. Reconsider relations across our island grouping in light of issues regarding the management and use of the environment.

This all demonstrates that there is more to the story than just a simple bilateral relationship. RA, I appreciate your comments, but you seem to be making the point that people have done historical analysis of the politics of the Isles - that's ok; and you seem to agree that there are bilateral relations in the isles - between the UK and Ireland - ok (which you will note is not really repeated in the article at all) But, you are completely ignoring the devolved countries of the isles (which are now empowered to act on their on behalf in certain areas), and the crown dependencies, and the multilateral bodies, and the various bilaterla/multilateral political arrangements - none of this material is covered well in a survey form anywhere - you have to go the individual articles or categories. I note that we have a whole template devoted to this, and a whole section of the British Isles article is devoted to governance - so the question is, if we have a template, and a category, and books and articles written about this, what is the wikipedia-policy based argument for delete - besides the fact that people don't like the name? Would you accept this if it was called "Political economy of the atlantic archipelago"? --KarlB (talk) 13:59, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Keep. Strong, as strong as an ox, keep, keep, keep (bullshit of course, we should either say keep or delete) For the reasons outlined by Warden. There's a book on the subject for heaven's sake. What more justification could there be for keeping such as article about a very real subject - historical or otherwise. Van Speijk (talk) 14:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

@Van Spike and Karl, the book Warden cites is about the politics of the Isles between the 12th and 15th century. We already have History of the British Isles.

@Karl:

• "...the devolved countries of the isles..." — Ah, all parts of the UK. See, Ireland-UK relations.
• "…and the crown dependencies.." — Ah, dependencies of the UK. See, Ireland-UK relations
• "...and the multilateral bodies…" — Ah, compose of Ireland and different parts/depedencies of the UK. See, Ireland-UK relations.
• "…the various bilateral/multilateral political arrangements…" — Ah, between Ireland and different parts/dependencies of the UK. See, Ireland-UK relations.

Karl, you can cite as many sources as you like. An article on this topic already exists. See Ireland-UK relations. --RA (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks RA, I appreciate your comments; I hope you will take time to read and understand what those sources suggest; almost all of the sources I've cited are modern. I simply will note that, as you well know, the crown dependencies are not dependencies of the UK, they are dependencies of the British Crown. While I appreciate that some believe that "politics" only happens between sovereign nations, I think the evidence shows otherwise. As long as the crown dependencies are not part of the UK, political arrangements involving them should not be considered under Ireland-UK relations - especially in cases like Sellafield controversy, where Ireland and the Isle of Man are working together to pressure the UK government. That hardly sounds like a bilateral relationship to me.--KarlB (talk) 16:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note: I've added effectively all of this article to Ireland-United Kingdom relations. All of it is good stuff IMO and is a great addition to that article. However, doing so only underlines that this is a POV fork of that article. --RA (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  So you've taken material from this article, added it to another, and then claim this article is a POV fork of that other article? (further)Words fail me! BTW, could you answer my question about canvassing above. Thanks, Van Speijk (talk) 16:45, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  I have reverted RA's change to Ireland-United Kingdom relations. I appreciate his good faith efforts to improve the wiki; just in this case it is best to complete this AfD before copying 12000k of text from one article to another and thus creating a fork of the content (that would then be edited in two places - ugh). I'm sure if a merge is proposed, then this content can be merged over. Thanks again for the kind words about the content RA.--KarlB (talk) 17:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Keep There are political organisations that operate in both countries of the British Isles, that alone I think would justify this article. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 16:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  @Van, yes. This article is a redundent a content fork. I've included the material form the fork in the original now. It is an enhancement. Just because something is a fork doesn't mean it's wrong or that it's text is bad. It's just, we can't have two articles on the same subject.

