Template talk:Discrimination sidebar

Infidel tax

Would an article about a tax imposed on non-believers of a given religion be a reasonable candidate? Some think not?

Genital Mutilation

Would it be appropriate to include forced Genital mutilation in manifestations? It has been used for centuries to denote class and even third gender. It is a manifestation of sexism, homophobia/binarism, and classism. Slut-shaming and compulsory sterilization are listed, but it would seem that genital mutilation would also fit into a type of manifestation of discrimination. Not always, but most certainly often. Does anyone else agree? Gstridsigne (talk) 11:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree it could be seen as discrimination. Jonpatterns (talk) 09:05, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I will add it then. Gstridsigne (talk) 07:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Cronyism???

How is this a form of discrimination? Is it political corruption? Yes. Is it unfair? Yes. Can it lead to discrimination? Yes. But is it in and of itself discrimination? I don't think so. I am open to others' opinions on the topic. Gstridsigne (talk) 08:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Just a few other points.

• One, no where on the page for Cronyism is it referred to discrimination against a certain party. It is a preferential treatment to friends.
• Two, if cronyism is discrimination, then all methods of exclusion are "discrimination," and the word loses its negative connotations, and is replaced by a more neutral one. If cronyism is discrimination, then so is meritocracy, hiring a qualified candidate for a position, and even voting for a candidate of your choice in a general election.
• Three, cronyism doesn't "fit" among the other forms of discrimination listed. All of the other forms listed are forms that people are discriminated "against" unjustly or unfairly for their membership in a certain group. Cronyism is preferential treatment towards friends. Heterosexism is preferential treatment to those who are heterosexuals AND treatment of homosexuals in a way that assumes or assigns heterosexuality to them. In heterosexism, homosexuals are excluded because of their group membership. In cronyism, friends are INCLUDED because of their group membership. Gstridsigne (talk) 08:55, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Discrimination isn't always about exclusion and it isn't necessarily 'bad'. Cronyism is a form of positive discrimination. Using quotas for female employees is another form of positive discrimination. Perhaps Cronyism does not fit into the section where it is - maybe there could be sub section for positive discrimination.Jonpatterns (talk) 09:20, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the term discrimination loses all meaning. If discrimination includes preferential treatment, then Voting becomes discrimination. If discrimination is just a synonym for judgement, then why does it have its own template? Gstridsigne (talk) 06:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Inclusion or removal of Antisemitism, Anti-Masonry and Islamophobia

@Gstridsigne and Rainbowofpeace: What are the arguments for the inclusion or removal of Antisemitism, Anti-Masonry and Islamophobia. They are forms of discrimination, but we do not want the side-bar not just to become a massive list. Perhaps a place on the Template:Discrimination nav box would be more appropriate, or a religion sub section? The fact that something features on another sidebar or nav box (such as Template:Status_of_religious_freedom or Template:Religious_persecution ) does not exclude it from inclusion on another. Jonpatterns (talk) 09:20, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The main antisemitism article is on the discrimination sidebar. racial antisemitism is in the ethnic discrimination sub-template and religious antisemitism and anti-Judaism are in the religious persecution sub-template. As for Anti-Masonry, Freemasonry is not (nor has it ever been) defined as a religion by its members. It is a fraternal group. The reason why anti-masonry is important is actually because of events like the holocaust which targeted freemasonry. Finally Islamophobia should not be included because it opens up a slippery slope. There is a reason why the sub-templates were created. If we were as to add Islamophobia what would stop us from adding the articles about discrimination against Atheists, or Bahais, Christians or Hindus? Re-merging all the articles from these two templates into the discrimination template would make it huge.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 11:41, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Islamophobia is quite ubiquitous, especially in the United States and Europe. People of assumed Islamic heritage are often harassed, avoided, and refused service. Because this form of discrimination extends beyond religious persecution, it seems appropriate to include it on the discrimination sidebar. Antisemitism is listed in FOUR locations. That seems excessive, honestly. Especially since the overly specific forms are not easily distinguishable since it includes discrimination against an ethnoreligous group and not just a religious or ethnic group, even though their ethnic and religious origins overlap greatly. Islamophobia has this same overlap. Antisemitism and Islamophobia are quite similar actually. As for Free-masonry not being a religion, it is often categorized as a "quasi-religion," meaning that their members display characteristics of religion: ritual, prayer, sacred texts, and fellowship are all necessary aspects of their institution. They also mandate that all members have a belief in a Divine being (though, they often do not mandate to which Deity they must adhere). In this sense, they are more of a religion than Buddhism, Shintoism, and Taoism. So, if Islamophobia doesn't belong in the discrimination sidebar, then neither do these two forms of religious/ethnic discrimination. Gstridsigne (talk) 07:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I believe BOTH Antisemitism and Islamophobia should be included on the discrimination sidebar. Many people are discriminated against because they LOOK Muslim, even if they are not. Many Persians who immigrated to the United States as refugees actually practice Zoroastrianism, but because they appear to be Muslim, others still discriminate against them. Very few forms of discrimination include this component (the notable exception being Homophobia, when someone is assumed to be homosexual because they display certain characteristics, but they are in fact heterosexual). Islamophobia is extended towards people of Middle Eastern, Northern African, Turkish, and South Asian descent. Some Hindus are discriminated against because they are assumed to be Muslim. Due to the very incendiary hatred and fear of people of Islamic faith and Middle Eastern heritage, it seems appropriate to include Islamophobia on the discrimination sidebar (along with Antisemitism) since both Antisemitism and Islamophobia are similar in the sense that they both are discrimination against both a religious and ethnic group. But again, if Islamophobia doesn't belong, then neither does Antisemitism. And Free-masonry IS a religion. Gstridsigne (talk) 07:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

