Talk:Terrorist Surveillance Program

This page used to redirect to an article specifically discussing the controversy regarding this program. According to arguments on that article's talk page, the controversy and the program itself are two different entities. Therefore, if logically follows that this article should be specifically about the program itself, not simply a redirect to the controversy article. I have created a stub of basic information about the program and, for the sake of NPOV, included a mention of the "controversy" with a wikilink to the NSA warrantless surveillance controversy page were that part of the issue can be handled.--WilliamThweatt 19:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nescio

I have three issues with your attempted edits. All fall under either the category of interjecting your POV into the article or addressing issues outside of the scope of this article. I will address them one-by-one. I am familiar with your style of argumentation from other pages so, please, in anwering these issues please refrain from ad hominem, red herring and non sequitor fallacies and answer the issues logically or I will continue to revert your attempts to hijack this article.

1) Inserting "alledgedly" is POV. This is the stated goal of the program. Do we say that "welfare" is alledgedly for underprivledged folks or "equal opportunity programs" are alledgedly targeted at minorities. The reader can make up their own mind as to whether they believe the administration's stated intent.

• How do we know the program is intended for terrorist only? Why are there so many organisations and lawyers targetted? Nomen Nescio 14:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

2) You continue to attempt to insert into the second paragraph that under FISA, obtaining warrants for signals intelligence would be obligatory. That is your POV. That has not yet been legally decided for the current circumstances (in fact it is the essence of the debate).

• Everybody agrees, even the Bush administration. Why else would they use the argument of inherent war powers and allegded authorization by Congress, if not to address the mandatory warrants? The argument is that the administration claims the constitution and the allegded authorization by Congress trumps FISA, not that FISA does not oblige them to get warrants. Nomen Nescio 14:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

3) The scope of this article, as the title implies, is the known facts of the NSA's Terrorist Surveillance Program, not the opinions of the American Bar Association, the Congressional Research Service, David Kris, Elizabeth Holtzman, John Dean, Jennifer van Bergen, etc. There are as many opinions as there are people. This is an encyclopeadic article, not a newspaper, editorial column or blog. In addition there is a specific article (of which you're well aware) on WP that specifically addresses the "controversy" and it is mentioned and even wiki-linked in this article. We are not going to rehash that here. As it stands now the article is sufficiently NPOV. It does not, as you say, assert legality. It acknowledges the debate and that legality is in question.--WilliamThweatt 06:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

• Evidently the opinion of the Bush administration is allowed, but other views not. Why? Furthermore, if the ABA, former FISA judges, et cetera make certain observations I hardly think it is appropriate to call it merely opinion. Nomen Nescio 14:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Could you retract your invalid accusation? I do not use logical fallacies, I do admit many editors refuse to substantiate their claims and I observe that making assertions without substantiating them is not helping wikipedia. Thank you for the apology. Nomen Nescio 14:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Nescio, I appreciate and respect your willingness to debate this instead of just reverting. Your points deserve a speedy response, however I am already late for church as it is. I will respond later this afternoon.--WilliamThweatt 16:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is save to say that:

• FISA prohibits surveillance without a warrant
• The administration asserts that based on the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) and the Constitution (unitary executive) the President in the war on terrror is not bound by FISA.
• The controversy is about the second point, did the President have legal authority to bypass FISA?

You might be interested in this, and the references to the edit I made.[1] Nomen Nescio 00:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been way to busy to attend to this recently so in respect for you contributions, I'll leave them alone until I have time to provide a rebuttal. However, I have done a little cleanup, formatting and wikilinking. I'm not sure who included the reference to Watergate, but I have removed it on the basis of relevance. It was completely domestic, used to spy on Democrats for the purpose of winning an election, and egregiously illegal, so, hence, had nothing to do with FISA, war-time security, etc. I also object to using sites such as "counterpunch.org" for sources. This site is so completely left-wing partisan so as to be of no use. I'm sure you would object if I started citing Sean Hanity, et al. (which, by the way, I would never do).--WilliamThweatt 17:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed you removed some wording in the paragraph containing your references. I refuse to engage in an edit war so I will not revert, yet. I originally changed the wording because of your David Kris reference. The end of that paragraph needs to be reworded or the Kris reference needs to be removed. I have read the entire source you cited and to lump Kris's letter in with the others is misleading on many levels. Foremost is that Kris admits in his letter that he is still reviewing the "white paper" (Gonzales's justification of the surveillance) and he was, at the time of writing, not convinced that the administration was making it's case effectively. He is not advocating that the program is overtly illegal, he simply says that according to what he's read so far, it's his opinion that Gonzales's rationale may be shaky. The subject of his letter is not the legality of the program but the strength and nature of the administration's arguments. In other words, according to Kris, the program may be legal (not addressed in the letter) but the administration is doing a bad job of explaining how.

