Talk:Anarchism

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Explanation

I am continuously returning the ancap section to the issues section because that is where the majority of people seemed most comfortable with it before DTC and Thatshot arrived this weekend and began dispupting this article when everyone seemed to finally be approaching some kind of consensus. Also, i am deleting the "Communism" section in the issues section because it was added without discussion and is POV in the sense that the vast majority or worldwide anarchists do not have a philosophical issue with anarcho-communism. Before the ancaps start attacking me with allegations of pinko commie conspiracy i would like to reiterate that i am NOT an anarchist communist but rather an anarchist-without-adjectives. Obviously ancap needs to be included here but in the appropriate place. Additionally, there is the issue of DTC being a suspected sockpuppet, though i don't know that one way or the other. Piece, Blockader 18:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The communism section was added in violation of WP:POINT. The accusations of communist conspiracy are indeed a bit strange, since I am not an anarcho-communist, or communist of any kind, either. I support you in this matter. --AaronS 18:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I just checked up on what you said and in the straw poll above. There were 2 in explicit support for it up there in the individualist section. 1 with implicit support. And 2 against; just you and Aaron. 1 more *for* is me. That makes four people wanting it up there and two against. So you're wrong that the majority of people want it out of the schools section. Also, you have no reason to delete the communism section because it's sourced. Why can't you just stick to the policies and not ignore information that is cited? There is like 10 sources in the article saying anarcho-capitalism is individualist anarchism. Please do not say the majority wants it out of the schools section because it simply isn't true. Most people accept cited information. You should too. That'sHot 18:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the editors who would disagree with you are absent at the moment, probably because of the sorry state of affairs that you and others have introduced. I don't really blame them. The communist section is clearly a violation of WP:POINT, and may very well be a violation of WP:OR, too. --AaronS 18:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I was not referencing the poll from yesterday but rather the consensus of most of the present editors at the end of last week after Cjames and others began cleaning up the layout. I don't know why so many regular editors are absent, Ungovernable, Blah, Cjames, Christfurio, etc, but Aaron is right that they have not been around. Until they get back those present must continue to push this article to a fair and appropriate middle ground despite the POV pushing that is going on. The fact is, whether ancap is a form of anarchism is a debated issue. Some scholars and anarchists lean one way others lean another. that is why it belongs in the issues section rather than after the american indiv section. further, placing a "communism" section in the issues section was done in an inappropriate manner. Blockader 18:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Most scholars regard it as a form of anarchism, individualist anarchism to be precise. Therefore it belongs in the schools of anarchism section under individualist anarchism. If some scholars dispute it then just note that. But to segregate it as if the majority view is that it is not anarchism is POV. The weight of the evidence in scholarly sources says that it is a form of anarchism. The fringe view is that it is not. And no the communism section is not inappropriate. Obviously individualists have issues with communism, with many of them saying it is not a form of anarchism at all but a form of authority over the individual disguised as anarchism. The definitely deserves a section in issues. DTC 18:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Most scholars regard it as a form of anarchism, individualist anarchism to be precise." Tosh, and you know it. "Most scholars ancaps like to quote" perhaps. But bringing 50 cited works to the table is hardly impressive considering the thousands of texts written about anarchism and the fact that most of them are approaching useless. POV of the worst kind. --Marinus 02:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So there is a 5th editor, DTC, that wants it in the schools section. So please stop the claims about us being in violation of consensus. Thank you. That'sHot 19:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So you have a gerrymandered snap poll that is supposed to immidiately contradict a few years of established practice? Hardly good faith, no? --Marinus 03:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

And the strawpoll stood at 2 against and 1 discussion till I cast my (opposing) vote. This is ridiculous. --Marinus 03:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

They are sock puppets, and puppet master took a vacation. :-) -- Vision Thing -- 19:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Taking a break

I'm taking a break from these articles. There is far too much sock puppetry going on. Those involved might find it amusing, for whatever reason, or might believe that they're spreading the Truth, but it's actually quite silly. I've never understood why so many evangelicals were attracted to Wikipedia, as if people came to Wikipedia to do scholarly research, rather than the leisurely perusal of articles for their own enjoyment. But, people are strange. I had my fun with this article, but I feel no need to engage in the kinds of games that some people here, and their sock puppets, seem so fond of. Engaging in arguments for the sake of argument, or to keep track of points, and engaging in hot-headed Internet disputes, are two things that I grew out of at the end of high school. --AaronS 19:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

