Talk:Fascism

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PLEASE NOTE

This page has grown long from time to time and topical subsections have been pulled out and new pages created. Please do not complain about information missing from this page until you have explored the Fascism Template pages. Weaving links to existing pages or adding text with pointers to longer discussions is both appropriate and useful.--Cberlet 21:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a little comment

I believe, though I may be wrong, that the problem with identifying political phenomena today is the same as the predicament before classifications were devised for plants and animals. Lots of people use terms like "fascism" loosely because too many people are offering definitions. We need a system for codifying political regimes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) June 2006 or thereabouts.

Cleanup

What remains to be cleaned up so we can remove the dispute flags? I have moved much of the marginal material to Fascism and ideology. Is there still a problem with the section on religion?--Cberlet 16:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that it now strangely dominates the article, since so much else has been moved to child articles. I'm not greatly concerned, but I suggest it is worth discussing what to do with that section. Jkelly 18:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Definitions

Why is Robert Paxton's working definition of fascism ("A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion) not cited in either this or the Fascism and Ideology articles? I disagree with the view that definitions should not be part of the article; keep in mind that the text should also serve the interest of the curious general reader who seeks a basic grasp of the concept(s) - albeit perhaps one that is necessarily understood from various angles. While the "definitive" definiton may yet be elusive, Paxton's seems at least as worthy of being cited as Mirriam-Webster or the American Heritage. To leave this one (Paxton's) out seems a significant disservice to readers. Arjuna 21:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Added. Good idea. --Cberlet 21:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. Given the contention surrounding this article, I was loathe to do it unilaterally, but I do think it adds something worthy. Arjuna 21:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: 'Scope of the word fascism'

Am I alone in finding the following a glaring contradiction: 'Fascism is not racist (even though Mussolini did eventually put antisemitism on his agenda and did in 1938 pass generally unpopular antisemitic laws)'? Also, 'fascism' should be in inverted commas. Etaonsh 10:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It is confusing, and an issue where there is disagreement among scholars. Needs work. Why should fascism be in inverted commas (quote marks)?--Cberlet 12:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Some earlier 'Fascism' may have been less openly racist/compromised by the 'Axis' alliance with Nazi Germany, but references are needed, and the Fascism experienced as a force in WWII was clearly anti-semitic by then, as the article records.

It's surely the convention to use inverted commas when referring to a word? Etaonsh 13:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Fascism does benefit a great deal from an external enemy, but that does not imply a need for racism. It's a good one, but religious fascism would be easy as well (within a single race), or possibly simply a different culture.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.166.41 (talk • contribs)

If you are not using Mussolini's Italy as definitive of Fascism, we need references for the source of your definition. Fascist Italy seems to have addressed the outside world very badly, seemingly having her ethos significantly compromised by a domineering ally and ultimately provoking military defeat by her enemies. Etaonsh 08:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Many argue that hitler's Germany is the true definition of fascism. In the article it is onlyreally italy that is referred to as specifically fascist. Methods of defining fascism in the context of germany compared to italy would add much value to the article

"Many?" Who, for instance? The scholarly books and articles I have read begin with the idea that the defining model of fascism was Italy, and everything else is compared to that. A few do not even consider Nazi Germany to be a form of fascism (although I disagress). So there is Italian Fascism as a form of corporatism; German Nazi national socialism; and clerical fascism in countries such as Croatia and Romania.--Cberlet 12:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The article does allow for a broader definition of 'fascism' with a small 'f.' Etaonsh 21:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

National Socialism and Fascism are similar but distinct. National Socialism has a more mythical, even cultic, vision of a volk (people's) community, and it also emphasizes racial identity. Mussolini, overall, did not posses these sentiments and was more concerned with political, not biological, weakness (his fears of Communism, Democracy, and Liberalism). They are distinct forces. GANDALF1992 03:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

A few points: I would include Ernst Nolte's 6 points on fascism (antimarxism, antiliberalism, anticonservatism, the leadership principle, a party army, the aim of totalitarianism) [also quoted in Stanley Payne's Fascism]. Secondly, Mussolini's Italy was *not* antisemitic. In fact, Jews were overproportionally represented in the Party. Italian Fascism had an ideology of cultural, instead of racial, superiority. Only in 1938 did Hitler force an antisemitic line. Thirdly, I see that totalitarianism is mentioned. Hannah Arendt's definition of totalitarianism (On the Origins of Totalitarianism) has since been eclipsed by modern historians and political theorists. See, for example, Jan T. Gross (Revolution From Abroad), Anson Rabinbach, and others. And fourthly, it has become just as useful to compare Nazism with Stalinist Bolshevism as with Italian Fascism; Fascism lacked the 'totality' of society that the 2 former exhibited. It should therefore be mentioned that applying the label 'fascist' to Hitler's Germany overlooks the scholarship that has been using Hitler's and Stalin's models as the basis of a totalitarian model.