Also, (I am not as adamant about this one) apparently, somebody threw in Arlen Spector's name prsumably to indicate that there are some Republicans who question the surveillance program. This is also misleading as Mr. Spector has constantly been at odds with the Bush administration. Arlen Spector is not representative of Republicans in general. He is a very moderate Republican (socially a Liberal), he is a former Democrat, and he is barely hanging on to his seat in an important, evenly divided, swing state. A strong case can be made that he is objecting for purely political reasons having nothing to do with the legality of the issues involved. If we're going to continue to drop his name here, I think it is legitimate to include that he is a "moderate, former Democrat", in this context it is neither POV nor inaccurate.

Made it into Kris and the FISA judges doubt ..... Hope this is better.

As to Arlen Specter, it is difficult. Explicitly mentioning that he is a former Democrat sounds like an ad hominem attack. Or at least it sounds like trying to introduce doubt as to his credibility. Maybe you have a suggestion that does not make it look as if he is untrustworthy. Nomen Nescio 06:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Bipartisanship

My reading and hearing of the news on this issue is that there are members of both parties, not just the Democratic party, that question the Act - probably the fact that there is Republican criticism as well as Democratic should be mentioned. --Dumarest 11:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Dumarest, I agree there are a few Republicans who publicly question the act (though are openly against any censure attempts). In my view, this is just election-year politics by Republicans in moderate districts where open support of the program might be seen as a liability. However, unlike some editors here (see above argument, for example), I do not attempt to shade the article or insert my personal views. I think the use of "mainly" in the sentence "...mainly sponsored by Democrats..." implies that that there are some detractors who aren't Democrats (ie Republicans). However, if you wish to make it more overt, by all means, be bold and do so but please, if I can offer a bit of respectful (albeit unsollicited) advice, be careful of your wording to keep it NPOV, from either side.--WilliamThweatt 15:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

This article does indeed need expanding, that's why I labled it as a stub and placed the Expand Template at the top of this page. However I am against any attempt to insert any spin or POV (from either side) or any attempt to rehash the material presented on the "controversy" page.--WilliamThweatt 15:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

If so, can we delete the assertion the program is legal? Or at least, insert a rebuttal to guarantee your desired NPOV? Nomen Nescio 20:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

You can't prove its not, innocent till proven guilty. Things arent wrong till they are proven as such. You want to counter balance then add legal opinions in favor of it being illegal. --zero faults talk 22:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

AfD or Redirect?

This article probably shouldn't exist. It adds virtually nothing that isn't already in NSA Wiretapping, which has far more information and debate on the talk page. If no one has any objections, I'd like to change it to redirect to the NSA wiretapping controversy page, or delete it all together.Dkatten 19:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I just reread this page as for its justification (sorry!). I'm really not buying it though. Whatever was discussed in the talk pages of the controversy page, it is clear that that page does an ample job of discussing the program - far better than this page. Dkatten 19:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Then the details of the program need to be merged here. Per that article's title, it is restricted to a discussion of the "controversy". The program itself is noteworthy not only because of the controversy, but also by virtue of being a Government program and part of the Global War on Terror.--WilliamThweatt 20:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, that the program in reality does exist separate and apart from the controversy. However, there is incredibly little known about the program as it stands. For instance, is this article supposed to document all that is known about signals intelligence performed in the name of the War on Terror? If so, that's an incredibly broad topic about which virtually nothing is known. The NSA wiretapping issue at best contributes only a small part of the intelligence collected on suspected terrorists and their activities.

Also, I'd like to point out that one of the major points of the controversy is that there is no check or balance to ensure that the intelligence gathered IS on terrorists. Critics (admittedly myself included) argue that all we know for sure is that there is a program to collect surveillance on people in the US. The claim that this surveillance is limited to terrorists has not been proven, and is at this stage a claim of the administration. In other words, only two of the three words in the article title are established facts.

I can see keeping this article on the basis that there are different efforts underway to monitor the various communications of suspected and known terrorists. For instance, we know that there is military surveillance in the field, and I suspect that there are wiretaps on the phones of knowns and suspected terrorists who are operating overseas. We know that if there is someone in the US who is a suspected terrorist, they too likely have been wiretapped. But again, these are assumptions. The program that this page ostensibly refers to is a specific one in which a suspected terrorist (with a wiretapped line) calls someone in the US and then a wiretap begins on that person when they make overseas calls (at least is my understanding. We know so little about the program I could be wrong.) But I'm not sure how valuable an article on incredibly vague intelligence gathering procedures is. Dkatten 23:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Although some of the arguments in favour of this article are reasonable, we already established that the name is a misnomer. I provided several articles showing that innocent people are subject of this program, and not only terrorist. Or should I say that it mainly targets innocent people? Here is another example of why I have problems with the name:

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.[2]

It would be difficult to maintain these were all terrorists, or people talking to terrorists. Nomen Nescio 08:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Is the New Deal a misnomer? Is Great Society?

