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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

The purpose of the workshop is for the parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee to post proposed components of the final decisions for review and comment. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions, which are the four types of proposals that can be included in the final decision. The workshop also includes a section (at the page-bottom) for analysis of the /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

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Proposed temporary injunctions

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Questions to the parties

Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Llywrch

Proposed principles

Religion and controversy

1) Articles about religion tend to be very controversial.

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Stating the obvious -- llywrch (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed findings of fact

John Carter and Ignocrates dispute

1) Users John Carter & Ignocrates have been feuding over certain Christianity-related articles for years

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Acknowledging a fact that has perhaps made this dispute more acrimonious than it should have been: attitudes calcify, people see what they want to see, etc. -- llywrch (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship between Judaism and early Christianity

2) Early Christianity & Judaism of the 1st century CE have a number of beliefs & concepts in common; determining what they are should be performed on the discussion pages of the relevant talk pages

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I rather disagree with this proposal, actually. The question really isn't about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, but rather about the amount of weight to give content relating to certain modern views of the early Christian community, more specifically regarding the James-led Jewish Christians of Jeruslaem. There does seem to me, based on having looked over a number of recent reference sources dealing with the topic, to be rather widespread support for a "Jewish-Christian" core group of early Christians in Jerusalem, but serious question regarding the amount of strength that those sources give such, and even more question regarding exactly how to support this belief. I would also note that in general this falls within the broad field of early Christianity, which is itself a matter of serious contention within and without the academic community right now, and that more or less is the basis for my proposal for some sort of discretionary sanctions or quick-trigger for the imposition of discretionary sanctions in my section below. John Carter (talk) 00:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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This is what the John Carter vs. Ignocrates feud is ostensibly about; no matter how ArbCom decides this case, resolving the relevance & validity of these facts is not one of them & should be left to such Wikipedia processes as WP:BRD. -- llywrch (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Interaction ban

1) John Carter & Ignocrates shall neither communicate with nor comment upon each other directly or indirectly on any page in the English Wikipedia, & shall report any perceived violations to the ArbCom. Violations shall be handled by an uninvolved Admin per terms the ArbCom will decide.

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Based on Ks0stm's suggestion, & slavishly cribbed from this ArbCom decision. I consider this the point of departure for discussion: based on evidence provided, the ArbCom may decide to be more or less strict, or decide another remedy is more appropriate. -- llywrch (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This might be reasonable, unless Arbs can find more serious violations by sides than appear right now. The last part ("shall report any perceived violations to the ArbCom. Violations shall be handled by an uninvolved Admin per terms the ArbCom will decide.") is unnecessary because any violations will be reported to WP:AE. However, I have a serious concern about such remedy because two sides have a full overlap of interest. Interaction bans were proven to be rather inefficient in the past. If this is implemented, perhaps it would be necessary to also issue a recommendation for John Carter not to interfere with Ignocrates in his significantly more narrow area of interest. My very best wishes (talk) 20:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by User:Ignocrates

Proposed principles

FAC and FAR processes

1) The integrity of the FAC evaluation and FAR review processes must be maintained.

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Editors should have full confidence in the standards of the FAC and FAR processes. Ignocrates (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Wikipedia is not a battleground

2) Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts or carry on ideological battles.

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Wikipedia should not be used as a forum to perpetuate old disputes. Ignocrates (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Wikipedia is not a game

3) Gaming the system means deliberately using Wikipedia policies and guidelines in bad faith to thwart the aims of Wikipedia. Gaming the system may represent an abuse of process, disruptive editing, or otherwise evading the spirit of community consensus.

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Wikipedia should not be disrupted to push an agenda as an end-run around community consensus, even if the editor perceives the end-goal to be a benefit to Wikipedia. Ignocrates (talk) 23:34, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed findings of fact

Premature filing of FAR

1) Premature filing of FAR cast doubt on the integrity of the FAC process.

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Premature filing of FAR by John Carter created confusion and implied the Gospel of the Ebionites FAC evaluation was flawed. link1, link2 Ignocrates (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Carrying on a long-standing grudge

2) Wikipedia was disrupted by propagating an old dispute to new articles.