Hmmm....this sounds exceedingly familiar. You wouldn't happen to be Italian and have been indocrinated with the works of Renzo De Felice for the last 20-30 years, would you??!! There is no dount that de Felice was an extraodinarily talented, bright and knowledgeable historian of fascism (certainly the greatest and most thorough chronicler of this abomination of his generation!!). But de Felice was a self-confessed rigth-winger with an inveitable bias and limited access to the volumianous doceumentation that has recently come to light (and has yet to come to light!!) on that tragic period of history. In particular, the idea that Italian fascism was not anti-semitic has come under serious attack in recent years by several Italian historians of serious weight who have demontsrated that the Mussolini government's primary interest was in protecting exclusively Italian Jews who could be kept on as invaluable and indispensable cheap labor and did nothing at all to stop and/or enthusuaitly participated in the shipping off of non-Italian Jews in, eg, Greece, France and North Africa to the extermination camps all over Europe. I don't remeber the names of the major historians, but the journalists Furio Columbo, Giorgio Bocca and others have writeen about this extensively. The Italian racial laws were not passed involuntarily and Mussonili himself heavily redacted and published the Manifesto of the Italian scientific racists in 1938 or '39 (?). Neither he nor the Italian fasicts intellectuals/ideologists who collaborated in this effort were forced by anyone to adopt these ideas, much less to offically publish them as a sort of unversal manifesto for the fascist movement. I need to get some copies of these author's books and writings and I will let you know whatever information I can gather on this topic. Things are never quote as simple and straightforard as they seem: German Nazis-racist, Italian Fascists-involuntary accomplices!! I don't buy it.--Lacatosias 17:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Richard Griffiths says, "Just as their was little anti-Semitism in Italy, there was equally little anti-Semitism in the movement, which benefited from Jewish founders in its early days, and which was joined by a higher percentage of the small Italian Jewish population than that of the Gentille population. It was only by the late Thirties, under the influence of Hitler's Germany, that that anti-Semitism was to play any important part in Mussolini's policies." (Fascism, pg. 38). Kevin Passmore says the same thing (he also gives instances where Italian policy was explicitly anti-anti-Semitic) except he says it's due also in part to a wave of anti-Semitism that arose all across Europe in '38 due to fear coming from the rise of Hitler (Fascism: A Very Short Introduction, pg. 117). Without adequate sources saying otherwise this is the view we're required to take. - DNewhall

There's a caption under the magazine picture in the article that's pretty biased, and at the very least totally out of place. It has nothing to do with the picture itself.

As I wrote, when I find the sources I will get back to you on it. Period.--Lacatosias 07:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The book (in English) and anything else written by some of the outstanding scholars listed here would not be a bad place to start.--Lacatosias 07:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as an outsider who just happened on this page, I find this is honestly pretty unpersuasive and trollish. Fixed your indentation, by the way.

Further points of discussion

Perhaps its best not to suggest fascism was an advocate of the state or nation as superior. Weren't these more commonly justifications for questionable actions?

It is not a suggestion; questionable actions are just how fascist states operate. A quick glance at the definitions of fascism shows that questionable actions must/will be taken in all cases. To compare it to eating, one does not eat to justify being alive, one eats because one must stay alive. A fascist state must commit questionable actions, because the individual must stay repressed, there usually is some sort of enemy against one can take questionable actions (like in war), or if no enemies exist one must be created (a questionable action I would say). "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." - Mussolini 170.252.248.193

Are you sure referring to the definitions is the best idea? There is afterall a lot of debate over them. Even those used by wikipedia. - Josey, 18/05/06

By the way you did not answer that persons question - Alex, 19/05/06

Its good that it has been noted the difficulty of defining the concept. Why has the wikiproject for fascism said it will rely on the wikipedians definition though - What definition?