In your break, you might want to leaf through the stuff about personal attacks and assuming good faith. MrVoluntarist 19:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Snark, snark, snark. So full of venom. Get a life, child. Is that what you're talking about? --AaronS 19:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, please. MrVoluntarist 19:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope I don't find you peeping in the window at me one of these days. Your obsession with me, although flattering, is a bit creepy at times. I can't believe that, after all of these years, you still haven't gotten over my intellectual lambasting of you on ASC. I mean, really, I was in high school at the time -- it couldn't have been that bad. --AaronS 19:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of sockpuppetry, is Blockaddr taking a break too? DTC 19:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm done too, but I am certianly no ones sock puppet. If these ancaps want to POV push on here than so be it. They are just sad that they don't have a real movement or extant community. It really makes me sad but after Intangible threatened me with 3RR despite his cronies having violated the same rule ten-fold in the same time span (i assume he didn't threaten them) I really don't think i care to associate with certian people editing this page. Luckily, we have a powerful and diverse collective in Atlanta that will continue to do real and important work from a multitude of anarchist perspectives. I'm gonna go make some whiskey now, Blockader 19:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Good luck reversing the ever progressing trend toward complete global capitalism. And please have a drink on me. DTC 19:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

DTC, respect WP:AGF, WP:CIV and WP:NPA, please. --Marinus 03:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL. Yes, my adorable little acolyte. And you're quite right, Blockader and I are sock puppets. I commute to Boston from Atlanta every day. It's a beautiful drive. --AaronS 19:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Lopsided article

Now now, children, play nice. Not to be rude but this is one of the most lopsided articles I've seen yet on Wikipedia. Absolutely leaning so far over to one side it may topple over onto the article directly to the left of it. Maybe we could clean it up by balancing it out a bit. Whiskey Rebellion 04:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Lopsided in what fashion? It's actually pretty good - certainly worth keeping/salvaging --Marinus 05:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a note, although I'm technically taking a break, I am sticking around for sock puppet patrol *cough*thewolfstar*cough*. --AaronS 13:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Marinus, this article is certainly worth keeping. I was not implying otherwise. Please know this. It just seems like there is so much Russian and European and not so much of Africa, South America or North America. Whiskey Rebellion 23:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Latin-American gap especially is a major shortcoming, but I think that we should try to devolve articles - Anarchism in the United States is an example of the application of a theory being removed from a discussion of the theory (and a fine article, barring the usual AnCap vandalism) --Marinus 00:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey Aaron, I see you've come down with a cough too! How surprising. *cough*sockpuppet*cough*[1] Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 23:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by AnCap vandalism, Marinus? Do you mean AnCaps vandalised this article? Whiskey Rebellion 02:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty aggressive and conscious POV massaging - vandalism, in my books. Usually done by ill-lettered young men who badly slight the AnCap movement by their presence and unwillingness to have another POV exist. --Marinus 05:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, everybody, I have an idea. Let's have a section on Thomas Jefferson. --AaronS 03:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hows Thomas Jefferson got anything to do directly with anarchisme? I dont know, and i dont know much about him. Do you have some kind of source?--Fjulle 19:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes

Would it be too much to ask that moving sections around be done in a separate edit from content changes? 68.98.158.194 04:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that this is a controversial article, and that you show some knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes, could you care to log on? Anonymous edits are suspicious. If you can study the talk page it won't be too much trouble to create an account, would it? --Marinus 05:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Something I've been meaning to bring up