General antisemitism is included in the main discrimination template however the specific forms of antisemitism are examined in the sub-templates. The only way you are going to convince me to bring Islamophobia back in when it is clearly a form of religious discrimination (in spite of the racial implications added by perpetrators of Islamophobia) is to merge all three templates back together.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 18:10, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I must disagree. Islamophobia is not clearly a form of religious discrimination BECAUSE it has racial/ethnic implications as well (as you have admitted). Islamophobia and Anti-Arab sentiments overlap greatly, and because of that, it should be included. Since many in the Arab world are assumed to be Muslim (even if some of them are Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Scientific Atheist, or Jew) it becomes, much like Antisemitism, an ethnoreligious discrimination. To many in the Judeo-Christian world, Arab=Muslim and Muslim=Arab. Just like there are some people of Jewish descent who are not Jews and some people of non-Jewish descent who are Jews, there are some Arabs who are not Muslim and some Muslims who are not Arab. There is a similar intersection of identities among Hindus and people of Asiatic Indian descent. However, though discrimination of Hindus and people of Asiatic Indian descent exists, it is not as pernicious and prevalent as Islamophobia. I hope that there is a third party who will be break the tie, so to speak. Another argument for inclusion is that people would expect it to be listed there. If someone was researching discrimination, and used the discrimination sidebar as a guide, they would be confused if Islamophobia was not present. Gstridsigne (talk) 10:30, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The argument seems to be not whether Islamophobia is a form of discrimination, but rather what type and whether it is significant enough to include in the main sidebar. I feel that it is, but why not add another sub section for Religious discrimination? This way more pages can be linked without it getting too clustered. It might be worth have a request for comments as template talk pages don't get much traffic. Jonpatterns (talk) 12:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

If you really want to reinfuse the three templates I could see that however I must say that if we don't do that and we add Islamophobia to the specific forms whats to keep someone from adding any other form of religious discrimination. There is a reason why the other templates were created in the first place.-206.188.36.124 (talk) 18:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

There simply is no form of labeling that can be considered NPOV when it involves Wikipedia:LABELS#Contentious_labels as mentioned above. Reliable sources may analyze and interpret, but we, as editors, cannot do so ourselves, since that would be original research or would violate the neutral point of view. Arguments for and against the use of the terms mentioned above tell us they can never be neutral. We should avoid their use like the plague. Atsme☯^Consult 04:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Are you going to tell them what Bill Maher thinks? Maybe you can explain to them how there actually are Muslim Terrorists out there and that proves that Islamophobia does not exist. You know, like you did here, Atsme.

And yes, everyone else, this does seem to be a complex bag. It seems above there are two positions. One, was removed because it was confusing. Two, if should be included because it could be confusing to people researching discrimination who notice its absence. An RFC sounds like a very good idea.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 09:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)