A similar system to fascism (albeit a primitive one) has been suggested to have first occurred in Spain up to 300 or 400 years ago. One author who suggesed this for example though there are many more is H.R. Kedward. Perhaps this is worth noting. I.e. "One for all and all for one"

Also Its good that the various differences have been noted between Mussolini's Fascism and Hitlers Nazism. Perhaps this deserves more emphasis though.

Various other advocates could be explored in more detail during the pre-war period such as those in Holland, and the US. Similarities to Japan and Kitta Ikki's ideas may also be worth exploring.

Lastly, i hope their are plans to expand this article. - A regular visitor to wikipedia 14/05/06

(Removed the new header that was here to prevent confusion regarding this dialogue.--Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 07:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC))

I say leave it...I agree fascism is used to loosley today however it is a political Philosophy and there will always be debates

Please sign comments in the future as it helps to seperate the personalities in the conversation. Thanks.

There seems to be overlap in this discussion with one taking place at WikiProject Fascism. The topic I refer to is Accusation of fascism. It has been suggested that a seperate article be developed concerning the use, abuse, and etymology of the terms fascism and fascist. Thoughts anyone? --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 07:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

Isn't that Fascism (epithet), an article that needs some attention? Jkelly 17:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see Fascism (epithet) merged with Fascist (epithet). And maybe that resultant article serves the purpose we were looking to address. Thoughts?--Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 22:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

Fascinating. There seem to be no corresponding articles on Communist (epithet) or Communism (epithet). I wonder why that is the case? Having lived in the US for most of my life, I can assure that the terms socialism (epithet) and socialist (epithet) are extraordinaily common terms of abuse used to delegimitize anyone who holds policital beliefs which even midly deviate from the hard-right wing views of Rush Limbaugh!! Why are there no articles on these particular terms of abuse?? HMMMMMMM!! --Lacatosias 10:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Fascism and Sexuality Citation Cleanup

I added a book cite to the section because the reference cite above it wasn't working right and wasn't as complete in information (viewed on the edit page - link didn't work on the article page). Also, the ref link is suppose to point out that the citation referenced is from the forward and I wasn't able to make that happen in the book cite. I am not up to the task yet of sorting out how this is suoppose to best display and and be styled so I need some help for that. Thanks. --Ma'ath'a'yü (aka: Proofing) 17:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)^{Talk | @}

Nazism began as a form of National Socialism

This deserves to be mentioned on this page, but in a factual and NPOV way. Nazism was only one form of national socialism. Nazism changed dramatically once in state power in Germany. The relentless attempts by a handful of editors to paint fascism as a form of socialism so that they can piss all over people on the political left is not merely annoying, but violates several Wiki policies. If we can teach cats not to spray in the house to mark their territory, there is hope that we can teach Wiki editors the same basic manners.--Cberlet 16:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually this article amazingly transfert the real discussion on fascism in the Italian fascism page, which I haven't closely read but doesn't seem outstanding either. Since many historians consider that fascism was a unique movement that can, in truth, only qualify Italian fascism, this is quite strange... There is surely loads of work to do here, and it is definitely important enough. Tazmaniacs 16:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

We have been through this discussion repeatedly. Among current recognized scholars of fascism, the general consensus is that fascism (small f) had three forms in the interwar period (Italian Corporatism, German Nazism, and Clerical Fascism). There is also a general consensus that fascism survived after WWII in an increasing number of variations, including International Fascism. There is a lengthy discussion in the archive if anyone wants to see it.--Cberlet 16:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Communism was a reaction to bourgeois liberalism, fascism was a reactionary reaction to communism. Certainly if one was first a communist, one can have become disillusioned, and turn into a reactionary fascist. This is the story some liberals will tell you, and it needs to be mentioned as well. Intangible 16:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Fascism page got too big, and was split up into a collection of pages. For the page discussing fascism and socialism, please see Fascism and ideology, which is linked to on this page and the Fascism Template.--Cberlet 18:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I would still expect an Anti-liberalism section though in this article. Intangible 18:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a good idea --a fascist critique of laissez-faire capitalism. RJII 13:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

As RJII is well aware, this debate has been repeated more than once, and the consensus is always that this discussion -- primarily a set of marginal right-wing claims linking fascism and national socialism in a way that bashed the political left -- belongs elsewhere, primarily at Fascism and ideology. --Cberlet 21:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that both Fascism and fascism are staunchly anti-liberal deserves mention in both those articles. I can only refer you to the work of Benedetto Croce. Intangible 23:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe fascism can be defined as any far right government that stresses intense nationalism over individualism, hence the bundle of sticks analogy.