It doesn't matter whether or not you consider it to be, because the federal government has the ability to name its programs as it wishes.--RWR8189 08:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Since millions of innocent people are subject to the program, and not one example of terrorists being monitored is available, it is hard to understand how this is not a misnomer. Nomen Nescio 10:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Nescio, this will most likely be my last comment on this topic. As a result of independent research I've been conducting and, more immediately, the USA Today article this morning, I have become too biased against the NSA's efforts at Sig Intel to be able to edit any article on this topic in a sufficiently NPOV manner. That having been said, please indulge me a Swan Song argument. I would like to say that, in regards to the name, the comparisons to the New Deal and the Great Society are accurate. Many would argue that the "New Deal" was neither "new" nor a "deal". Likewise, many have argued that the "Great Society" wasn't so "Great". The program names may indeed have been "misnomers" as you say, but they were the names nonetheless. My suggestion is to place that in the first line of the article something like this:

• The Bush administration's NSA Terrorist Surveillance Program, a name considered by most to be a misnomer,...(citations here).

That is, after all, what you do best, isn't it? I think this will better serve your agenda anyway by pointing out the irony of the administration's attempted obfuscation in the first line.--WilliamThweatt 16:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why observing this is a misnomer is invalid. As to your suggested intro, I do not want to make such a claim. A caveat showing it is a term used by the administration, and nobody really knows whether it is real, or in response to the controversy, should suffice. You feel I have an agenda, while all I try to do is provide the information as accurate as possible. I do no claim to be 100% unbiased, but I surely am not rewriting history by including nuance. Nomen Nescio 07:20, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is there a discussion of the "controversy" on this page when there is an entire article about it? I think the "controversy" section of this page should be deleted. Kgwo1972 15:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

While the program is noteworty apart from the controversy, the controversy is a major issue when discussing the program. Following WP convention, there is a brief mention of the controversy with a link to the main page where that subject is discussed in detail--WilliamThweatt 16:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is not neutral from the get-go. The title fatally indicates a point of view. A much more thorough, nuanced, and nonbiased discussion of the program (not just the controversy) is already here: NSA warrantless surveillance controversy. This article should simply be a redirect to that page. Kgwo1972 18:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the "discussion" at the page you mention is far from nonbiased. Secondly, read through that page's talk section. It was decided there that that page was to be confined, per the title, to the "controversy". The details and description of the government's Terrorist Surveillance Program belong in a separate article.--WilliamThweatt 20:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

As I remember it, this "decision" was not the result of consensus. -- Nomen Nescio 07:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

No one opposed it. Metarhyme 17:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The description on the other page is "peer-reviewed" and the result of a consensus. This page simply states what you believe the program is. After thinking about this issue further, the problem is, as the other page states: "The complete details of this authorization are still not fully known." In fact, we just learned additional details this morning. At the very least, the description should begin with this FACT. I will try my hand at editing this article now. Kgwo1972 15:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The other page is multi-biased enough not to merit the NPOV contested tag. Instead of attacking Thweatt here, an editor might consider riffle-shuffling the two Legal analysis bits in Talk there. The chore would be to poop out an improved section that no one could claim wasn't neutral. Metarhyme 17:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. —Nightstallion (?) 08:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Title is not only NPOV, but factually incorrect

The title itself is massively NPOV, as the phrase was designed by the administration as pro-administration damage-control propaganda ONLY AFTER the program was revealed.

Furthermore, the phrase is FACTUALLY INCORRECT - it has been widely reported that international calls to certain nations were monitored as a matter of course, and that almost all of the calls that were investigated by the FBI turned out to be wild goose chases, including a call that had included the word "bombed" that turned out to be a suburban soccer mom describing her son's soccer team as having "bombed" in their game.

The title therefore factually contradicts the reality of the program, in a way that was designed by one side in a political debate to serve its own political interests. To repeat this title for the program is therefore to perpetuate factual error for political advocacy. Needless to say this has absolutely no place in an encyclopedia. Merge. - Reaverdrop 04:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a propaganda term. it's an encyclopedia entry for a propaganda term. for the sake of disclosure, i'm liberal, and it was reportd in the news yesterday that this administration had spent the most ever on secret programs since the cold war. terrorism? maybe. but then maybe we shouldn't have invaded iraq. because your frickin advisors said it would increase terrorism. and it did. surprise, surprise. but we have an encyclopedia article for the alleged links between saddam hussein and al-qaeda, which is as propaganda if not more so than "terrorist surveillence program", but you know what?: it's interesting, and so is this. mind you, there's a propensity to make it a dictionary definition: "just what exactly is a 'terrorist surveillance program'?" and in many respects, this goes outside the bounds of that definition - that's for wikitionary. we have articles for other propaganda terms,as we should, just keep their content factual, informative, and NPOV. Keep. Kevin Baas^talk 05:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no dispute with having an article along the lines of "Terrorist surveillance program: the propaganda term used by the Bush administration to refer to its warrantless domestic surveillance program..." But there's not enough subject matter for such an entry outside of the current entry.

Besides which, the article as it stands now does not just refer to propaganda: it is propaganda. It could not have been any more dripping with one-sided pro-Bush slant than if Al Gonzales had personally logged in to Wikipedia and written it. The whole thing needs a lobotomy-size rewrite. - Reaverdrop 05:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Should we qualify the article on the New Deal as New Deal: Propaganda term used by FDR to sell his socialistic reforms to the public?? Of course not.