Many scholars have identified anarcho-capitalism as a form of individualist anarchism [...] Er, aren't there a lot of scholars who also say it isn't a form of anarchism? I don't happen to have a long list at this point, but perhaps we should do the same thing and have references for anarchists and scholars who refute it's place within anarchism. Someone willing to work on that? Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 08:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There are just as many scholars who say that communist anarchism is not a type of anarchism. It's a downright contradiction in terms. And yet the dominant pov in this article is communist and collectivist. It's really a shame to destroy a wonderful concept like anarchism by confusing it with communism. Is there some reason for this domination and control? Whiskey Rebellion 09:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there some reason why you refuse to just stop coming back? We all know your a sock. Anyways, seeing as encarta seems to think anarcho-communism is a form of anarchism and devotes a lot of their article on anarchism to it, I think it's safe to say it's a recognized form of anarchism by neutral sources. The online American Encarta doesn't mention an-cap in the anarchism page, and the three page long online UK encarta gives it one sentence. You clearly have the minority viewpoint that few people will agree with (and just because you can create a bunch of sockpuppets doesn't solve that). Stop wasting our time. And I find it ironic that you supposedly like Woody Guthrie, you know he's a socialist, right? Sorta like how you really liked the socialist George Orwell? [2]. Let me guess, you don't buy that Guthrie was a socialist, huh? Oh, and I know that that was your bush/hitler image. I don't have to like you to like the image. Now go get yourself blocked already so we can continue working on this page without a bunch of sockpuppets. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 09:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Was that long and considerably nasty rant directed at me, The Ungovernable Force? First, I don't have any idea what you are talking about. Second, I don't have any idea what you are talking about. Third, you should work on your anger and the way you attack people. You call me a sock. I've been called all sorts of things, but a sock wasn't one of them. Perhaps you are a set of drawers or an old sweatshirt. I'm wasting your time? Apologies for that! I know that Woody Guthrie was a socialist and what has that got to do with anything? And how did George Orwell get into the picture? I didn't edit the George Orwell article. What 'bush/hitler image' are you talking about? The Ungovernable Force, could it be that you are losing your grip on reality? Please don't attack me like this again. I have read the policies and personal attacks are expressly forbidden. Maybe you need to take a break from wiki for a while and then come back. Then you could possibly learn to talk to people with more civility. Please be nice. Thank you. Whiskey Rebellion 18:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you're a brand new user who has never once been banned from wikipedia before. I guess it's just a coincidence that you have the exact same pov as that person, and seem to have all the characteristics of that user. My bad, I guess I should have just given you the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I almost put this template on your talk page. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings new user. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 21:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Whiskey may be a sockpuppet or he may not. I have no clue. But lets not assume that everyone that is pro-anarcho-capitalism or anti-communism is a sockpuppet. I have my suspects of anti anarcho-capitalists editors here that are sockpuppets. DTC 21:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There are many anarcho-capitalist editors who many of us get along quite well with. I only accuse people who act like sock puppets of being sock puppets. Namely, you, That's Hot, and Thewolfstar, here. Hi, guys. --AaronS 23:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is (almost) everybody, (almost) all the time, talking more about who is or who is not a sockpuppet? Its almost always the same problem when people stop arguing reasonable in exchange for pointing out why you shouldnt trust one or the other. When its this far out, its allready to far out. You cannot save a discussion going against fallacies, when it first happens you might as well stop arguing.

What about a strategy which is more coherent than all this voting about this or that, meaning you really cant vote when anybody can make a alias on a different IP adress or behind a proxy and vote twice or thrice og whatever. What about fx getting somebody from the outside of the contest to look through the arguments and the sources? After all the majority might just as well be wrong as the minority, especially when it comes to pointing out why you cant trust someone or the other.--Fjulle 19:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that claims about sockpuppets are strategic. If you don't like what someone puts in an article, you claim he's a sockpuppet, hope others believe you, and agree with you that since he's a sockpuppet the information he put in the article should be deleted. It's kind of a shady way to play the game. It shouldn't matter whether anyone is a sockpuppet. Don't blame the messenger. The information stands on its own merit. DTC 01:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of us, who edit Wikipedia for fun and not to foment a revolution of pimply-faced libertarians, don't treat it like a competition, so strategy isn't really necessary. Regardless, as I and others have already pointed out, there are many self-avowed anarcho-capitalists who are great editors, and who have not had trouble editing this article. There is no "game" for most of us. We have real lives with real and much more interesting games. Calm down your inflammatory rhetoric; all this talk of conspiracy is just plain silly. --AaronS 02:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Communism section