  Regarding your question on Karls' canvassing, acceptable and unacceptable forms of canvassing are described in WP:CANVASS. It is not immediately obvious to me why Karl chose to notify those specific editors. They do not appear to be people "who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics), who are known for expertise in the field, or who have asked to be kept informed"

OK, thanks for the clarification. Van Speijk (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• @CoE - "...that operate in both countries of the British Isles..." Both countries. Ireland and the United Kingdom. I'll point again to UK-Ireland relations. An article on this topic already exists. --RA (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - Why is there a culture section on what is supposed to be a politics article? We already have a British Isles article. Snappy (talk) 16:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks; its a good question; and certainly could be debated; I linked out to the main culture section in the British Isles article; I just thought it might be useful to have a stub here, as shared culture is an important part of politics and identity formation, and of course sports are an important proxy for politics, but it should remain short given more content elsewhere. Thanks for your comment, and I hope you'll consider improving the article itself rather than focusing on deleting it.--KarlB (talk) 17:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  Fair point Snappy, we could remove that section. Maybe have a 'See also' or something. Van Speijk (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• comment oh dear. [18]. RA, as the one who made the first edit, would you mind asking Snappy and others to stop the forking? There is no need to maintain two copies of this article while it is under discussion. As soon as the discussion is finished, if the decision is merge, we will do so - but it is silly and even disruptive to do so in advance.--KarlB (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  You're the one who created the fork in the first place, so don't throw stones when you're in a glass house yourself. Snappy (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  Actually, this is not a fork; it is mostly new material. The fork is when you copy 12k and paste it into another article. I've gone ahead and reverted, so that when you make constructive edits, they will all be centralized here; then of course if a merge happens, all the better.--KarlB (talk) 17:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

  Karl, see Wikipedia:Content forking:

  A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject. Content forks that are created unintentionally result in redundant or conflicting articles and are to be avoided.

  We can't have two articles on the same thing. --RA (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Delete It should be known by now that the Republic of Ireland is an independent country. Night of the Big Wind _talk 21:42, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

It is known. What has that got to do with anything? Van Speijk (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Night of the Big Wind. I want to thank you for your comment. I think you have a good point - we need to be very clear in this article that Ireland (RoI) is not a subservient state of the United Kingdom. If you look at the article, you will note that the first sentence in the history section says that there are two sovereign nations in the British isles (RoI and UK). I've also, as a result of your comment, added a hatnote to the top of the page, which attempts to explain the purpose of this page, and to distinguish it from Ireland-United Kingdom relations, so thanks for inspiring me to clarify further.

In terms of the scope of this article, for example, a discussion about a joint arrangement between Isle of Man, Ireland, and Scotland around the Irish Sea would fit better here than in Ireland-United Kingdom relations, since the Isle of Man is not part of the UK.

In short, I welcome your further thoughts on the issues, and if you have other suggestions on how to improve either the content, or even the name of the page so as to not give a mistaken impression, they would be appreciated.

I realize this name can cause some consternation, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be another good name in common use, but I suppose we could use the academic sounding 'atlantic archipelago'. In any case, I do hope that we can differentiate between whether the content is useful and encyclopedic, and our own personal feelings debates about the title (an article can always be renamed). Thanks again.--KarlB (talk) 23:56, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Back up the truck. Karl, you wrote below that you wanted to have a "reasoned discussion", but what you write here shows the opposite. Dismissing another editor's reasoned concerns as "personal feelings" is a form of words which has the effect of devaluing their contribution to the discussion, and your repeated use of that sort of response looks like trolling. Please stop it.

There are plenty of reasons why "British Isles" may be contested as a term, and they are not simply "personal feelings"; they are longstanding policy of the government of Ireland. You may choose to ignore that factor, but please have the manners not to dismiss it as "personal feelings".

