Talk:Gun show loophole

Untitled

Is the Controversial Issues section neutral? It's confusing for sure.--82.15.46.131 05:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Arguably legally?

the text says that someone could end up selling almost a thousand guns at gun shows, and not have to go through background checks. Notice it says that such a person would be posing as a private seller. If he is posing, how can it be argued that he is doing so legally?! botom line, if you sell guns for a living, and are posing as a private party at a gun show, you are breaking the law. Period. there is no loop hole. Dullfig 20:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right. But I think the idea of a loophole in this case is that it's so easy to get away with. If you say you're a private seller, who's going to say otherwise? Thernlund 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Why not merge this article into Gun show. They're both tagged as stubs. I see no reason for two articles on different aspects of the same topic.

If nobody says otherwise in a few days, I'll assume either folks are in agreement or nobody cares enough. Then I'll go ahead and do it. Thernlund 05:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems alright to me. Go ahead. Dullfig 17:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Opposed Greetings everyone. Please make sure you've read the top of the article ("This article is about a U.S. political concept. For information about U.S. gun shows themselves, see Gun shows in the United States.") and the recent revision history of this page and the one for Gun Shows in the United States to see why the split has been made. I look forward to working with everyone interested in improving the efficacy of this article. Thank you. - Respectfully Darknipples (talk) 21:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

No worries, DN. Check out the dates above. This was a separate article at first, then it was merged into the "Gun show" article, which was later renamed "Gun shows in the United States." Lightbreather (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Would it be prudent to delete, edit, or replace them? Darknipples (talk) 22:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

If you mean the comments, they'll get archived some day, but it's unnecessary now. Lightbreather (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Back to being a stand-alone article

New editor Darknipples is going to be working on this article for a while. If you want to help me to help her/him, please do, but let's all remember how to treat a WP:NEWCOMER. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 19:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you LB. There is obviously a lot of work to do now. Focusing on the basic structure of sections in a comprehensive and balanced manner will be key to the first step in making this a quality article. Darknipples (talk) 23:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Controversy

With regard to the event Columbine High School massacre, it seems to be relevant to what made the term "gun show loophole" prolific in modern day American culture. However this reference is also still being used on the Gun Shows in the United States page. Is there any foreseeable issue in using it here? Darknipples (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

No. Lightbreather (talk) 22:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Controversy section to be designated for events cited in relation to GSL - Darknipples (talk) 07:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Legislation

A list of all legislation bills that include the term "Gun Show Loophole"? Perhaps FOPA should have it's own section? Darknipples (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you let the events of the last couple of days rattle you. Just do what seems logical to you, referring to examples of other articles that seem good to you (especially if they've been recognized as good pages). Nothing you do is permanent, so if you mess up, it can be reversed. If you're still unsure, just show a little outline here of what you have in mind. Lightbreather (talk) 23:33, 25 June 2014

You are right about that. I'm very surprised that there was a consensus on the separation today. I need to get my head straight and hunker down. Darknipples (talk) 23:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't clear consensus, but neither was there consensus to keep it where it was. I thought we presented the better arguments for moving, that's all. And I think that if it went into some dispute resolution process, whomever was involved in deciding it would agree - IMO. Lightbreather (talk) 00:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Changes and Deletions

Anastrophe - I see you have deleted most of my recent changes to the article. I realize that I am new, so, I am assuming you prefer I discuss my changes, additions, and deletions here first, before I add them to the article? Would you be willing to do the same? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 02:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You published commentary, bare links, etc - and signed them - in article space. Additions to the article proper are never signed, nor are bare links published. I'd recommend making a copy of the article, and save it to your sandbox, then test your edits there first. You're free to edit all you like, however, obviously inappropriate content is likely to be reverted or fixed by others (inappropriate not in a political sense, inappropriate to article space). The halmark of wikipedia is that whatever changes you make, you must be prepared to have them edited, changed, deleted, at any time, and without 'mercy'. It's a collaborative medium, and every editor has equal power. I think if you review the versions before my changes and compare with them after, you'll see what was wrong. Anastrophe (talk) 02:52, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

To simplify the process, open this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gun_show_loophole&oldid=614450851

then open this in a separate tab, and switch between them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

Anastrophe (talk) 02:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Anastrophe, thank you so much for your guidance. Your recent advice only confirms my instincts, and means very much to me. I truly believe that the separation of "GS" and "GSL" is going to simplify things for everyone. How are things going on the "GS" page? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FOPA Section