<-----And yet, most scholars disagree...--Cberlet 13:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I myself never had heard of the expression "Clerical Fascism" before and can assure that it is not a consensus of scholar to distinguish Fascism into these three types. There are clearly various categorizations and Wiki may have privilegied this "tripartition". I see however that the "Clerical Fascism" article is quite under-developed, and that it includes Vichy France — a term which is used by no Vichy regime scholar that I know of. I understand what the authors mean about it, and it probably is quite relevant for Salazar & Franco (although that doesn't makes it a "consensus" for scholars anyhow). In my understanding, Fascism usually designs primarily Italian fascism, which is itself then divided into various historical phases (before power, power, etc.). The term "Clerical Fascism" was clearly coined to refer to those quasi-fascist regimes which almost everybody accords in seeing some relations with Fascism (the date is a good point to start on), but with few of them claiming they were completely Fascism. The relation to religion & to ideology are usually invoked. Nazism, on the other hand, is often considered a form of exacerbated fascism, or "war Fascism", or again Fascism with a more developed racist ideology and anti-Semitic program. The question about the survivance of Fascism after WWII should of course be adressed. Tazmaniacs 23:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Try reading some of the major scholarship on fascism written in the past 20 years. Clerical fascism is a common term. Your claims about fascism are outdated and marginal and do not represent the work of Payne, Griffin, Eatwell, Laqueur, Paxton, etc. What scholars are you relying on? Please name them and cite their works.--Cberlet 02:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Chip, you say above: Among current recognized scholars of fascism, the general consensus is that fascism (small f) had three forms in the interwar period (Italian Corporatism, German Nazism, and Clerical Fascism). This seems distinctly wrong to me. As I understand it, four fairly distinct forms of genuinely fascist movements are recognized - Italian fascism/corporatism and imitators (including the Déat and Doriot parties in France, the pre-Franco Phalange in Spain, Mosley's party in England, and various other imitators in most European countries); German Nazism and imitators (Austrian, Danzig, Czechoslovak Nazis, notably, but other tiny groups elsewhere); the Hungarian Arrow Cross movement; and the Romanian Iron Guard. Note that while there are thus few true fascist regimes, this still leaves a substantial number of fascist movements. I would say that most people I've read don't consider "clerical fascism" (regimes like Salazar's Portugal or Dollfuss's Austria; movements like the Action Française) as really being "true fascism." If I recall Payne, his argument was that these movements, and other radical right wing movements, do not qualify as fascist because they are too conservative. If we go back to Nolte's fascist minimum, clerical fascism isn't anti-conservative - it is, in fact, reactionary. The extent of the leadership principle and the aim of totalitarianism can also be debated in these types of movements and regimes, I think. (Did Kurt Schuschnigg really develop the leadership principle?) Obviously most of the right wing regimes in Europe in the 1930s took some fascist elements, and shared in the anti-liberalism and anti-marxism that distinguisehd the fascists But it seems like most of these regimes are more easily comparable to the proto-authoritarian catholic conservatism of a Brüning, or to the semi-fascist right wing nationalism of Hugenberg's DNVP, than they are to true fascism of the Nazi and Italian varieties. So I'd prefer to be careful with "clerical fascism" - I don't think there's any real consensus that "clerical fascist" regimes were genuinely fascist. john k 19:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The Hungarian Arrow Cross movement which was briefly handed state power by the Nazis, and the Romanian Iron Guard, are examples of clerical fascism.--Cberlet 20:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any reasonable way to classify the Arrow Cross as clerical fascism. It was, as I understand it, a very idiosyncratic movement. There was a lot of pseudo-pagan mysticism about the Magyar people as nomadic warriors in central Asia, and that kind of thing. It certainly doesn't seem very much like Salazar - it's more like Himmler's Nazi mysticism than like typical clerical fascism, but isn't obviously all that similar to Nazism, either. I'm not really sure about the Iron Guard, either - traditional definitions of "clerical fascism" are based pretty closely on the connection to the Catholic Church. Obviously the Iron Guard had a lot of basis in Orthodox beliefs, but I'm not sure that qualifies it as "clerical fascist."