Secondly, there is the question of whether the geographical area referred to by some POVs as the "British Isles" is the appropriate scope for an article politics. If you do actually want a "reasoned discussion", don't dismiss that as "personal feelings". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment This is now worringly tenditious, especially as a quick look at Karl's recent creation history demonstrates an unwillingness on his part to accept a single objection raised by any editor, and the fact that this is now the 3rd or 4th open discussion involving one of Karl's creations. I've seen objections raised on one discussion totally ignored and the same points raised on the next discussion. Is this not precisely the behaviour that WP:GS/BI was set up to deal with? --HighKing (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

  HighKing is right. Karl's tendentiousness here is becoming extremely disruptive, and the fact that all of his recent creations in this are have been opposed by a significant number of editors would give a reasonable editor pause for thought. Instead of stepping back and seeking consensus, KarlB continues to create more of these pointy pages, and engages in a verbose battleground response when challenged. WP:GS/BI will be needed soon. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks, if you have ideas on how to rename or reframe the contents they would be most welcome. I appreciate your continued contributions to improve the encyclopedia.--KarlB (talk) 13:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

  Karl, first of all drop the "I appreciate your continued contributions" pasting. It is superfluous, and since most of editors with whom you are interacting have a much longer contribution history than you, it comes across as a form of sneering.

  Secondly, if you want suggestions on how to reframe or reuse the contents, then I offer you one simple solution: start by deleting this page. Keep a copy in userspace, and take the time to have a long discussion with other editors on how to approach these complex topics. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• Delete. This piece is yet another WP:POINTy creation by KarlB, a synthesis of disparate topics created in furtherance of his campaign to construct the notion of a common polity across the so-called British Isles, and designed to serve as a head article for his self-created Category:Politics of the British Isles. The topics covered are primarily a hybrid of 1) A fork of Ireland–United Kingdom relations, and 2) a description of government structures and international relations in the islands. Neither aspect is best described as "politics".
  There may be some content in here which could be re-used in neutrally-focused articles, so I would be happy for the page to be userified. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
• Delete. Per BHG above and also NPOV. In a strictly political sense use of the term 'British Isles' is seen by the Irish Government as politically unacceptable and very deliberately not used, which appears not to upset the other parties in the least. Best to leave political negotiations over political terminology to the politicians and not force on Wikipedia phrasing that is eschewed by the parties concerned. Editor's are free to think what they like of the respective governments' positions, but it is as it is. RashersTierney (talk) 14:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
• Weak keep - the argument for deletion seems to be based solely on the notion that politics is something wholly independent of geography, which is sheer nonsense. Other editors have provided reference material that shows the subject is notable in its own right. The article itself could do with some work, but having read through the discussion on this page I can see no good reason why there shouldn't be an article on this subject on Wikipedia. waggers (talk) 11:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

  There is an article on this subject on Wikipedia: Ireland-United Kingdom relations. There is nothing substantively different about this article, nor can there be: there are only two sovereign states in the archipelago. --RA (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Content forks

Well the bold move by RA has caused a bit of a mess. We now have massive duplication of content across two articles. I've tried reverting, but I've hit my limit; so if other eds want to help, it would be appreciated; I can't participate in an edit war. Snappy is almost out of reverts too by the way. Again, I call on everyone to stop the content forking; keep the content in this article without forking it to another article, and await the outcome of the AfD. Otherwise it's just making a WP:POINT, e.g disrupting wikipedia to make a point.--KarlB (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

"I've tried reverting, but I've hit my limit; so if other eds want to help, it would be appreciated..." — Karl inviting tag teaming is not a good road to go down.

"I can't participate in an edit war. Snappy is almost out of reverts too by the way." — And neither is blatant battlefield-ism.

This is an area in which community sanctions and related ArbCom rulings exist. You would be well-advised to be very careful how you thread. --RA (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

thanks again for the warning. I would appreciate it if you would try to see my side, as I've tried to see yours. I think we have room to have a reasoned discussion here, especially since you seem to agree that the content itself is useful. Given that, pre-emptively merging, before consensus has been reached here, impedes full consensus formation and leads to duplicate maintenance of a lot of new content (as has already started happening). I also feel like you're angry, and lashing out.

RA, there isn't a rush, and if a merge is the consensus outcome, then all of that content will be moved over in due time. I'd thus like to kindly ask you to consider reverting your edits to the Ireland-UK relations article. If you want to show people what it *could* be like, then just point them to an old diff. As you can see passions are rising here, and I appeal to the levelheaded logic that you have showed in other threads, to bring this back to a reasonable conversation, rather than wikitricks like:

Ed1: Article A is a POV fork of Article B

Ed2: where's the proof?