Kill with fire. Neutral scholarly sources always recognize anarcho-communism as a form of anarchism. This is an extreme minority viewpoint. Besides, you guys keep saying that since neutral scholars say an-cap is anarcho capitalism, it should stay in, and you keep getting rid of the fact that most collectivists dispute it's place. How is this different (other than the fact that it's a minority view point, which gives it even less of a reason to be here)? Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 20:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anybody getting rid of the fact that collectivist anarchists dispute that it's a form of anarchism? It's right there in the Capitalism section under the Communism section. DTC 20:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice that, but it keeps getting removed from the anarcho-capitalism section. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 20:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Further, the fact that "communism" keeps being placed above capitalism in the issues section is ridiculous. far more scholars/anarchists dispute ancap than ancom. even if it were alphabetical it would still be after ancap. blatant POV pushing if you ask me. thats why i keep removing it. Blockader 23:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ungovernable Force said, "Neutral scholarly sources always recognize anarcho-communism as a form of anarchism. ". Which neutral sources say this? Can you list some of them here? Thanks. Whiskey Rebellion 23:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've read several (probably between 4 and 6) encyclopedia articles on anarchism (including an in depth political philosphies encyclopedia) and they all give a lot of consideration of anarcho-communism. The online US encarta article even says that anarchism is "basically anticapitalist". The online UK encarta article has a long section on anarcho-communism and has one sentence on an-cap within the Indiv anarch section, and that one sentence makes it sound like it might not really be anarchism. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 23:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for answering my question. I have some thoughts on these answers, however, too. One thing is that encyclopedias are not the only source of information. And another thing. How come you refer to Encarta? Encarta is product of Microsoft. Microsoft is a huge corporation. And Microsoft is a very big supporter of George W. Bush. From your page, (I looked, please forgive me if impertinent), you don't like Bush. I don't understand. Why would you look to Encarta and Microsoft for information about anything never mind anarchism? Most likely they hate and fear anarchism. Whiskey Rebellion 00:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Christ Allmighty. Are you trying to get into WP:BJAODN. (I'm pretty sure I broke a WP policy somewhere with this comment, but bloody hell). I frankly don't think Encarta has enough agency to make stuff up. Why don't you find me a neutral source that gives half the coverage to AnCap that is given here, hmm? How about Encyclopedia Brittanica? Or Colliers, or Collins? Oh, wait, they don't... --Marinus 02:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well, why would I look to what you say either, you hate and fear anarchism as well (since anarchism as far as I'm concerned requires the abolition of capitalism)? Encarta is viewed as a relatively neutral source, far more neutral than any you've presented. Of course, nothing is compeletely neutral, but most people would recognize an encyclopdedia as relatively neutral and scholarly. And of course they're not the only source of information. What do you want me to do, find something written by an anarchist? I could do that in an instant, but then you'd say "Oh, well they're a collectivist, of course they'd say that". This really isn't the issue though. The issue is that relatively neutral sources have always included anarcho-communism as a major part of anarchism. And I don't think Microsoft is a huge fan of the government considering all the trouble the courts have caused them (I could of course be wrong). This seems unimportant though. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 02:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You are ridiculous WhiskeyRebellion, or should i say Lingeron? When you are corrected based on facts you merely make insidious and inflammatory statements that make everyone here question your Good Faith. Blockader 16:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive40

I archived the talk page (at a mere 221kb) to Talk:Anarchism/Archive40. It seemed a good time to do so. --Marinus 03:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. FYI, I'm putting some of the more recent threads back on this page, since some of these issues may not be resolved. It's usually best to not archive a discussion that may still be active, and only archive the stuff that is higher up and long dead. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 03:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