At any rate, if I recall correctly, Payne, whose book I've read most recently, divides the various right-wing movements of the interwar period as such:

1. The "normal right". Examples would include Brüning's quasi-authoritarian rule in Germany; Horthy's "reactionary liberalism" in Hungary; the SEDA in Spain; the Croix-de-Feu movement in France; the Colonels in Poland, Metaxas in Greece, the various strong men of the Baltics, the royal dictatorships in Romania, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia; the clerical regime of Dollfuss and Schuschnigg in Austria; perhaps Salazar's Portugal. These individuals and movements would be virulently anti-marxist, and usually not trivially anti-liberal as well (Horthy in Hungary would be a partial exception, perhaps due to the lengthy and strong liberal tradition in Hungary.) They tended to be strongly traditionalistic and conservative, and to increasingly prefer authoritarian solutions and be contemptuous of liberal democracy.
2. The "radical right." This would include Hugenberg's DNVP; the Action Française; Julius Gömbös's racist movement in Hungary, and similar groups. Payne defines these groups as more radical than the traditional conservatives, and more right-wing than the fascists. They embraced many of the methods of true fascists, but continued to identify with the traditional right in ways that the fascists rejected.
3. Finally the Fascists. Payne divides fascism into four categories, as I said before:
   1. Italian fascism and imitators (Mosley, Déat, Doriot, the Phalange, etc.)
   2. German National Socialism and imitators (National Socialist parties in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Danzig; various other tiny Nazi movements in other countries)
   3. The Hungarian Arrow Cross, considered sufficiently idiosyncratic to be sui generis
   4. The Romanian Iron Guard, likewise.

Now, obviously, one can define things differently from Payne. But the idea of "clerical fascism" seems entirely incoherent to me. To combine radical fascist type groups like the Ustasa and the Iron Guard (and, apparently you say, the Arrow Cross), with reactionary clerical regimes like Salazar's or Dollfuss's seems inappropriate. I think a basic issue is the distinction between a fascist movement (an idea which is fairly well-defined in the comparative sense), and a regime, which I think is an incoherent concept that doesn't really work - in no country did fascism ever take over the entire state structure in the way that Communism did in the Soviet Union. Even in Nazi Germany, which went the furthest in this direction, you have considerable autonomy within the officer corps, for instance, to the extent that the anti-Hitler plotting therein went unnoticed for years. Moving to Italy, where the royal family remained and the army was never really under fascist control, this is even more true, and pretty much every other regime that had fascist involvement usually never really saw the fascists in complete control - Antonescu, for instance, included the Iron Guard in his government from 1940-1941, but he was not himself a fascist; nor was Pétain really a fascist, although his government included fascists; the same can be said for Franco. A notable thing about many of the right wing regimes established in the 30s and 40s is the pluralism of their internal viewpoints. While external dissent was suppressed, there wasn't any clear consensus about the ideological position of the regime. This is particular clear with respect to Vichy France - you have genuine fascists like Déat and Doriot; you have reactionary Action Française types like Weygand who want to crush the French left, but hate the Germand and Nazism; you have technocratic internal reformers like Darlan who have decided that an authoritarian regime is the most efficient way to run the country and want to reform the government to increase technocratic control; you have an old parliamentary schemer like Laval who is mostly concerned with aligning France with German foreign policy. john k 23:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

A number of scholars call the Croatian Ustashe, Romanian Iron Guard, and Hungarian Arrow Cross fascist movements.

RADU IOANID, The sacralised politics of the Romanian Iron Guard, Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Volume 5, Number 3, Winter 2004http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/tmp/2004/00000005/00000003/art00005;

Nicholas M. Nagy–Talavera, The Green Shirts and the Others: A History of Fascism in Hungary and Romania (Iaşi and Oxford: The Center for Romanian Studies, 2001);