Ed1: watch - I just copied everything from A into B - see - now A is a POV fork of B!!'

This kind of sneakiness is not becoming of you. I know you are an honorable editor, and I have faith that your better judgement will prevail; I agree content forks are bad, so why create one 7 days before the AfD is closed?

Also, I grow rather tired of pointing out that the crown dependencies are not part of the UK, so I'm not sure why *anything* about them belongs in the Ireland-UK article. My friends in the channel islands would be quite miffed by this assertion that they are just 'dependencies of the UK'. They're not.--KarlB (talk) 20:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Karl, there is a pattern here.

You create content which reflects your view of a highly contentious issue. Many people object, and you edit-war, reply at huge length, all the while claiming that you want a "reasoned discussion". However, you are so verbose that reasoned discussion becomes impossible in the limited format of a talk page, and your style of participation is always to defend your initial position against all opposition. This is classic WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, uncannily like the view parodied in WP:TRUTH.

WP:GS/BI may soon be brought into play. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:50, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I welcome your suggestions on how to improve this article, or even rename it. What if we did a rename to Multilateral relations between Ireland, UK, devolved governments of the UK, and the Channel islands? or something less wordy? While I appreciate your POV, it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black to say I edit war - because you were edit warring just the other day if I recall correctly - you made 3 reverts to a page [19] [20] [21]. You also have a tendency to reply at huge length. In any case, let's just have a cup of tea, and focus on improving the encyclopedia; the content is not OR (it is well sourced), and it is not SYN either, because there aren't conclusions being drawn that aren't present in the sources; and it's not just my POV - an archipelagic 'outlook' is a perspective held by many scholars and historians; there is even a literary journal devoted to literature and writing from the archipelago: [22] and a research center devoted to this topic [23]. So I'd simply ask that you overlook for now the title of the article, and focus on the content - how could we improve the content, and how might the article be renamed?--KarlB (talk) 14:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

"What if we did a rename to Multilateral relations between Ireland, UK, devolved governments of the UK, and the Channel islands [the Crown Dependencies of the UK]?" — Then we would still have two articles on the same subject. We already have an article on Ireland-United Kingdom relations. All of the sources you cite describe just that. All of the institutions you list are ones created by Ireland and the UK as part of their relations. --RA (talk) 14:50, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm really quite confused RA. Why do you continue to insist that the crown dependencies belong to the UK, or are part of it? --KarlB (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Karl, have you actually read what I wrote above? Your reply gives little impression that you have done so.

The fundamental problem with this article is its scope, which seeks to conflate the politics of two independent nation-states and the dependencies of one of those states. This is not a historical article -- we already have History of the British Isles for that -- it sets out to be a political article. And in the study of comparative politics, authors may select geographical or other groupings as the basis of their comparison -- but that alone does not make for either a neutral or a notable topic.

Renaming it will not solve those problems.

There is a secondary problem of content, in that the article is a strange hybrid of governmental structure and international relations; very odd. There is a third problem, of naming, in that the use of the POV term "British Isles", which colors the readers perception of the international relations involved.

As to the edit-warring response, you have a lot to learn. When a contribution of yours is reverted, and you continue to restore it despite repeated requests to discuss it, you clearly have not read WP:BRD. This section opens with a request by your for other editors to join you in a tag-team edit war, so you clearly have not changed your behaviour. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

The crown dependencies are not dependencies of the united kingdom.[24]. I appreciate you disagree with the scope; do you discount the multiple sources I've provided that use a similar scope for politics and political history? --KarlB (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Karl, you are either playing silly games, or posing refs without reading them (just you did in another discussion). The link you posted above (to the Queen's own website at http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/QueenandCrowndependencies/ChannelIslands.aspx) says quite clearly "The United Kingdom government is responsible for the defence and international relations of the Islands, and the Crown is ultimately responsible for their good government". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Trust me, I've read those articles a lot. One of the first things they always say is "The crown dependencies are not part of the UK". That much is clear. And, they can act independently, even internationally, in some cases; for example, signing of tax treaties agreements. They have special membership rights within the european union; in short, while they are not sovereign nations, they are not just part of the UK, and thus in an article on Ireland-UK relations, they don't belong.--KarlB (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Karl, I hope nobody disagrees with your second statement., viz, that "The crown dependencies are not part of the UK".

