Talk:Red dot sight

New article

Article created based on sub-type. Invention still needs a ref. There are primary sources showing the John Arne Ingemund Ekstrand patent but no reliable source saying this is the invention. FYI there is a great deal of old talk about "Red dod sights" at Talk:Reflex sight. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Unverified edits

Removed this to talk because it seems to be advert copy for the Firearms Research Limited/"Shield Mini Sight". This needs reliable sources before its re-added. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Apologies in advance if I inadvertently trip over the guidelines - I am new to Wikipedia and somewhat overwhelmed by the reaction to adding material to the 'red dot sights' page. I noticed that the History section talks about Aimpoint but none of the other red dot sight pioneers so I'm keen to balance things up. I recognise a potential conflict of interest as I work for a red dot sight manufacturer, but I am hoping it is possible to contribute as we have the history physically on our shelves in the form of prototypes, tooling etc. It is possible to see the evolution from the original Firearms Research patent in 1996 to many of today's mini red dot sights, not just Shield, but the existing page doesn't cover this at all. The page also talks about the US military but not UK, which I suggest needs fixing. What is the best way forward? Thanks for your help.

MSadlerSPD (talk) 22:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, as the editor who reverted your edit I thought I would give some pointers/reasons why. In a nutshell Wikipedia does not consist of original research such as basing the claim "first" on examination of patents and making claims of undue significance based on a tangential mention in the media[1]. You need to find third party (other peoples books, publications, etc) that make these claims and that citations has to make that claim specifically. So yeah, you will find a problem posting material about your own products based on your own research. I would suggest a reading of Wikipedia guidelines. There is no rule against your editing.... when in doubt... add it. You just have to edit within the concept of an overall encyclopedia that is based on secondary sources. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidance. The issue I am trying to address is that the current article gives prominence to a single manufacturer, Aimpoint, without any third party references to support that. I would like to balance the article, not just for Shield, but companies completely unrelated to us, such as Trijicon, Ringsight and others, who made equally notable breakthroughs. In the industry, the patent I referenced is known as the single patent from which all mini red dot sights followed, but I doubt that is recorded other than in the license fees that manufacturers pay to the current patent owner, Leupold. If you have an opportunity to see the patent, you will find that it covers the key technical issue that allowed size to be reduced, but again that is not documented by any third party in the public domain. I think this part of the history is interesting and worth documenting as it dramatically affected the International Pistol Shooting community at the time. Before the patent, no mini sights, after the patent, an increasing array of mini sights following the Firepoint. In general, how are subjects that are known within an industry, but not documented formally in books or papers, get included in Wikipedia?

A particular Aimpoint product is attributed to the US military, so I thought it would be reasonable to document the red dot sight used by the UK military, backed up by a press article. There are many other articles that I could reference about the FIST equipment that is supplied to the whole UK army and there are no other red dot sights within the programme, so I suggest there is evidence supporting the significance of the CQB to the UK military. If I reference more third party articles about the FIST CQB, or a Ministry of Defence document, will I be able to include it?

Alternatively, I see that notable firearms and sights have their own pages, so is that a better route? Can anyone guide me on how the decision on 'notable' is made, for example, volume sold, military use? Thanks for any advice MSadlerSPD (talk) 09:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

There are allot of red dot sights out there, so highlighting any one in a very short history may run afoul of WP:UNDUE. Highlighted points in this section would be "first" of some type, "most used", "notable usage", etc. Aimpoint is noted because it has some reliable sourcing as the first RDS ever made (preceding Firearms Research by some 20 years BTW). First usage in the US military is notable. If there is a reliably sourced first usage in the UK, yes, that should be added. If you can expand the whole section in general that is even better. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)