A proposed guideline to capitalism and an-cap in Anarchism article

Now, Wikipedia is a consensus based operation. We need to work towards an agreement. There are a number of us (through the years) who are unenthusiastic about anarcho-capitalism's status within this article. We consider an-cap to be a fringe movement, as the overwhelming weight of the anarchist tradition shows. I myself believe that to believe anarchism can be non-socialistic shows a lack of knowledge of and appreciation for history - "anarchism" was synonymous with "socialism" up until one K Marx changed the rules relatively recently in political history. But that is my view - Wikipedia isn't my soapbox, nor is it for those who believe that the anarcho-capitalist movement is of (at least) equal bearing to the centuries of social anarchism (with its revolutions, mass movements and people for whom martyrism was more extreme than lacking a university tenancy). But, most importantly, Wikipedia is not Speaker's Corner - no arguments as to the merits of philosophies will take place here. No pamphleteering, no attacks on opposing theories. Each movement shall have it's WPspace where the details of it can be expounded at length, including its differences with other theories. I am sick to my back teeth of the disruptive POV pushing of this one minority. The anarcho-capitalism page doesn't suffer the type of disruption and outright vandalism this one does - that's because the rest of the anarchist tradition are perfectly happy to keep our disputes to the proper channels (an-cap's place in the Anarchism portal and especially its treatment in this article). I want this to end, I want a meaningful standard to be set which certainly won't make all of us happy but will serve Wikipedia in its interest as a storehouse for knowledge which allows the reader to come to his own conclusions without our clear statement of the facts in hand. So I prupose:

• Anarcho-capitalism being given its place in "Schools of Anarchist Thought". It will be given a mention on par with that of the American individualist anarchists - I think this is immensely generous but the an-cap community is well-represented here on WP and I think it's justified. However, the contentious nature of an-cap's place as "anarchist" school must be mentioned, as well as how it markedly stands distinct from the rest of the tradition, being only linked with the American individualists, who are removed from the individualists (Stirner, Proudhon, Godwin, etc, all fervent anti-capitalists). It is because these things are facts and any other representation is a misrepresentation and a distortion of POV.
• That mention being the only one of anarcho-capitalism in the article. That is where the individual particular schools are mentioned and the interested reader guided towards more fuller explanations of the theory. AnCap claims to be one of those schools, it obviously has some influence on WP so it must be humoured, but its influence on the majority trend in anarchism approaches zero - its marginal views will not be repeated. If all these differences must be crammed into their "Schools of Anarchist Thought" entry, making that section a bit larger than might be fair, so be it.
• Both "communism" and "capitalism" be addresses in "Issues in anarchism" - the anarcho-capitalists are not the only people in the broader anarchist tradition to distrust communism. However, because of the overwhelming view amongst anarchists, rejection of capitalism must clearly be shown as the more popular view in anarchism.

What is attempted through this scheme is to give anarcho-capitalism a fair representation in the Anarchism article, allowing those who might be interersted in it to view the extensive and well-written anarcho-capitalism article, but not to let an-cap hijack the article as it has continuously since the very beginning. I am not as naїve as to believe that Anarchism will suddenly become a stable article, but we need a more-or-less consensual agreement - a peace-treaty of sorts - to allow this article and this section of Wikipedia to function.

Until we have reached some sort of agreement, I ask that edits be held at a minimum. I've tweaked the article into a format I believe is provisionally broadly acceptable to all parties, except people who love quotefarming.

Sincerely yours, --Marinus 03:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

First off, thank you for taking the time to think up and, more importantly, lay-out a plan. Although I disagree that they should be given space merely because they are here on wikipedia, I do agree with your proposal. It is fair and balanced (lol, am I the only one who is thinking about Faux News?). I agree that including a section on why anarchists dislike state socialism/communism is a good idea--my main problem with the communism section was that it was clearly pushing a minority view within anarchism that doesn't have much place (as you agree). I also don't care if an-cap is placed in the schools, but it has to be very, very, very, very clear that most anarchists reject it's claim of being a form of anarchism, and as I stated above, we should find more neutral scholarly sources that also dispute it's place within the tradition, and make a big long reference like they did. And actually, the one small thing I might disagree with, is that it be given a section on par with American indiv anarchism. I think it should be a sub-sub-section of the American indiv anarchism sub-section. Other than that, great proposal. I back it 100%. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 04:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It can't be very clear? It must be very, very, very, clear? I don't think it's even a little clear. Whiskey Rebellion 04:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC) Oh, sorry, I forgot the last very. It has to be very, very, very, very clear. Whiskey Rebellion 04:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it must be very, very, very, very clear. Possibly even very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very clear. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 04:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. --Marinus 03:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Lol. (o) _ (o) Whiskey Rebellion 06:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I interpret your silence on the actual issues as consent to this proposal? Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 06:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Bunchofgrapes suggested that I stay away from this article because of all the controversy, but in all politeness I suppose I must answer. I don't care for it at all. It's still the same attitude that is reflected in the article itself. This was just stated by the proposer (Marianus, I think), that anarchism is socialism except that it isn't state socialism or something to that effect. I don't agree to that. The an-caps don't agree to that. The individualists don't agree to that. I don't think that giving the anti-communist anarchists a piddly little bit somewhere is fair at all. I'm sorry. This is how I feel. I'm not a capitalist or a communist anarchist and don't put any qualifications on my brand of anarchy. Anarchism or the concept of it has been around for a long, long time. Since the Greeks came up with it. It came long before the concept of socialism came. History shows, if anything, that freedom cannot exist with any sort of pressure from any authority, corporate or communist. On the other hand there have been other types of anrachy like in the U.S. or Africa that are barely mentioned here. As long as a group of editors hold control of the editing of anarchism nothing will ever change. Policy says not to do this. I just read it yesterday. Whiskey Rebellion 07:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