The administration has the right to name its own programs, whether or not you agree or disagree with their choice of name.

I'm not sure what exactly we're voting on, but Keep--RWR8189 06:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Not a particularly relevant comparison, because "New Deal" is a pretty neutral term. On the other hand, we don't have an entry for "Anti-fascist protection barrier", because that was also a highly non-neutral and inaccurate propaganda term, which one couldn't use without implicitly endorsing a particular administration's political spin. Instead we have an article under the neutral term that everyone could use, the "Berlin Wall". So too should this article be called by a neutral, factual term anyone can use regardless of their interpretation of it. "NSA warrantless domestic surveillance program" is, word for word, pure, neutral fact; there's not a word of it that George Bush hasn't plainly characterized as accurate. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 05:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Or how about simply, "NSA warrantless surveillance program", to parallel the name of the "NSA warrantless surveillance controversy" article from which it sprang. Nice and neat. Proposal posted at top. See Wikipedia:Requested_moves#25_May_2006. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 05:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• There are numerous reasons why the article title should remain as it is.

Lets first look at Google, 31,800 hits for "NSA warrantless surveillance program" but 314,000 hits for "terrorist surveillance program".

Then we can look at the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guidelines for advice.

Criterion	Terrorist surveillance program	NSA warrantless surveillance program
1. Most commonly used name in English	1 (as shown by Google)	0
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	1 (clearly the official name chosen for the program by the federal government)	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	1 (the federal government self-identifies with this name)	0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

If you think there is a problem with the name fo the program, your problem is with the federal government, not anyone here. You do not have the right to change the official name of a government program because you disagree with it.--RWR8189 06:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A selffulfilling prophecy, that much is certain. Second, why do we use Holocaust, or Shoah, when the OFFICIAL term coined by the German government was Endlösung? Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 06:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Holocaust is by far the most commonly used term in English. The Nazi German government is defunct, so they cannot actively dispute this. Holocaust meets all the standards for the naming conventions, "NSA warrantless surveillance program" doesn't.--RWR8189 06:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Your argument was that this is the official name the government gave. By that reasoning Holocaust should not be used, it surely was not the official name. Be consistent. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 06:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't tell me what my argument is. There are innumerable reasons why the article's name should stay in its current state. Chief among them is the fact that it is the most commonly used name in English, it is the official government name of the program, and the federal government currently identifies the program with this name.--RWR8189 06:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You still use the administration as argument. And it is widely used since that is what propaganda does. However, feel free to keep this name, as long as a disclaimer mentions it is a term advanced by the Bush administration in reaction to the controversy,[3][4][5] and it is made clear that the name is inherently a misnomer. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 08:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Allegedly

Changed the claim that terrorists are targeted into "allegedly." When the Rationales .... article needs to include allegedly when stating the WMD have not been found, we should be consistent and award this article with the same nuance. Nomen Nescio 10:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Terrorist surveillance program → NSA warrantless surveillance program … Rationale: This started as a branch from NSA warrantless surveillance controversy, which has become too long, and with the rationale that the program itself and the controversy surrounding it are a logical way to divide the subject matter. However, the branch-off article was created under its current title. Since its creation, many users have argued that the name of the new article is inherently biased POV, and even inaccurate; and that it should be changed to a NPOV title. Proposed by User:Reaverdrop

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as per WP:NPOV ~ trialsanderrors 07:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I'll move my previous comment here as well. RWR8189 07:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC) moved the concomittent comment to discussion were it belongs-- Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support - just to make sure my vote is counted, I'll mention my support here though I've briefly stated my reasons in the proposal. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 10:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral, the name is currently advocated by the Bush administration, so it would appear that the term used. However, unless the article, under its current name, makes clear the term is an unverifiable misnomer and possibly propaganda in response to the negative reactions following its disclosure, I have to agree with the idea that this title is inappropriate. Further, I still cannot help but feel this is a fork of the controversy article. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• as hard core as voting neutral is, I Oppose the move to "WSP". "terrorist" is surely problematic. "Known Al Qaida affiliates are being surveilled here, right? I'd support a move to Known Al Qaida affiliates surveillance program, but that in all seriousness would prob not be a smart "move" for any number of reasons. WalkUnseen 04:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Not in the last place the fact that even if terrorists are targetted, we know that the vast majority of subjects is innocent and has no ties to terrorism. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 08:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support for the sake of consistency. alt. might be "domestic spying program""NSA electronic survellience program". Kevin Baas^talk 17:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose but would support move to something like NSA electronic surveillance program as suggested by Kevin Baas above. AjaxSmack 08:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

As for "NSA electronic surveillance program", I think that would be an unnecessary distinction, since nobody is disputing the fact that the surveillance program is being done without warrants, with the administration arguing it is authorized to surveill without warrants; and this name would be too diffuse to be descriptive, since everything the NSA has ever done has been an "electronic surveillance program" - what sets this program apart is that it is being done domestically without warrants. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 16:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support, for consistency. --Panairjdde 13:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