However, in the post to which i was replying, you wrote something different: that "the crown dependencies are not dependencies of the united kingdom". That is a very important distinction.

The dependencies are dependencies of the crown, but since the crown acts solely on the advice of its ministers, the distinction is one of constitutional labelling rather than practice. The actual practice is that the crown's relationship with the Channel islands is handled through government departments in Whitehall, by ministers of the crown and their civil servants.

As to the rest of what you write, you seem to be saying that you know better than the Crown itself, which says "The United Kingdom government is responsible for the defence and international relations of the Islands". So let's have a one-word answer from you: is that statement on the Crown's website True or False? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:54, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The Isle of Man has not signed any tax treaties, or treaties in any field for that matter. It has several agreements with states relating to taxation matters, which are referred to as such because it does not have such capacity in law. This is not a minor point wrt an apparent misunderstanding you have regarding competencies in the field of foreign relations. RashersTierney (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Karl, please don't play word games. Next you'll be telling us that the United Kingdom doesn't have a government — "Her Majesty" does. FYI the UK Ministry of Justice is the department with responsibility for the three Crown Dependencies.

The key point is that there is no substantive difference between this article and Ireland-United Kingdom relations. There are only two sovereign states in the region: Ireland and the United Kingdom. All other polities in the region are either part of the UK or a dependency of it. And the institutions you list are UK-Ireland institutions. That is what makes this article a content fork. Its about the same topic, just from a different point-of-view (POV). --RA (talk) 18:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Restart

Note - the below should be construed as my opinion, and not a statement of fact about other's positions

I think we've made a lot of progress in this discussion thus far. I think I've learned several things:

1. Some editors think the content is POV, WP:OR, and WP:SYN, and should be summarily deleted
2. Other editors strongly support this article, and appreciate its contents
3. A small minority - RA and Snappy - seem to believe that the content in this article is extremely valuable; so much so that Snappy has edit-warred [25], [26] to keep the (copied) content safe in Ireland-United Kingdom relations; and RA is spending precious time copying over fresh content from Politics in the British Isles to Ireland-United Kingdom relations (ex: [27]) (sadly losing some other editors edits in the process), so he's effectively helping maintain two copies of the content on the wiki. I can only suppose he thinks this content is so good, it's worth maintaining two copies for now (instead of waiting for the outcome of this discussion) - and who am I to judge?

Thus to me it seems there are 3 main points of view - two strands that agree with the content, and one strand which does not. It's a most fascinating discussion.

At present, the discussion seems to have tumbled into a deep hole of legal logic - and arguments are being brought forth to establish whether Isle of Man/Jersey/Guernsey are in fact dependencies of the United Kingdom, or are they dependencies of the British Crown, and does it matter? In any case, while there is no agreement on *that* point, there is agreement on the following:

1. The crown dependencies are not part of the United Kingdom and
2. There are two sovereign states in the British Isles

So, at this point, at least for those who agree on the content, the question is a rather simple one - where should the content go? Is it reasonable to have an article covering the numerous multilateral relationships between Ireland, United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, and to treat these arrangements separately from the direct bi-lateral relationships between the central Irish state and the government of the UK? To see why "bilateral" relations does not capture the complexity here, see [28]; the relationships engendered by the British-Irish council are almost always described as multilateral. As another example, we have the Sellafield controversy, where Irish and Isle of Man governments are working together to pressure the UK government to shut down a reactor. Multilateralism at its finest!

