Talk:Compulsory Miseducation/GA1: Difference between revisions
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:: I'm curious how you're substantiating those claims that CM had any influence on the FSM. What sources do you have in mind? – [[user talk:czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:black'><u>czar</u></span>]] 14:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC) |
:: I'm curious how you're substantiating those claims that CM had any influence on the FSM. What sources do you have in mind? – [[user talk:czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:black'><u>czar</u></span>]] 14:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:::Czar, there's an enormous amount of literature on this subject, particularly after the 1970s, when this movement faded. The sources used to write this article come from its heyday. When you start to use sources from the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s, the legacy and influence will emerge. There's a general overview you can look at from 2002, called ''Free Schools, Free People: Education and Democracy after the 1960s'' that makes the case, but more importantly, places the author and his work in the proper context of the FSM. Although there is a lot there, you can get a basic sense of the depth of the subject by starting on page 46 and reading for several pages. Academic [[Joel Spring]] referred to Goodman as "a leader in the free-school movement in the 1960s and 1970s" and as a "freeschool advocate".[https://books.google.com/books?id=ND7E4zFM4PMC] My concern isn't so much with the specifics, but with the lack of a general background, historical context, influence, and legacy in the article. Also, I note that many of the sources refer back to ''[[Growing Up Absurd]]'' as a supporting work, so perhaps this article should also mention the connection between both works. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 19:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC) |
:::Czar, there's an enormous amount of literature on this subject, particularly after the 1970s, when this movement faded. The sources used to write this article come from its heyday. When you start to use sources from the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s, the legacy and influence will emerge. There's a general overview you can look at from 2002, called ''Free Schools, Free People: Education and Democracy after the 1960s'' that makes the case, but more importantly, places the author and his work in the proper context of the FSM. Although there is a lot there, you can get a basic sense of the depth of the subject by starting on page 46 and reading for several pages. Academic [[Joel Spring]] referred to Goodman as "a leader in the free-school movement in the 1960s and 1970s" and as a "freeschool advocate".[https://books.google.com/books?id=ND7E4zFM4PMC] My concern isn't so much with the specifics, but with the lack of a general background, historical context, influence, and legacy in the article. Also, I note that many of the sources refer back to ''[[Growing Up Absurd]]'' as a supporting work, so perhaps this article should also mention the connection between both works. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 19:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC) |
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:::: <small>([[Help:Edit conflict|edit conflict]])</small> I generally appreciate your thorough style of review, but your tone comes off as presumptuous. I would appreciate trying to work with me rather than telling me how it is. I'm very familiar with the free school movement. I wrote its WP article. I asked what I did because I've read almost all the extant literature on the FSM (which is scattered and definitely not "enormous"), including Miller's book, and know there is no connection between CM's specific legacy and the FSM apart from it being a book that adherents might have read. Secondary sources purely use CM as a statement of his ideology or philosophy on education. That's how it's quoted in the Miller book you suggested. While it was one of his more popular books, its influence pales in comparison to ''Growing Up Absurd'', his breakthrough, which made him a countercultural icon (as social critic, radical romantic) to FSM people. So if anything, Goodman's oeuvre after GUA influenced the FSM but hardly the specific ideas in CM. If any secondary source spoke about CM's wider influence, I would have included it. It's completely normal for a book's reception to clump around its release date—that's what most books do. It has not garnered much interest since the 70s (similar to Goodman's own legacy), apart from what I just described. CM has no real Legacy to warrant an arbitrary two-paragraph section, and anything worth extracting about its relation to the FSM fits better on PG's page (which I have in draft). Now, I would have entertained a suggestion to try to build a "Legacy" section—which is a fair request—had you just taken the kinder route of asking a question rather than making a demand, but it is irresponsible and so far outside the scope of this GA review to assert some kind of authority to send me (or anyone else for that matter) on a wild goose chase after nonexistent connections. I would have replied that the FSM was largely peripheral to Goodman, and the secondary sources, including the passage of the Miller book you mentioned, refer to his work as a whole rather than singling out CM. I can add a brief blurb on Legacy based on a retrospective source, even though I find it unnecessary, but I would never have threatened this review (or one like it) with failing in breadth without being damn sure that the claims I were making were substantiated. I hope you will be more generous in your future interactions and reviews. – [[user talk:czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:black'><u>czar</u></span>]] 19:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC) |
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===Additional notes=== |
===Additional notes=== |
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Revision as of 19:42, 1 July 2015
GA Review
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| Reviewing |
Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 06:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Criteria
Good Article Status - Review Criteria
A good article is—
- Well-written:
- (a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and
- (b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.[1]
- Verifiable with no original research:
- (a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
- (b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose);[2] and
- (c) it contains no original research.