To respond to some of the discussion above, basically, I think the plain fact of the inaccuracy of the title "terrorist surveillance program" makes factors such as a Google hitcount irrelevant. It's been widely, reliably reported that the overwhelming majority of people affected by the domestic surveillance program have been ordinary Americans, not terrorists. The administration is free to argue that it only intends to target terrorists and that the wiretaps on ordinary Americans have been incidental to their intended focus, and to come up with a marketing slogan for the program that reflects that argument, but that is for the body of the article, not for its title. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 10:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the "official" name could also be The NSA Program to Detect and Prevent Terrorist Attacks as per DoJ. The NSA search page did not come up with anything on either of the terms, so this seems to put some doubt on the "official" and "self-decribed" claims. As about official vs. common names, compare 9/11 Commission~ trialsanderrors 18:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Copied this discussion from survey above:

There are numerous reasons why the article title should remain as it is.

Lets first look at Google, 31,800 hits for "NSA warrantless surveillance program" but 314,000 hits for "terrorist surveillance program".

Then we can look at the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guidelines for advice.

Criterion	Terrorist surveillance program	NSA warrantless surveillance program
1. Most commonly used name in English	1 (as shown by Google)	0
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	1 (clearly the official name chosen for the program by the federal government)	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	1 (the federal government self-identifies with this name)	0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

If you think there is a problem with the name fo the program, your problem is with the federal government, not anyone here. You do not have the right to change the official name of a government program because you disagree with it.--RWR8189 07:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC) End of comment.

In response to Lets first look at Google, 31,800 hits for "NSA warrantless surveillance program" but 314,000 hits for "terrorist surveillance program".Google gets 628.00 hits on "domestic spying program."[6] By the logic advanced it is evident the latter is more widely used and this article should be renamed as such. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It's easy to get complete different results by just slightly changing the Google search term. The problem with anything that doesn't include NSA in the title is that it's ambiguous and recentist. Unless we learn the actual name of the program from the NSA itself, which is more likely something like "Operation Knock Knock" than "Terrorist Surveillance Program". ~ trialsanderrors 18:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

anyone want a free news report section?

On the NSA controversy talk page, I've suggested moving the "News reports" section to this article. What do you guys think? Kevin Baas^talk 18:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems right to me. Kgwo1972 20:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 11:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

New proposed move to new alternative that emerged from first proposed move

I propose we move Terrorist surveillance program → NSA electronic surveillance program …

Rationale: We recently did a requested move on this page to "NSA warrantless surveillance program", which ended in "no consensus."

However, the result was three votes for the proposed move (reaverdrop, kevin baas, Panairjdde), only a single vote for outright opposition to the move (rwr8189), and three votes that were neutral or opposed but that also indicated dissatisfaction with the current name and discussed a third alternative, originally proposed by User:Kevin_baas, which is this one (nomen nescio - neutral, "this title is inappropriate"; walkunseen (user:kzzl) - "Oppose the move to "WSP" but ""terrorist" is surely problematic", support for move to other name; AjaxSmack - would support a different name).

Taking that into account, the voting from the last proposed move would indicate a six to one preference for this newly proposed name. So here is the new alternative for a vote. I think this third alternative should not present any NPOV issues for anyone who felt that such were a problem with either the current name or the formerly proposed one. I'll cast the first vote:

• Support - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 08:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support but still would prefer the warrantless version as noted in my vote above (not counted by Reaverdrop). Warrantless is still the distinguishing feature that is undisputed by all parties. ~ trialsanderrors 09:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I also think "warrantless" would be NPOV and much more descriptive, since by definition everything the NSA does is "electronic surveillance", and no one on any side of the controversy disputes that the program is "warrantless". But I hoped this alternative would go over better with several people who still expressed a preference above for a different alternative. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 00:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence to show the NSA needed a warrant. If congress and the Supreme Court have no ruled then we as wiki editors should not tag it as such. Putting warrantless in the title while the debate is going on about if it needed one, is bias. Its also yet to be proven if these machines actually did log domestic calls that they could not normally have access to. Its just been accused of doing that since its a gateway, but not all gateways log information, some just allow it pass through. Considering much of the information is not known factually and just assumed or eluded to, we should not place warrantless or domestic in any title. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose For the same reasons I opposed the previous name change.--RWR8189 09:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support The new suggestion seems to be the better name, it describes the system in a non-biased way. --Norwaystudent 11:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - In editing Wikipedia (Note: I confess I'm still somewhat new here) we should try to put politics aside. That's generally extremely difficult, of course.... But, anyway, when I put my feelings about Bush aside as best as possible, my thinking is as follows: if the official name of the program is "The Terrorist Surveillance Program" (what's with the lack of uppercase letters, by the way?), that's what the article about the program itself should be called, seems to me. If Bush changes the name of the program again, then the title of the article should also change. Think about it. If someone wanted to get information about this program in a paper encyclopedia, what would he (s/he) do? He'd figure out what the official name of the program is, and expect to be able to look it up under that name. Having the article under any other name makes Wikipedia into a joke. Having this article the way it currently is (but made less biased), and having a separate article about the controversy seems like the best solution. It should be pointed in both articles when and how the name was changed, along with, in the "controversy" article, some of the suspected reasons for the change. BrianinStockholm 14:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  That's what redirects are for. And to be a mouthpiece for the Bush Administration would turn wikipedia into FOX News, which would be a joke if it was funny. Kevin Baas^talk 21:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC) See WP:NOT: Wikipedia is not a soapbox. I doesn't matter who's propaganda name it is, we can't advocate it. Wikipedia has a non-negotiable policy of WP:NPOV, and the neutral POV is the one of non-advocacy. Kevin Baas^talk 21:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  I'll second Kevin Baas here - the present title will be kept, just as a redirect page to the new title, so the move will not pose any new difficulty for people looking for an article on the topic, while it will present the article without endorsing a particular point of view in the title. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 06:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly support. much more objective than the current title. Kevin Baas^talk 15:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose If the program is named Terrorist Surveillance Program, then that is the name. You cannot change the names of programs simply because we feel they are POV, which unless you believe the NSA is just spying on random people for fun, the goal of the program is also the same. Its almost like renaming the article on Cold War because someone from Korea finds it offensive since there was fighting in their country. Or renaming COINTELPRO because its doesn't explain enough and should be called "Spying on Black Panthers." An encyclopedia should call an article about a program, by the name of the program. --zero faults talk 16:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  That's a false analogy that has already been discussed as such. Kevin Baas^talk 21:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