As for those who think the content is rubbish, you may want to have a look here Ireland-United_Kingdom_relations#Co-operation, as the same content was copy/pasted, and now has multiplied and is producing offspring (e.g. *new* content). So if this content is *really* bad, you may want to have a word with RA.

In any case, I propose a compromise, and a way forward:

• Rename the article to Multilateral relations and politics between Ireland, devolved governments of the UK and the Crown dependencies. This avoids the term 'British isles'. We would then keep Ireland-United Kingdom relations focused on the bilateral relations (and entities) between the countries, which are significant (and worth much more work), and keep this article linked from that one. In addition, instead of a heated discussion here, we could spend time working together on improving the article.--KarlB (talk) 23:22, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

As usual, Karl's comment is far too verbose. It should simply have consisted of the final paragraph, which is his concrete proposal to rename the article as Multilateral relations and politics between Ireland, devolved governments of the UK and the Crown dependencies.

That title is incredibly long, and its sheer length is reminiscent of an essay rather than encyclopedic title. The only reason for the proposal of such a verbose title is Karl's determination to pursue his POV that there is a "politics of the British Isles", which he is now prepared to accommodate by dropping the contested labels.

There is no need for this page, which remains a POV split from Ireland-United Kingdom relations. The material in this article can all be accommodated in Ireland-United Kingdom relations, without making it unduly long, and RA acted quite properly in copying the relevant material there so that it can be reworked as appropriate. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

So just to be clear, you're suggesting that a merge of an article, in advance of consensus at AfD, when a merge is one of the proposed outcomes of the AfD, is a *good* idea and RA should be commended for doing so (rather than waiting until the AfD was complete)? I always thought encouraging the creation of content forks and pre-empting consensus was not supported by admins...--KarlB (talk) 03:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

also, please note, I've always been willing to accommodate a title change, and have suggested the same several times. I do wish, given that now you seem to be in the camp that supports the content (and not the title/location), that you would help come up with a better title... --KarlB (talk) 03:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

No new title is needed, and I don't "support the content". I support the coverage of some of these issues, in the appropriate place, which is at Ireland-United Kingdom relations. The content of this article should be merged there, and revised to eliminate problems such as disagrecefully-biased "scholarly perspectives" section. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

"I always thought encouraging the creation of content forks and pre-empting consensus was not supported by admins..." - Karl, the redundant article is Politics in the British Isles, which you (in good faith) created.

There is a reasonable argument that the Crown Dependencies are not (strictly speaking) a part of the UK. However, given their constitutional relationship with the the UK and their minor role in the politics of the archipelago, any article on Ireland-United Kingdom relations, or Politics of the British Isles, or any other combination of words, is going to be substantively the same. That is a real cause for concern. We cannot have two articles on the substantively the same topic but written from different points of view (POVs).

Now, this does raise questions about the title of Ireland-United Kingdom relations. A discussion on that may be merited. Alternatively, we could simply add a note to the introduction explaining that, for the purposes of the article (and given the subject matter), we are including the Crown Dependencies in discussion of the topic (but explain that, strictly speaking, they are not part of the UK). Individual articles, such as Ireland-Isle of Man relations, are still helpful IMO. --RA (talk) 10:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks RA. I appreciate your response. I do wish you would reconsider, and remove the fork until this discussion is finished. it is causing no end of trouble; for example, duplicate maintenance on different parts of the content.

The question now seems to be about whether the content is best served in one article, or in two. Every single XX-XX relations article I've seen is about bi-lateral relations. And, as you've pointed out, the crown dependencies are not only *not* part of the UK, they're not even *technically* part of the UK. They have no representation in parliament,and they have authority to negotiate tax agreements, they have 'special' position within the EU, and if Isle of Man and Ireland are both pressuring UK to do something, how can that be captured as a bi-lateral relationship? Ireland regularly indulges in bi-lateral relations with the UK, and has bi-lateral bodies like the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference, and they have Ango-Irish summits. There is so *much* content that could be written just on bi-lateral relations, and that's where it belongs. But this content is different, is it looking at an all-islands perspective; I think it deserves it's own article.--KarlB (talk) 13:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)