Talk:Bend, Not Break

Contesting deletion

I'm removing the deletion notices, with the most recent one being a somewhat malformed version of the speedy template for spam. This is not spam, nor is there a question of the book's notability. It's received several reviews as well as several dozen articles where people discuss whether or not the claims are truthful or not. If anyone wants to pursue further deletion then that's fine, but it should be through AfD. I think it would be relatively pointless, as I've already sourced it enough to pass WP:NBOOK beyond a reasonable doubt.Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This article started off as a WP:POVFORK of Ping Fu (More accurately, it was an WP:attack. See [1] ). My understanding of policy is that it should have been made a redirect to the existing Ping Fu article.

Now, after your edits, it's a lot better, but it still has accuracy, WP:verify and WP:POV problems that are going to take a lot of work to clean up. Even if cleaned up, this article will be a WP:REDUNDANTFORK, since the book it covers is a memoir of the life of Ping Fu.

The Ping Fu page was just protected yesterday, because of some very persistent WP:Advocacy WP:SPA editors. By saving this page from deletion, you've inadvertently frustrated the purpose of protection. Plus, not only does this article not fall under any of the categories of REDUNDANTFORK#Acceptable_types_of_forking, you've bypassed the consensus process on forking.

My suggestion is that this page be made a redirect, to Ping Fu#Bend, Not Break: A Life in Two Worlds VanHarrisArt (talk) 10:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think it's perfectly reasonable to rescue an article from the deletion process, nor is there anything that states that an attack page has to remain an attack page. If something looks like it'd pass one or more notability guidelines, there's nothing that states that you can't fix the errors with the article. Since the book has received multiple reviews from RS, passes the qualifications of WP:NBOOK. If you want to pursue deletion, take it up at AfD. I don't see any glaring neutrality errors and I tried very hard to include both sides in the controversy and reception section. The thing is, until the controversy came out, this book received overwhelmingly positive reception. Does it deserve it? Dunno. The arguments against the book are fairly persuasive, as are the arguments on behalf of the author, but then the reason for this article isn't to make a choice as to which side is right or wrong. The reason is to put out more information about the book and keep the main article from turning into one overly long section about one book.Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
• I was also largely unaware of the conversation going on in the talk page for Ping Fu, but the fact remains that I feel that this book has received enough coverage independently of its author to where it merits an article. That the book is a memoir does not mean that it should be redirected to the author's page. That's a faulty and rather limited perspective, as biographies and memoirs of notable persons can and often do become notable outside of their focal subjects. The biography for Steve Jobs (Steve Jobs (book)) is a great example of a biography that is notable independently of its subject. Notability isn't inherited, but redirecting isn't always the best solution in cases like this. If it was just the controversy I'd probably agree, but it received a lot of review coverage prior to the controversy. As far as attack concerns go, we can't delete things just because they're a vandalism magnet. If you want me to put this up for AfD, then I'll do so but I don't think this merits a deletion or a redirect. I'd recommend taking it there before it's deleted or redirected. I just think that by redirecting everything to the author's page we're limiting the amount of information that is currently out there. I understand that you want to keep people from attacking her via Wikipedia, but be careful that in your zeal to protect the entries that you aren't limiting the flow of information. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
• I'd also like to know what you think isn't neutral. We have to include both sides without openly disparaging either. Actually you know what? Rather than drag this out, I'll go ahead and nominate this for AfD on your behalf. We could sit here for a few days and argue back and forth or we could run this through the AfD process and get an official decision. If they choose to redirect then I won't argue, but I think it's notable. Either way, an official consensus will give closure on a topic where AfD seems like the inevitable conclusion. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to give a little background on the neutrality issue. The essential charge that is being leveled against Ping Fu by the participants in the Human flesh search engine, the "controversy", is that she intentionally fabricated the stories in Bend Not Break.

I will not go into the bases of this charge, but those who are involved in the campaign are essentially looking for any evidence they can use to support that claim. One common practice is to find some seed of information, and use it to construct a plausible scenario, based on their own prejudices and experiences. Another practice is to look to secondary sources, misinterpret them, then make a claim based on that interepretation.

As an example, Ping Fu wrote in her book of being attacked and gang raped at a young age. The critics (I'll use this term, for lack of a better one to describe the people who are participating in this action) say that this is not possible. That she must be lying about it. They've even gone so far as wanting her to prove it, by showing her scars (Though they've even dismissed that as being sufficient proof.) There is a long thread on it here. I'm, frankly, horrified by it.

Look at the current article as another example. The Synopsis says: "The book narrates the life of Ping Fu, a computer scientist and former child soldier from China. Fu spent her early years caring for her younger sister after her parents were taken away for re-education through labor, as well as working in factories and spending time in the military. After the end of the Cultural Revolution, Fu attended Suzhou Teacher's College, where she's later deported to the United States for the contents of her thesis." This probably seems like a reasonable couple of sentences. But it's substantially wrong, on a number of points. Fu never claimed, in her book or elsewhere, that she was a child soldier, that she spent time in the military, or that she was deported to the United States. These claims derive either from misunderstandings on the part of those who wrote about her, or distortions by the critics.

To understand why this is important, you have to look at these things in a historical context. For example, Ping Fu did write that she worked in factories. But she was NOT a factory worker. To have a job as a factory worker was a great honor, and a difficult thing to achieve. What is actually the case is that during the cultural revolution, Mao ordered that children be educated by factory workers, farmers, and soldiers. So, Ping Fu worked, unpaid, in factories, and on farms, and trained with the military, in lieu of attending formal classes in a school. You might think these subtle distinctions to be trivial -- yet, her critics have made them the heart of their campaign. If a Chinese reader infers from a poorly phrased statement that she had a job in a factory, or was in the military, they would quickly dismiss, as a fabrication, her claim that she came from a "black background" and was oppressed in the cultural revolution.

This is the essence of the controversy: Half truths and misrepresentations about what Ping Fu has said or written that sound perfectly fine to westerners, but which sound completely implausible to Chinese. The issue, from a WP perspective, is that a page that looks perfectly innocuous to most people, may be constructed in such a way that it can be used by critics to launch attacks against Ping Fu. (Literally 4 of these pages have been speedy deleted on WP in just the last 2 days.)

Your characterization of the controversy on this page is misleading. It says "Bend, Not Break has received criticism over some of its content, with some critics questioning the validity and truthfulness of some passages..." In fact, most critics have admitted that they did not actually read the book (and hence, can't criticize it.) It is actually Ping Fu who the critics have focused on, claiming that she is a liar, who fabricated not just the book, but the stories about her life.

If you want to keep this page, it needs to focus only on the book. Given the critics' conflation of Ping Fu and Bend Not Break, I think it's going to be difficult. VanHarrisArt (talk) 12:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)