- Broad in its coverage:
- (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[3] and
- (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
- Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
- Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. [4]
- Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: [5]
- (a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
- (b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.[6]
Review
- Well-written:
- Verifiable with no original research:
- Broad in its coverage:
- Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
- Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
- Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
| Criteria | Notes | Result |
|---|---|---|
| (a) (prose) | The reviewer has no notes here. |  Undetermined
|
| (b) (MoS) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| Criteria | Notes | Result |
|---|---|---|
| (a) (references) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| (b) (citations to reliable sources) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| (c) (original research) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| Criteria | Notes | Result |
|---|---|---|
| (a) (major aspects) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| (b) (focused) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| Notes | Result |
|---|---|
| The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| Notes | Result |
|---|---|
| The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| Criteria | Notes | Result |
|---|---|---|
| (a) (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
| (b) (appropriate use with suitable captions) | The reviewer has no notes here. | Undetermined
|
Result
| Result | Notes |
|---|---|
| Undetermined |
The reviewer has no notes here. |
Discussion
- Preliminary observations
- @Czar: this is a great start, and you clearly put some work into this, but looking at the scope and the references, I do see a small red flag. Your references range only for a period of about a decade out from when the book was originally published. Because of this narrow range, you've missed out on the wider, historical context that this book fits into, which has come to be known as the free school movement. The influence this book had on the movement and the interchange of ideas that arose out of its contribution to this body of thought is covered in many reliable sources published since that time. In other words, you're missing out on the wider influence and legacy that this book fits into. Personally, I would categorize this absence under criterion 3a (Broad coverage). You really wouldn't have to add very much to address this, perhaps two large paragraphs at the most, in either a "Legacy" or "Influence" section of some kind. Viriditas (talk) 06:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- I'm curious how you're substantiating those claims that CM had any influence on the FSM. What sources do you have in mind? – czar 14:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- Czar, there's an enormous amount of literature on this subject, particularly after the 1970s, when this movement faded. The sources used to write this article come from its heyday. When you start to use sources from the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s, the legacy and influence will emerge. There's a general overview you can look at from 2002, called Free Schools, Free People: Education and Democracy after the 1960s that makes the case, but more importantly, places the author and his work in the proper context of the FSM. Although there is a lot there, you can get a basic sense of the depth of the subject by starting on page 46 and reading for several pages. Academic Joel Spring referred to Goodman as "a leader in the free-school movement in the 1960s and 1970s" and as a "freeschool advocate".[1] My concern isn't so much with the specifics, but with the lack of a general background, historical context, influence, and legacy in the article. Also, I note that many of the sources refer back to Growing Up Absurd as a supporting work, so perhaps this article should also mention the connection between both works. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I generally appreciate your thorough style of review, but your tone comes off as presumptuous. I would appreciate trying to work with me rather than telling me how it is. I'm very familiar with the free school movement. I wrote its WP article. I asked what I did because I've read almost all the extant literature on the FSM (which is scattered and definitely not "enormous"), including Miller's book, and know there is no connection between CM's specific legacy and the FSM apart from it being a book that adherents might have read. Secondary sources purely use CM as a statement of his ideology or philosophy on education. That's how it's quoted in the Miller book you suggested. While it was one of his more popular books, its influence pales in comparison to Growing Up Absurd, his breakthrough, which made him a countercultural icon (as social critic, radical romantic) to FSM people. So if anything, Goodman's oeuvre after GUA influenced the FSM but hardly the specific ideas in CM. If any secondary source spoke about CM's wider influence, I would have included it. It's completely normal for a book's reception to clump around its release date—that's what most books do. It has not garnered much interest since the 70s (similar to Goodman's own legacy), apart from what I just described. CM has no real Legacy to warrant an arbitrary two-paragraph section, and anything worth extracting about its relation to the FSM fits better on PG's page (which I have in draft). Now, I would have entertained a suggestion to try to build a "Legacy" section—which is a fair request—had you just taken the kinder route of asking a question rather than making a demand, but it is irresponsible and so far outside the scope of this GA review to assert some kind of authority to send me (or anyone else for that matter) on a wild goose chase after nonexistent connections. I would have replied that the FSM was largely peripheral to Goodman, and the secondary sources, including the passage of the Miller book you mentioned, refer to his work as a whole rather than singling out CM. I can add a brief blurb on Legacy based on a retrospective source, even though I find it unnecessary, but I would never have threatened this review (or one like it) with failing in breadth without being damn sure that the claims I were making were substantiated. I hope you will be more generous in your future interactions and reviews. – czar 19:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- Czar, there's an enormous amount of literature on this subject, particularly after the 1970s, when this movement faded. The sources used to write this article come from its heyday. When you start to use sources from the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s, the legacy and influence will emerge. There's a general overview you can look at from 2002, called Free Schools, Free People: Education and Democracy after the 1960s that makes the case, but more importantly, places the author and his work in the proper context of the FSM. Although there is a lot there, you can get a basic sense of the depth of the subject by starting on page 46 and reading for several pages. Academic Joel Spring referred to Goodman as "a leader in the free-school movement in the 1960s and 1970s" and as a "freeschool advocate".[1] My concern isn't so much with the specifics, but with the lack of a general background, historical context, influence, and legacy in the article. Also, I note that many of the sources refer back to Growing Up Absurd as a supporting work, so perhaps this article should also mention the connection between both works. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- I'm curious how you're substantiating those claims that CM had any influence on the FSM. What sources do you have in mind? – czar 14:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Additional notes
- ^ Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, or the Manual of Style mainpage or subpages of the guides listed, is not required for good articles.
- ^ Either parenthetical references or footnotes can be used for in-line citations, but not both in the same article.
- ^ This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required of featured articles; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics.
- ^ Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of unconstructive editing should be placed on hold.
- ^ Other media, such as video and sound clips, are also covered by this criterion.
- ^ The presence of images is not, in itself, a requirement. However, if images (or other media) with acceptable copyright status are appropriate and readily available, then some such images should be provided.