  You skipped the further explanation below, good job ignoring it. --zero faults talk 22:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support For the reasons stated above. Terrorist surveillance program is not the "official" name of the program, as opposed to many other programs that have been mentioned in this discussion. It is an ex post facto effort at spin. The proposed new name for the article is NPOV. Kgwo1972 15:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support, as I already explained, the current name is a misnomer and we have no way of knowing what the actual name is. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 16:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comments

As already discussed above there is no evidence that TSP is the official name used by the NSA. It's a term slapped on retroactively by the White House, and it's not the only one. Also WP does not recognize the official name as the sole naming possibility. See Operation Iraqi Freedom. ~ trialsanderrors 19:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Your example is false. OIF redirects to 2003 Invasion of Iraq because the article is split into 3 parts, beginning middle and end. When going to OIF you are redirected to the first part of the conflict, the initial invasion. I do however see your point, but its still closer to use the naming convention the government is using, then to make up one that users may not be familiar with. The goal is to make it accessible to readers I would assume. Creating names for things because we do not like them, will make it impossible for readers looking for it to actually find it. Especially since my assumption would be they would use names they are finding for it in press etc, not some string of words that could be seen as possibly be relating to that particular program. --zero faults talk 19:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That's an excellent example, Trials and errors. That's exactly what redirects are for. Also, WP:NOT requires that we do not advocate a position (Wikipedia is not a soapbox), and using an intentionally rhetorical name is advocating a position. I doesn't matter who's position it is, we can't advocate any position. Kevin Baas^talk 21:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You do realize his example is wrong as I pointed out? We arent advocating a position to call it the Cold War are we? Do we really have to get into that one again? From certain perspectives it was far from a cold war, yet those countries arent here complaining. Calling a program by its most popular name isnt advocating its making it easy for people visiting to find the article. What good are articles if noone can find them? --zero faults talk 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed my vote until someone can provide some authorative information that "Terrorist Surveillance Program" is the official name of the program, as opposed to (merely) a description some in the Bush Administration relatively recently decided to use. Has the Terrorist Surveillance Act of 2006 [7] been voted into law yet? If so, I'll return to my "oppose" position. Consider why we have the following two articles: Final Solution, and Holocaust. The name "Final Solution" is not NPOV, but official names are official names. Karl Rove deciding that all Republicans need to call the NSA program "Terrorist Surveillance Program" doesn't necessarily make it an official name (though it's tricky); but an act of Congress would. (Actually, if the Act has not yet been passed, then we have a very strong case that an article called "Terrorist Surveillance Program" should only refer to the program the passage of that act would establish. BrianinStockholm 16:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Currently listed as Introduced to House, so it has not been voted on yet. --zero faults ^|sockpuppet| 20:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

TSP is quite certainly not the official NSA name for it, since those names tend to be along the lines of Able Danger or ECHELON. Also, the White House only started using it in January, a month after the NYC disclosed the existence of the program. The act hasn't been passed and is unlikely to make it out of committee, but in any case even the passing of the act has no bearing on the name of the program since acts of law don't work retroactively. This is message discipline pure and simple. ~ trialsanderrors 18:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point - the fact alone that this program was carried out for over four years before the name "Terrorist surveillance program" was ever conceived, and that the name "Terrorist surveillance program" was still a number of weeks away from first coming into existence when the public learned about the program, is a powerful indicator that this is not the generic name for the program which should serve as the title of an encyclopedia article about it. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 06:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