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John Carter resumed an old dispute, which originated on the Ebionites article, on user talk pages and then migrated the dispute to the Gospel of the Ebionites and Gospel of the Hebrews articles. link1, link2, link3 Ignocrates (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Pre-planned dispute

3) A content dispute was deliberately initiated to enlist the support of a RMoS work group and the Arbitration Committee.

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John Carter initiated a dispute on the Gospel of the Ebionites article intended to garner support for new Religion MoS guidelines and discretionary sanctions in the topic area of early Christianity. link Ignocrates (talk) 23:42, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In all honestsy, the only thing this does is demonstrate how completely Ignocrates has at least in my eyes completely and absolutely crossed the line of basic sanity, particular as there is no real evidence presented to support this paranoic assertion. John Carter (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

FAR guidelines should be enforced

1) A mechanism of enforcement should be established to discourage frivolous or tendentious filings.

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Nikkimaria and Dana boomer should be allowed to apply sanctions as needed to maintain the integrity of the FAR process. John Carter should be admonished for abuse of process. Ignocrates (talk) 18:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If this is to be enacted, then I believe that there should also be provision established for the FA people to be able to indicate that the standard six month waiting period be voided in some cases, particularly if reasonable evidence which indicates that matters which were not presented in the original FAC, possibly by editors to seeking to game the system while others are away, is presented. There can be, and I think probably has, at some point, been attempts to sneak something through in such ways before, and we should not permit those who nominate articles to be able to game the system in such ways. John Carter (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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I agree that the FAR in question was suboptimal for a number of reasons, but what kind of sanctions are you suggesting? Standard discretionary sanctions are quite broad and would definitely be overkill in all but the most extreme of situations wrt FAR; the actual "sanction" which was used in this case, the removal of personal commentary, doesn't explicitly fall under discretionary sanctions at all, as I understand them. I'm also a bit leery of the "no early FAR ever" argument; while its merits in this particular case are arguable, there are certain circumstances under which an early FAR would in fact be appropriate. Finally, if something to this effect is to be passed, there needs to be clarity on what exactly it covers: frivolous filings only, or all "FAR guidelines" (which include several other points that might potentially merit enforcement)? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria, I think 90% of the time a word of caution or at most an admonition will suffice. It all comes down to a question of intent. People make mistakes, and all that should be required is an explanation in that case. However, when someone has an axe to grind, that is disruptive, and FAR shouldn't be used as a forum to grind it. That's what I meant - the point is to discourage the deliberate misuse the FAR process to gain leverage in a content dispute or perpetuate an old grudge. Ignocrates (talk) 20:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mutual interaction ban

2) The involved parties shall refrain from communicating with each other or commenting upon each other directly or indirectly on any page of English Wikipedia.

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John Carter & Ignocrates should be banned from communicating or making comments about each other directly or indirectly on all pages, including attack pages in user space, for an indefinite period. A topic ban of John Carter on the subcategory of Jewish-Christian articles should be considered, perhaps as a sanction to be imposed later, if the interaction ban alone is deemed insufficient. Ignocrates (talk) 21:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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At the first glance, this looks to me as two people involved in prolonged bickering, rather than "personal attacks". But since this case landed in Arbcom, Arbs probably have no other choice, but to issue you I-ban. Never ever bring your disputes to Arbcom. My very best wishes (talk) 22:44, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John Carter admonished

3) John Carter shall be admonished for disrupting Wikipedia to garner support for discretionary sanctions.

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Discretionary sanctions are not required in the topic area of early Christianity based on a two-person dispute. Creating a dispute to bring to ArbCom because the Community would not support new RMoS guidelines or sanctions in the past is gaming the system. Ignocrates (talk) 23:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And I regret to say that workshop pages are at best dubiously places for parties to make statements which both make extremely dubious, and at least borderline paranoic, rushes to judgment about the motivations of others, a habit the above editor has regularly displayeD. Ignocrates, you have several times made irrational, unsupportable statements in which you make such irrational jumps to conclusions, at least once, in a matter submitted as evidence, regarding a matter which was itself more or less clearly discounted by the evidence. The regular display of such apparently blind acceptance of any conspiracy theory you can quickly create for little if no reason than for the purpose of impugning others, can I believe do nothing but raise very serious questions whether you are capable of rational discussion, which I believe raises very serious questions whether you can reasonably be trusted to edit even talk pages responsibly, and, by extension, whether a site ban might not be the best and only alternative to prevent further irrational unfounded jumps to conclusions on your part. John Carter (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed enforcement

Discretionary sanctions

1) Ability to impose discretionary sanctions should be granted to maintain control of the FAR process.