And others. I do make distinctions among conservative, radical conservative, and fascist movements.--Cberlet 00:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, so does Payne, as I noted above. He discerns four main types of fascism, two of which are the Arrow Cross and the Iron Guard, as sui generis variants of fascism. I don't recall exactly how he categorizes the Ustasha, but I think they were considered somewhere on the border of radical conservative and fascism (but don't quote me on that, I don't have Payne in front of me). My point was that I'm fairly sure the Arrow Cross cannot be categorized as clerical fascism, because it wasn't clerical, and that I'm dubious of characterizing the Iron Guard that way, because "clerical fascism" is generally seen associated with Catholicism. I also find the term "clerical fascism" itself to be more confusing than illuminating - it lumps together authoritarian, but basically normal conservative movements/regimes like Salazar in Portugal or Dollfuss in Austria with much more explicitly fascistic regimes like the Ustasha. john k 15:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, and Roger Griffin and I have gone back and forth over this same ground in a scholarly journal, with Roger arguing that the term "clerical fascism" is too loosely applied, and with me offering the term "theocratic fascism" to cover certain movements. Payne does not use the term "clerical fascism." But since a number of scholars use the term "clerical fascism" our original research is all very fascinating, but otherwise has no relationship to editing text here due to the No Original Research" rule. I don't like the term "Islamism," as it is too loose and is objected to by many Muslims as tying their religion to a political struggle. But I can't pretend the term does not exist and is used in a particular way by many scholars.--Cberlet 12:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how original research is being done here. I wasn't saying that the term doesn't exist. I was objecting to your claim above that it is one of three generally recognized variants of fascism, along with Nazism and Italian fascism. I was also objecting, later, to your characterization of the Arrow Cross as clerical, when, as far as I am aware, it wasn't at all. I think we ought to be careful about using a controversial term like "clerical fascism" - which you've just noted that Payne doesn't use and that Roger Griffin finds to be applied too loosely. All I'm saying is that we should avoid using it too loosely, and should closely base what we say on what major scholars of fascism say. Most of the times I've seen "clerical fascism" used it's been in a loose sense, and not in serious comparative studies of fascism. Many of the regimes called "clerical fascist," like Salazar's or Dollfuss's, are explicitly denied to be fascist by several of the books I've read. We should just be careful with the term. john k 17:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

scope of definition

I believe the intro should use the common usage definition - not the narrow (Franco) definition. Perhaps we could say something like fascism is a government after the style of ... But when the man in the street says that someone is a fascist, he doesn't mean that they are Italian. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The first paragraph clearly mentions the more expansive definition. And when the man in the street says that someone is a fascist, that does not necessarily mean that they fit conventional scholarly definitions of fascism. Lots of men on the street say that George W. Bush is a fascist, for instance, although he clearly doesn't fit the normal definitions very well. john k 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous related pages on Wiki that discuss aspects of fascism in detail. I think it is appropriate that this page has a narrow focus based on scholalry work.--Cberlet 02:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

<----Sorry. Didn't mean to suggesting we should be less than rigourous in our discussion. It's just that the current intro starts off talking about italian facism, in the past tense, which is a misleading guide to the the rest of this page.

There is also some duplication in the intro, and a few things said by way of explaination that can, I think, could be addressed by rewording the intro to remove the confusing bits.

What about:

Fascism is a radical authoritarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.

The original facist (fascismo) movement ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe between World War I and World War II, most notably Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler, but also Hungary's Arrow Cross Party, Romania's Iron Guard, Spain's Falange, and the French political movements led by Marcel Déat and Jacques Doriot.

It combines the two paragraphs, and (I hope) makes clear that there a general sense of the word (implicitly discussed on this page) and a strict sense (explicitly linked to the first time it is mentioned).

Yes? No? Thoughts? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That does seem better to me. john k 09:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems better too me as well. Could folks please learn to use the colons to step the discussion over? This format makes discussions easier to read.--Cberlet 13:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel the current version has the advantage of explicitly mentioning that there are several interpretations of the term. This is not present in the definition you propose. Can you add something to this end? Dpotop 13:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It speaks of the 'original facist movement', mentions that there were 'similar' movements, and describes fascism as a political philosophy. That's a couple of different interpretations already. What are we still missing?