First there is no fact to say that the name Bush called it by is not the real name, its just assumed. Second if it was not the original name, wouldn't you name it what it was called by the people running it, what its being reffered to in the media? People have to look for these articles and so its bes tto call it what it was. There currently is no proof that any of the servers were logging anything other then international calls, there is only the idea that the computers were gateways for all information, which are two very different things. Its also under debate if this program even needed a warrant, so calling it warrantless is misleading and POV. Its almost as if you went to every article and stated in the title what it lacked that it may not have needed in the first place. Considering we do not know what the real name is by looking at documents, we only have what the government calls it as its official name. People are advocating we make up names contrary to stated names if those names are not documented physically. This would create a mess for people looking for articles. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Warrantless is not POV since it's the characteristic of the program that is agreed upon by both sides. If the proposal were illegally warrantless I would oppose it. ~ trialsanderrors 18:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Its POV cause it eludes that one was needed, which is not a fact. It doesn't say NSA warrantless lacking congressional oversight non public surveilance program. There is no reason to state warrantless if its not known if one was needed. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 18:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The word warrantless does not imply that a warrant is needed. It doesn't say NSA warrantless lacking congressional oversight non public surveilance program. Exactly. Hence, NPOV. ~ trialsanderrors 02:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather than suggesting that warrants were needed, calling it the "warrantless" surveillance program would be an informative reference because it identifies its universally conceded warrantlessness as the crux of the debate over the program - essentially over the merits of the administration's argument that the president does not need to follow the statutory requirement for warrants for electronic surveillance. Nevertheless, these comments are neutral to the proposed move at hand, which no longer includes the "warrantless" description. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand the logic here. Since we do not know the official name, we should call it something totally different from what even the government calls it? This is even implying it has an official name, this is also implying what Bush called it, was not the official name. I dont even see why anyone would think its not, wouldnt he, being the one who authorized it, know the name? Has someone posted a source I missed stating while they did know the real name, they knew it wasnt what Bsh called it? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 18:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Even aside from any POV issues, the fact alone that the name "Terrorist surveillance program" did not even exist until more than four years into it, and a month after it had been publicly revealed, should definitively establish that it is not an official or authoritative name.

You do not know that the "Terrorist surveillance program" title did not exist. There is no proof that this title did not exist. Do you expect that after the program is revealed the government was to declassify everything it had done, the program name, director, supervisors, locations etc? Obivously not, so why is the delay even relevant, Bush cited the name when he could no longer deny its existence. He called it X, we are basically saying without proof, just on assumptions alone, that the name he called it by was made up just then. That itself is illogical since he has admitted that he and certain members of Congress reauthorize the program on a constant basis, wouldnt he then know the name?

Does anyone have any proof, actual proof, not assumptions that the name is not what Bush calls it? I haven't seen any yet, and so this is all assumptions that Bush made up a fake name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 11:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have rocksolid evidence that the name is what Bush calls it and that it was used before it surfaced as PR-response to the controversy? If opponents of the term are not allowed to use unverifiable information, why are you? Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 12:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What the creator of the program calls the program, is not unverifiable. That is on par with me walking into a new store and telling them its being renamed because they have no proof of it being called that before filing the papers of incorporation. The evidence you are asking for is top secret, the name has been revealed by Bush, as you have now admitted, its also been verified by a person with oversight, Alberto Gonzalez. Now I am stating this here, I will not respond to anymore of your arguements unless you post a fact, the burden of proof is on you. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Alberto does not oversee anything. He decides that oversight is unwarranted and should not take place since oversight creates a security risk. As to his analysis, you have seen this?

Civil liberties lawyers yesterday questioned the legal basis that Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales used Tuesday to justify the constitutionality of collecting domestic telephone records as part of the Bush administration's anti-terrorism program.[8] Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 21:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice quote, but still you have yet to prove the name is not what Bush and the government call it. Present proof you are right. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 22:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

First one has to establish which side the burden of proof lies, and when falsifiability is an issue, it is determinative. Kevin Baas^talk 00:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

All your terms make me laugh, you want the article renamed, you want to state Bush lied, the burden of proof is on you. You have a problem with that, consult Wikipedia Policy, not me. Start posting some facts below so everyone can see what evidence is listed for renaming, for stating its not the programs name. You know after the Senate pass the Surveillance Act the article will have to be renamed if you did suceed since that will effectively name any program of this type as Terrorist Surveillance Program. So even Congress uses the term reffering to these programs, proof please, not double talk and "logical fallacy" statements that present no proof. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 01:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Analogy with name change of "Terrorist" Information Awareness