FOPA weakens FFL dealer's legal restrictions at Gun Shows, but which parts of the language in it are considered "ambiguous" and why? Darknipples (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

In what way did FOPA weaken FFL restrictions? Fopa mandated that they perform background checks at gun shows. Anastrophe (talk) 04:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FFL's were no longer restricted to selling at their place of business, or, under the guise of an FFL dealer, in that they could sell from their personal collection as a private (correction: "seller"). (edit: without performing a BG check) Darknipples (talk) 04:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FFL's could not and cannot sell inventory without complying with all federal/ATF restrictions, which includes mandated background checks. They cannot pose as private sellers if they are an FFL, and they cannot sell from their 'personal collection' as a private dealer; if they fail to disclose that they're an FFL, they're violating the law. A different wording would be that "FOPA expanded FFL dealer's legal right to include sales at Gun Shows". The regulations are very clear on this, there's no actual weakening of any restriction. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/firearms/ATF_I_5300%2023A.pdf Anastrophe (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

(http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2009/pr442-09_report.pdf) Considering the original statutes under the GCA, and as they are relative to this article, the term "weaken" is more appropriate. The original question asked at the beginning of this section is "which parts of the language in it (FOPA) are considered "ambiguous" and why?" Do you have some relevant information or citations that help to answer this question? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 06:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Since the "gun show loophole" has nothing to do with FFL's, nor even particularly with FOPA, I'm not sure what any of this discussion actually has to do with this article. 06:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I do think a section designated specifically for criticisms of GSL should be created to ensure the article has balance of POV. - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 06:45, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

DN, I'm a little confused by your question. Does this go back to one of the earlier discussions you had with Cullen about how or why the term "gun show loophole" was created? [1] If so, don't worry about that. You might be struggling with what a lot of new WP editors go through. Very few of us have backgrounds in encyclopedia writing. You don't need or want to pose a question and formulate an answer. A lot of new writers don't know about these two policies: WP:OR (original research) and WP:SYNTH (synthesis). Read about those, and once you understand them editing here actually becomes a lot easier. What you want to do is research use of the term "gun show loophole" and what sources say about the topic, and then choose the highest quality and most relevant to put in the article. The hardest part then becomes presenting it in an WP:NPOV (neutral point of view). Once people get past the OR and SYNTH problems, I think the next biggest problem is WP:SOURCE QUALITY and achieving neutrality, so review those, too, please.

So, for now, don't worry about why it's called a loophole - that's just what it's called. Just find out what sources say about the loophole and - following the policies and guidelines I just gave - draft an article. May the force be with you. ;-) Lightbreather (talk) 14:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The term "GSL" may have existed years before FOPA came to fruition. - http://books.google.com/books?id=yGXy5g7rMEsC&pg=PR30&lpg=PR30&dq=Armed+and+Considered+Dangerous:+gun+show+loophole&source=bl&ots=cswq36cVQL&sig=NaTPYLq3_E_z0Wl8ZYtCqKZmI3A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZC6qU4eBD9CPqAbvyYHQCw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Armed%20and%20Considered%20Dangerous%3A%20gun%20show%20loophole&f=false (Scroll down) - It was originally published in 1986, but the highlighted sections may have been added later? Darknipples (talk) 04:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

It was added later.

The oldest reference I can find to guns with the term 'loophole' is this from 1991: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-09-15/news/1991258007_1_felons-exemptions-firearms

However, that's referring to ex-felons getting their firearms rights restored - not the gun show loophole.

The earliest reliable reference to a loophole in relation to private sales at gun shows was the VPC's report of 1996 - http://www.vpc.org/studies/tupeight.htm - although even in that report it's not specifically referred to as the GSL.

The term did not begin to see any widespread use until 1998/1999. Anastrophe (talk) 06:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

"The term did not begin to see any widespread use until 1998/1999." In keeping with this line of thought, in 1999 this report (https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/treas/treas-gun-shows-brady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf) was submitted by the USDOJ and USDOT to then president Clinton, and seemingly became the basis for the bill that was submitted to Congress in April 1999 ("The Youth Crime Gun Enforcement Act") according to this citation (section IX) http://www.justice.gov/archive/opd/AppendixC.htm#N_8_ - Coincidentally, the same month that the Columbine High School massacre happened. Correct? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 06:32, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Lead Section

Gun show loophole is a term that refers to an exception to United States law, under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA), that allows individuals who are "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, to perform firearm sales without running a background check on potential buyers. Private sellers are however forbidden under federal law from selling firearms or ammunition to persons they know or have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms.