Given that there is agreement that this is an improvement, I'll put it in. We can keep improving it. Regards, Ben Aveling 08:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fascist Economics

Noticeably absent is any serious insight to the economic policies of fascism. A few words are thrown around here or there, but there is nothing concise. But without understanding who was doing what with the $$, there is a big gap IMO -- jce17:20, 15 June 2006 EST]

Please Note: This page has grown long from time to time and topical subsections have been pulled out and new pages created. Please do not complain about information missing from this page until you have explored the Fascism Template pages. Weaving links to existing pages or adding text with pointers to longer discussions is both appropriate and useful. There are already several pages where Fascism and political economy is discussed. See, for example, Fascism and ideology and Economics of fascism. --Cberlet 21:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you mean? Economic policies? The truth of the matter is that Hitler stumbled into Keynesian Economics by chance more then anything else (surprisingly scholars can agree on this) – Hitler had no economic background. Further Keynes’ The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money wasn't to be released for a few years yet. Hitler was militaristic and thus spent money on military expansion. Although, this did result in economic growth it is doubtful that Hitler actually planned it to do so. - A Wikipedian - 19-06-06

A blurb on Hitler's use of mefo bills and general subversion of traditional economics under Hjalmar Schacht might be helpful because it belies fascism's tendency of mass deception and corruption. Potashnik 17:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Anti-rationalism

Just wondering if there would be any objection to me including "anti-rationalism" in the first line along with the other elements that fascism incorporates? Though anti-rationalism itself has no article, opposition to the intellectual dominance post-Enlightenment, and a focus on urges and social Darwinism were significant aspects of fascist theory, as I have been discovering from several texts I'm reading about it. -Erolos 18:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

More information of American fascism

Although the U.S. never was completely under the fascist spell of the 1930s, we have a far-right anti-democracy underground in America. Most neo-fascist and far-right political groups carried hypnotic labels or starts with "American", "Christian", "Conservative", "Moralist", "Nationalist" and "Patriotic" seem to hold a semi-fascist ideology. They are the National Alliance, the Christian Identity (not the Christian Coalition, sometimes reported to have a rightist anti-liberal viewpoint) and the American Fascists or Nazis under a variety of official party names. They preached the "dangers" of social permissiveness, liberal/moderate reform, the threat of "foreign influences" like Islamic terrorism, and hold a racist, nativist and anti-gay/feminist agenda. Many of the far-right get off ranting on some subjects like "political correctness", "liberal elite" and "new world order", deemed as threats to usually "white Christian straight working men" in rural America. The abuse and manipulation of "old fashioned" traditonal and moral values of a "very democratic" country by neo-Fascism in the U.S. goes ignored by the public, but widely reported by the media as conservatives whom gone to the extreme. If the U.S. is historically opposed to all dictatorship and totalitarianism, because they violate the free will of the people and the individual, then why did a rise of small but hostile organizations of neo-fascists/Nazis, hate groups and militias since the 1980's wasn't curtailed not by the government, but the American people? Most decent thinking people in the U.S. find the neo-Fascist movement is unworthy and unacceptable. It made me wonder Wikipedians from the U.S. and Europe are not fully aware of the subject on the phenomenon and we need sources to research American neo-fascism. The American far-right prototype of militia members like Timothy McVeigh, committed the 1995 bombing on the federal building in Oklahoma City, and he deeply held far-right/ neo-fascist beliefs. + 207.200.116.68 17:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The pages you are looking for are neo-fascism and neo-nazism, among others.--Cberlet 03:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of movements are against of todays democracy, not all of them want to throw it down to place an Adolf or a Mao instead of a W., but make it less corrupt from what it is right now (easily enough, money moves democracy today, making it fairly undemocratic), and these people arent necesarely facists.

This is the wrong page for these comments. Please do some homework. Please stop wasting the time of serious editors.--Cberlet 01:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Compliments

This article has come a long way in just a few months. The part involving religion and fascism is particularly interesting. Just a few comments though. I am hoping that the actual scapegoats used by the various regimes will be properly identified instead of been thrown untidily into a single overarching category called “national enemies.”

Lastly, the article states that aristocrats lent their support to the various fascist regimes - I think perhaps this should be substantiated because the various regimes played on the masses and as such drew the majority of their support from the masses and proportionally very little from the elite. -- A Wikipedian - 28-06-06.

Remove Flags

I propose that we remove the quality and NPOV flags. Comments?--Cberlet 14:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks OK to me. -- Vision Thing -- 14:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Uncanny, I was planning on asking the same thing too. I'm for removing them. - DNewhall

Disinformation

The Roman Fasces (bundle with axe) is a noble symbol representing the power of cooperation. As individual branches are easily broken, but resistant when joined together. Likewise weak individuals become stronger when their efforts are combined. The axe head was symbolic of the awesome force of such cooperation.