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Nikkimaria and Dana boomer should be granted the ability to impose discretionary sanctions as needed. Ignocrates (talk) 18:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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ArbCom enforcement

2) Enforcement of mutual interaction ban and possible topic ban

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Ban violations shall be reported by email to ArbCom with sanctions to be determined by ArbCom Enforcement. Ignocrates (talk) 22:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by John Carter

Proposed principles

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Proposed findings of fact

Ignocrates cannot consistently abide by guidelines and policy

1) Ignocrates has indicated that he is at best insufficiently familiar with a number of policies and guidelines, as can be seen in evidence. This includes accurately and fairly representing the sources. This failure to make a reasonable effort to understand and adhere to guidelines and policies should very much be taken into account, particularly in those instances where he indicates that his judgment of material should be given greater attention than those of others.

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Proposed remedies

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Mandated editor review of Ignocrates

1) Ignocrates be subject to mandated editor review in the broad topic area of early Christianity, broadly construed, for an indefinite period. This would include the prohibition of keeping any pages in user space regarding that topic area.

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Ignocrates can be a competent editor in producing material from sources. However, his demonstrable lack of understanding of basic policies and guidelines, his unwillingness to make changes in accord with guidelines and policies, and the fact of his having a fairly well documented bias regarding this topic, which is just about the only one he has ever shown any interest in, under either name, give me reason to believe that his edits regarding this topic would best be made under the review of independent administrators. Doing so would remove the likelihood of his engaging in the tendentious editing and refusal to directly address concerns raised by others which he has recently displayed, and also probably help him get over the rather obvious arrogance he rather regularly displays in his attempts to insult and minimalize the impact of the sometimes documentable instances of prejudicial editing which he has recently displayed. John Carter (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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ArbCom request preparation of guidelines regarding religion

2) The Arbitration Committee will request that experienced editors who have not been particularly strongly involved in content relating to religion will draft preliminary guidelines for religious content to be submitted to the community for review.

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There are, according to one source, about 20,000 different Christian denominations extant, and an unknown number of other religious groups. Considering that in many cases these religious groups will hold as central points matters of philosophy or belief which might be well out of step with the independent academic community, whatever it might be, both individually and collectively, and any number of other concerns particularly regarding matters relating to FRINGE and WEIGHT, I think there is more than sufficient reason to have discussion on how to treat these matters being given serious consideration. John Carter (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Discretionary sanctions or similar on early Christianity

3) ArbCom will place content related to the topic of early Christianity, broadly construed, under discretionary sanctions or under some form of specific oversight which would allow ArbCom to impose discretionary sanctions on specific content related to early Christianity through arbitration amendment.

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There have been several subtopics of early Christianity in recent years which have been plagued by problematic editors and in some cases disputes regarding the amount of weight to give certain recent or academically fringe ideas, including some relating to smaller and/or non-notable or barely notable groups. These discussions often become problematic, particularly if the editors involved include some who are associated with groups that hold such beliefs. Making it possible to impose such sanctions comparatively early in such discussions might help reduce the length and amount of acrimony generated regarding such topics. John Carter (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Liz below, I would agree that any topic can become one which involves intractable disputes. However, I also think that the topic of religion, by and large, generally involves editors who have some degree of alliance or affiliation with one belief or another, which tends to make them even less likely to engage in rational discussion. Also, there have been I think at least two attempts to get together MOS for religion, which have failed for various reasons. ArbCom has in the past requested an effort made to develop guidelines in some topics, and, honestly, I think that input from senior editors who have not regularly edited religious content, and as a result haven't been seen by editors who have conflicting beliefs as "biased," but have with luck some history of developing guidelines, possibly with the input of some religious editors, would be among the kinds of proposals to present to the community which would not receive the sometimes knee-jerk reaction of "bias" form certain editors. And, yeah, I think it worth noting that the drafts would be submitted to the community as a working proposal still needing further input and review, not one presented to the community as some sort of final draft. John Carter (talk) 00:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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If you review cases that have been brought to ARBCOM, you can find equally intense disputes over politics, sexual identity, race, intelligence, ethnicity, nationalism, tree shaping, infoboxes and the Monty Hall Problem, not only religion. Any subject can become contentious.

If Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion wants to draft advisory guidelines for writing articles about religion, that would be useful. But FRINGE is usually a label applied to those with whom we disagree. And I don't understand why the proposed guidelines would be drafted by editors who haven't written much about religion or why ARBCOM would want to get involved in setting up this kind of panel. ARBCOM typically does not get involved in debates about content or making guidelines about how Editors should edit. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:26, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think, this is unreasonable because the conflict appear to be only between two editors. I do not see any wider and clearly demonstrated problems in this area. This can be handled either by issuing topic ban(s) or/and an interaction ban. My personal suggestion for the project would be to review and gradually nullify all areas of discretionary sanctions that are currently unproblematic, as can be easily checked from history of WP:AE sanctions. My very best wishes (talk) 21:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems strange to me that "discretionary sanctions" are being proposed due to disagreements in the really quite obscure area of fragments of early Jewish-Christian gospels and early Christian movements that wanted to keep Jewish roots and Jewish custom and law. The main Jesus articles were recently disrupted by a user who started posting all over the place that the Bible states that Jesus was a flying spaghetti monster zombie and we had to go to AN/I to beg admins to do something about it, and even then it was not until he blanked the entire Jesus page and filled it with crude obscenities that anything was done. This was only shortly after there was a similar drama with an editor who repetitively argued for months and months that the classical historian Michael Grant could not be used as a source for the statement that such a person as Jesus existed because he wrote "popular books" and only knew about Roman coins, and Bart Ehrman could not be used either because he went to Bible college. We could use more help from admins with these sort of problems,which occur quite regularly, but I do not think that discretionary sanctions are the answer.Smeat75 (talk) 04:52, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Smeat75, while these cases sound like a pain to deal with, they sound like issues of vandalism and reliable sources and there are noticeboards and places where these problems can be dealt with. It afflicts many topics on Wikipedia, I don't setting up a panel to devise guidelines for religious subjects to be any solution. If anything, WikiProject Christianity and WikiProject Religion have to mobilize and address problems when they are found. Content guidelines is an extra filter which means another level of bureaucracy to deal with the filter and I'm not sure whether a) this is necessary and b) there are competent Editors who have the time to devote to this project.

As Smeat75 says, the topic under question is a small area of early Christianity and Ancient Religions study. I am doubtful about coming up with a system-wide solution to what I perceive to be a limited dispute, between two Editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liz (talk • contribs) 02:08, 6 October 2013 (UTC)‎[reply]

Preparation of guidelines regarding articles under discretionary sanctions

4) ArbCom will request of the community development of guidelines specifically for developing content under discretionary sanctions.

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There are a number of articles and topics already under discretionary sanctions. Unfortunately, given the nature of discretionary sanctions, the fact of the discretionary sanctions themselves might make several editors more than a bit hesitant to propose required changes. I think it might be a good idea to perhaps prepare a page of rough guidelines which can be linked to on the talk page template regarding discretionary sanctions for how to least problematically develop such content. John Carter (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by User:Smeat75

Proposed principles

Administrators and civility

1) "Administrators are trusted members of the community, and expected to lead by example and behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others." From an Arbcom final decision.[1]

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John Carter has a history of making personal attacks

1) John Carter, an administrator, has a history of stating on talk pages that editors he is in disagreement with are irrational, dishonest, need to seek outside help,etc.

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John Carter should be admonished to remain civil

1) John Carter should be admonished to maintain civil and polite discussions even with editors with whom he is in disagreement.

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Analysis of evidence

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General discussion

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 ::John Carter initiated a dispute on the [[Gospel of the Ebionites]] article intended to garner support for new Religion MoS guidelines and discretionary sanctions in the topic area of early Christianity. [[WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ebionites 3/Evidence#Gaming Wikipedia by initiating a pre-planned edit conflict to support new Religion MoS guidelines and discretionary sanctions by ArbCom|link]] [[User:Ignocrates|Ignocrates]] ([[User talk:Ignocrates|talk]]) 23:42, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
+:::In all honestsy, the only thing this does is demonstrate how completely Ignocrates has at least in my eyes completely and absolutely crossed the line of basic sanity, particular as there is no real evidence presented to support this paranoic assertion. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 15:11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
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