I think it's important to note in this section that while GSL refers changes made by FOPA in regard to FFL's, it speaks to the issue of unregulated private sales held by GCAs. Would it help if there was some etymology on gun control advocacy, since it is likely that GSL originated as a term by GCAs?

http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1101&context=wmborj - According to this it began with a "individual rights view" versus a "collective rights view".

I think this piece on gun control holds specific relevance to the term GSL. http://differentviewsonguncontrol.voices.wooster.edu/why-is-the-issue-of-gun-control-so-important/

Darknipples (talk) 22:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Blogs aren't usually considered good quality sources, especially for controversial topics like this. Unless the author is a recognized expert and cited by reliable sources. Sorry. Lightbreather (talk) 01:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

As for the Hardy paper - the well-regulated militia and the subject of collective v. individual rights is way outside the scope of this article. See my advice from earlier today, above, in the outdent in the "FOPA section".[2] Lightbreather (talk) 01:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Last tip for today: Keep the lead simple, brief for now. Work on the body. See great essay snippet WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. Lightbreather (talk) 02:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

If we are now to start getting into expanding the definition of "gun show loophole" beyond what the term is actually used to designate, then we are moving into excruciatingly painful territory. Your statement that "GSL refers [to] changes made by FOPA in regard to FFL's" is simply not true, not supported by sources, and - as presented - is simply one editor's ruminations on how to expand the definition. Please read up on WP:OR. This discussion is not appropriate to the talk page, at all. The talk page is for discussion on improving the article - not how to synthesize new meanings and how to conflate and incorporate them. This article is about the term "gun show loophole" which is widely defined - by those who fancy it - to mean 'private sales of firearms at gun shows that do not require a background check'. It has nothing to do with FFL's, at all. Anastrophe (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the focus should remain on GSL, however, I disagree with your assertion that GSL has nothing to do with FFL's. One example of their connection can be cited in studies by the VPC.---

"The VPC study documented how the 1986 "Firearms Owners' Protection Act" (FOPA) led to the uncontrolled proliferation of gun shows—events at which private citizens and federally licensed gun dealers congregate to buy and sell firearms and related paraphernalia. The VPC's research revealed that the law has resulted in a dramatic increase in the number and size of shows, which occur in auditoriums, fairgrounds, and other outlets in almost every state on virtually every weekend of the year. The VPC's research also demonstrated that this dramatic increase was due largely to two little-noticed changes the FOPA made in the way that federally licensed firearms dealers are regulated—"

---

The law made it legal for Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders to sell at gun shows.

---

The law expanded the opportunities for private citizens to buy and sell firearms at gun shows by raising the threshold of what constituted being "engaged in the business" of selling firearms for purposes of defining who must obtain a federal gun dealer's license.

"The study detailed how gun shows have become a readily available source of weapons and ammunition for a wide variety of criminals—including street gangs, white supremacists, would-be presidential assassins, and domestic terrorists. The utility of gun shows to such dangerous individuals stems primarily from the exemption enjoyed by private sellers from the sales criteria of the Brady law, including a background check. This, in turn, encourages licensed dealers (FFL holders) to sell weapons without following the sales criteria of the Brady law in order to compete with unlicensed sellers." https://www.vpc.org/studies/gunloop.htm - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 22:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the "Gun Show Loophole", the definition of which is found in reliable sources as 'the private sale of firearms at gun shows without background checks'. This article is not about FOPA. It is WP:SYNTH to try to expand the definition beyond that. The VPC's views of FOPA and gun shows are interesting, but they are not what the VPC themselves describe later in that article as 'the loophole'. Nowhere in what you quote are the words "gun show loophole". Synthesis by taking reliable sources and conflating them is not allowed on Wikipedia. Anastrophe (talk) 05:58, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

It is not my intention to "try to expand the definition", it is merely to find relevant correlations that would improve the the efficacy and clarity of the article. It seems as though we keep debating as to whether FOPA is mutually exclusive from the term GSL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM), while there seems to be quite a few citations that suggest there is a correlation, including this one submitted by the USDOJ & USDOT (see section III & IX) (http://www.justice.gov/archive/opd/AppendixC.htm#N_8_). I feel there needs to be some clarification on this issue in order for us to move forward and improve this page. - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