There is a close analogy here to the former "Total Information Awareness" program, which was renamed as "Terrorist Information Awareness", only after a growing uproar over its Orwellian implications had prompted the Senate to require that it provide them with detailed information for overview. See Information Awareness Office. The TIA also had its name changed only long after it had been established. In both cases, "Terrorist" was tacked on to the name of the program only after the rise of public uproar. This is powerful evidence that the renaming was purely motivated by partisan public relations concerns, and is therefore inherently a biased POV. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/ub/w:s/w:l) 04:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• I still do not understand the problem with naming it NSA warrantless blah blah, and in the article mention the term advocated by Bushco. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I have to disagree, we knew the name of the first program, however there is no proof stating the programs name is not what Bush calls it. Some editors are merely assuming he made up the name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 11:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Since there is no evidence to support either interpretation, the best thing to do is to refrain from stating as a fact what evidently is opinion. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
      • You are stating opinion, the fact is the government refers to the program as "terrorist surveillance program" as shown in the articles own sources. YOu are stating an assumption that the name was not the original name. In doing so you are not presenting any facts to support your point, just assumptions that the lack of anything other then the people who have reviewed and created the program call it that. Well lack of evidence for secret programs is not proof of everything contrary to it. The fact is Alberto Gonzalez has even called it that, and he had review over it. Cite your facts if you want the name changed. Not assumptions. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Proof of real name

TO end all the speculation, please post proof of the programs real name below: If this cannot be dont and all that appears is assumptions and "logic statements" then I this issue should be closed as we do not know enough to say its not the real name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 11:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• By the same reasoning there is no proof that your assertion is correct. Again, as long as we simply do not know, it is incorrect to state the current title is the correct name. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  The person who created the program, called it X. I believe its safe to refer to it as that. You and other editors have stated it was name that after the fact, however you have not offered any proof to it. If I make a program and call it, "Super Spy Epionage" you cannot rename it to something else simply because ... well i am not even sure what your basis for renaming it considering Bush who created the program called it "terrorist surveillance program" --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The entire dispute is about this: when did he name it TSP? Can you prove this name was used in 2001, 2002, 2003? Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton}
    • The burden of proof is not on me, its on you and the editors wanting to rename it to prove your point. You claim its not the name of the program yet its reffered to constantly as "terrorist surveillance program" have you even read the article and its sources? Perhaps you should go through them and see the proof is already there, its constantly refered to as terrorist surveillance program by government officials. If we followed your logic I can rename the article right after you name it, since the burden of proof is on you then to defend your name by proving its the real name. Post your proof below that its not the real name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Pleae read up on logical fallacy. There are numerous references using the name, but can you point out ONE that predates the controversy? Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 12:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
        • So you are saying that before a "top-secret" program was exposed, there should have been documented proof of the programs name and purpose? This is your logic? Further you are gonig against what government officials have called it without citing why. Google is not the measure of what things are called, the people who name them are, the people who have reviewed them, the people who have oversight of them, not CNN's dramatic name for it. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
          • • Still waiting no your verifiable facts since the burden of proof is ont hose wanting to change the name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • Going back to news articles from the end of January 2006, it is obvious that the terminology "Terrorist Surveilance Program" was a tactic move to reframe the debate (see e.g. "Bush seeks to change America’s view on spying" at http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11026705/?displaymode=1006). Also watch Kelly O'Donnell reporting on January 25th that "The White House attempts to change the name of the debate from "domestic spying," to "terrorist surveillance" as the administration continues to try and win the debate" (ibid). This is not the first time the Bush Administration has tried to reframe the debate by changing the terminology, as Media Watch also documented (see http://mediamatters.org/items/200601310002). The use of changing names has also been noted in the Frontline documentary "The Persuaders" as a tactic implemented by the republican party (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/view/). In the documentary, we get to understand how the tactic works by listening to Frank Luntz, the founder of The Luntz Research Companies, that has been hired by the republic party at numerous occations (ibid). The reframing of the debate over inheritance tax, by changing the terminology to "death tax" was Luntz's work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_tax), as was the change to "climate change" from "global warming". The power of reframing issues by chaning words is an established fact (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_%28economics%29).The republican tactic of reframing by changing the worlds has been discussed in books by such notable people such as linguist George Lakoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff). PJ 19:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
                • While its interesting information, it still does not establish that the name was not the original one. It just shows some people think its not, none of them actually show any proof its not, such as a memo of the name change, or a documented previous name etc. There is a bill anyway currently in the Senate to refer to all of these programs as 'Terrorist Surveillance Program', if it wasn't already. So shortly this whole debate will be moot and if it passes the entire article can be moved back to the classification of program it is. There is also no proof of domestic spying, simply one "possible" incident by an anonymous source which states it was beacuse of an international cell phone. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 20:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable Facts:

Copy

Copied this comment and my response to this page, so everybody can benefit.

Regarding this persons contributions to FindLaw, please see [9] She is a guest columnist in that she has written a column. She doesn't write for FindLaw as one of their writers as someone like Joanne Mariner does. [10] --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Nevertheless you will find several articles there written by her. In the future it might be helpful to discuss on the articles pages. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 17:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Doesnt make her a FindLaw writer, yes next time it would. Also sign your comments, and further, there is 6, far cry from several.--zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Needed Sources

Can we get some sources on "Wiretapping" and "Call Database" neither section is sourced. If they cannot be sourced in like a week I will remove them, I am sure a source will be found however, perhaps my search techniques are not as good. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 17:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults

For those interested, an RfC has been filed regarding User:Zer0faults at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults. Any comments would be appreciated. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)