Governments are instituted among men to secure rights, according to the Declaration of Independence (1776).

The fasces grace the U.S. Congress building, in harmony with that sentiment.

According to Webster's Dictionary: FASCISM - any political or social ideology of the extreme right which relies on a combination of pseudo-religious attitudes and the brutal use of force for getting and keeping power.

LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.

RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.

THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.

THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.

From these definitions, we can see that the common use of the term "Fascism" is inaccurate.

Both Hitler and Mussolini OPPOSED the traditional governments of their respective nations, thus branding them as LEFT WING. Since FASCISM is right wing, and in support of the traditional government, the abuse of the fasces and its symbolism is disinformation promulgated to confuse.

Both Socialism and Communism, by definition, are opposed to traditional government, they are LEFT WING. The common characteristic of both Socialism and Communism, is the transfer of private property rights to the collective (*State). They only differ by the degree of transfer.

The compelled dispossession of private property owners is evidence that both Socialism and Communism are piracy (or more accurately, piracy ashore), disguised by flowery phraseology.

Both "Fascist" Italy and "NAZI" Germany were left wing, and therefore not fascists. They WERE socialists, though not in harmony with the socialist paradigm promulgated by Marx and Lenin.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jetgraphics (talk • contribs)

Hmmm... Did you know that there is a party over here in Italy called the Radicals which strongly defends private property rights and liberalization of the economy, is ferociously anti-clerical, anti-traditional (they support gay marriages, abolition of the Concordat, stem-cell research, quotas for women in Parliament, pacifist disobedience, abolition of the military and so on) and they are now offically a part of the center-left wing coaltion allied with socialists and communists against Berlusconi and the right!!

Well, what on earth shall we make of that, my libertarian friends?? Meanwhile, the facists (Alessandra Mussolini) and post-fascists of National Alliance defend the traditional istitutions of Church, state, military, law and order, family, etc... They proudly label themsleves extreme right-wing!! Go back to school please!!--Lacatosias 09:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please Note: Dear Jetgraphics: your comments are not a revelation--it is a marginal assertion by tiny handful of libertarians and conservatives. This debate is covered in agonizing detail at Fascism and ideology. Please do not assume other editors are idiots. Please read more widely in the field before lecturing us. Thank you. Have a nice 4th of July weekend, where we celebrate the quest for democracy rather than the defense of private property.--Cberlet 21:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Fascism is not Left Wing, Hitler and Mussolini were not left-wing

Again, this stupid point is being made! You can't describe Hitler and Mussolini as left-wing. it's utterly stupid. They both insisted they were returning to some form of real or imagine "traditional" values, they hated, or claimed to hate everything modern.

Yes, obviously they were revolutionaries who destroyed the (not especially well-) established governments in Germany and Italy, but they claimed they were doing this because the establishment was corrupt and decadent.

The only convincing argument that i've ever heard claiming that fascism is left-wing is that it believes in state-intervention in the economy.

However, lots of capitalist, right wing governments have used state intervention in the economy. I'd hardly call early 19th Century Britain "socialist" or "left-wing", but it used very heavy tarrifs and subsidies to protect British farmers. George Bush's America still subsidizes cotton farmers and imposes tarrifs on imported steel.

All countries introduce command economies during times of major war, both Britain and the USA during WW2 being excellent examples of this. Fascist countires being by nature militaristic, inevitably have some form of command economy to produce all the weaponry they need. But, unlike real planned, socialist economies, fascists never nationalized all industries and shut down private companies. Hitler USED private companies to produce everything from tanks and artillery to Zyklon B gas and the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Are there similarities between Fascism and totalitarianist communism? Yes. Does this mean that Fascism is left-wing? No.

217.196.239.189 15:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Collectivism

Note to user Intangible. Please do not add "collectivism" to the entry core definition until the discussion with you at the Nazism page is finished. Assume good faith. Continue with your cites to published material that support your views at the Nazism page.--Cberlet 16:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Changed. Intangible 18:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Not done. Complete fabrication and distortion of ongoing discussion.--Cberlet 20:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Distortion? Please provide some quotes for your last change. Until then I cannot be see this a ongoing discussion related to Fascism. Intangible 21:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)