"[...]there seems to be quite a few citations that suggest there is a correlation". "seems to be" and "suggest" are clear signs of synthesis at work. Either reliable sources say something, or they don't. We, the editors, don't interpret what the sources said - we can state what the sources said in encyclopedic terms, or we can quote them directly. We do not add multiple different concepts to the article, then synthesize a connection between them. Please, I again ask that you read WP:SYNTH if you have not done so yet. With that, feel free to edit the article. If problem arise, I or other editors will revert, fix, or advise; that's how wikipedia works. You're free also to publish here what you would like to publish in the article, for your peers to review. That said, I will return back to the statement that started this discussion:

Darknipples: "I think it's important to note in this section that while GSL refers changes made by FOPA in regard to FFL's,"

I'm unable to find any sources that define "Gun Show Loophole" that way. Find a reliable source that says that the term "Gun Show Loophole refers to changes made by FOPA in regard to FFL's", and we'll have a starting point for discussion. Anastrophe (talk) 07:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Closing the GSL - UBCs - Etc

This section is for article discussions that address the challenges associated with eliminating GSL. Darknipples (talk) 03:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, don't worry about this too much right now. Just read my advice from yesterday morning at the outdent in this talk page's "FOPA section." Scroll up or click this: [3].

As for the universal background check, that is a section that I am developing for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System - which is why I ended up on the Gun shows in the U.S. article, and now this one. I was digging around to see if UBC was a topic that was directly addressed anywhere.

You've got plenty of work cut out for you right now just developing the three sections you have in this article now: Legislation, Criticism, and Controversy. Lightbreather (talk) 15:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The Controversy section as it exists now is pretty entirely WP:UNDUE. One statement that lasted about two days of the news cycle amounts to a curiosity. Anastrophe (talk) 16:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it qualifies as WP:undue? To improve this section, I suggest we expand it with notable events that cite the term GSL, such as Columbine. For example, this article by Rolling Stone cites GSL in relation to other controversial events that may or may not have made the term more prolific in U.S. culture. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/what-i-saw-at-the-gun-show-20000608 - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 23:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I explained why it qualifies as undue weight. It's a quote by Gadahn, which lasted about two days in the news cycle, it is not notable enough to garner prominance in this article unless it's been cited by many other sources as meaningful to the use of the term 'gun show loophole'. Expanding the section with details of other 'controversies' is fine, if they are notable. There's nothing in the Rolling Stone article that details controversial events - just a description of one gun show. Not notable. Anastrophe (talk) 06:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Source suggestions

High-quality sources here, please - with a mix of "conservative," "liberal" and neutral sources:

• "Gun Shows: Brady Checks and Crime Gun Traces" (PDF). atf.gov. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). January 1999. {{cite web}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help) - This one is a backbone source for the topic.
• Kopel, David B. (January 10, 2000). "The Facts about Gun Shows". cato.org. Cato Institute. - An early, gun-rights/pro-gun position on the topic.
• Janofsky, Michael (November 15, 2000). "Both Sides See Momentum in Congress for Gun Control". New York Times. - 2000 report in The New York Times.
• Editorial board (April 23, 2007). "Close the gun control loophole". Los Angeles Times. - op-ed by the Los Angeles Times after Virginia Tech.
• Wintemute, Garen J.; Braga, Anthony A.; Kennedy, David M. (August 5, 2010). "Private-Party Gun Sales, Regulation, and Public Safety". The New England Journal of Medicine. 363 (6). Massachusetts Medical Society: 508–511. doi:10.1056/NEJMp1006326. Retrieved 26 June 2014. published online at nejm.org on June 30, 2010 - NEJM report saying gun show loophole accounts for only 3 to 8% of private sales; recommends subjecting all private gun sales to "screening and record-keeping requirements that apply to sales by licensed retailers."
• Dinan, Stephen (December 17, 2012). "Gun bills face tough sailing on Capitol Hill". Washington Times. - a Washington Times report after Sandy Hook.
• Kesling, Ben (December 24, 2012). "Fear of New Restrictions Drives Crowds to Gun Shows". Wall Street Journal. Contributions to article by Jess Bravin. Dow Jones & Company.
• Wintemute, Garen J. (2013). "Comprehensive Background Checks for Firearm Sales: Evidence from Gun Shows". In Webster, Daniel W.; Vernick, Jon S. (eds.). Reducing Gun Violence in America. JHU Press. pp. 95–107. ISBN 9781421411101. OCLC 823897002. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

--Lightbreather (talk) 17:27, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

In addition to simply googling "gun show loophole" try these sources, too:

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

--Lightbreather (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2014 (UTC)