First, when did the Greeks come up with Anarchism? I ask in all seriousness because i have never heard that claim before. The word root may be greek but i thought that was a later development. Second, my problem with the "communism" section is that it references anarcho-communism as much as it references state communism, which are entirely different. "Some individualist anarchists, especially in the American tradition, have historically denied that anarcho-communism can be truly anarchistic. They believe that it is inherenrly authoritarian by submitting the individual to the authority of the community. Proudhon opposed the state-socialist Louis Blanc for these reasons; other notable exponents of this view are Benjamin Tucker as well as the anarcho-capitalists." What does Proudhon's rejection of a state socialist have to do with ancom? I would agree to this compromise though I don't think these ancaps will ever be satisfied till the entire idea of anarchism is coopted for their own purposes. I truly believe that a balanced portrayal of historical and contemporary anarchism would include ancap in the issues section but i guess balanced portrayal is too much to hope for here. Blockader 16:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I put in the reference to Proudhon, and I did so out of fairness: Proudhon was very, very suspicious of communism, and while the movement (the Blancists, who were an important movement till Marxism swallowed all state-socialists up whole) was state-socialist (and Proudhon had more than one problem with them) the language he uses doesn't differentiate between state-socialism and communism as an an-com would describe it. I think the book I read this in was (Richard Vernon's?) The Life and Thought of PJ Proudhon, but that was some years ago. The Anarchist FAQ also mentions this fact. --Marinus 03:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the word root is Greek points to the ancient concept of it. If people invented the word than the thoughts were present. There is a reference to Christian anarchism which shows that anarchist Christians believe that Jesus was an anarchist, and in the origins section it says something about Taoism, which is older yet than Christianity. I agree that the concept of anarchist communism is different than state communism. Obviously there is a difference between state capitalism and anarchist capitalism. It's looking more and more to me that this confusion from both sides is where the problem lies. I don't see the ancaps or individualists asking for anything more than an equal representation in this article. That equal representation is what is being denied. Then there is another thing that is not being allowed in here: The accurate history and development of anarchism. Freedom as a reality -- not just a concept -- began in the United States. The early U.S. anarchists and rebels are crucial to anarchism as a whole. Their beliefs and their bravery speak for themselves. And yet, astoundingly, they are not even mentioned in this article!!! I would love to see a balanced representation. Has that been suggested? If so that would be great.

Whiskey Rebellion

17:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, Lingeron. The problem with equal representation is that historically and contemporarily, anarchist movements and ideas as well as anarchists themselves have almost overwhelmingly been anti-capitalist. If you don't understand this then you do not have a clear picture of history/reality. I believe your concept of "balanced" is more than slightly skewed. Did the Greeks invent the word anarchism? I honestly thought that some scholar termed the phrase long after the fall of Hellinic civilization due to the fact that Greek and Latin were the primiry languages of scholars until last century. I don't know though. Lingeron, did freedom begin in the United States for slaves? For black people until 40 years ago? For American Indians? For women? Whose freedom are you referring to? If you are going to look at anarchism in a society then there are plenty of indigenous/aboriginal ones that come far closer to actual anarchist tenants then the United States.Blockader 18:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That's actually tenets, if anybody cares. EbonyTotem 22:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Marinus' suggestion sounds good to me. DTC 20:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What happened to "Only minor edits"? Also, if you are going to cut and paste from an older version, make sure that the result is still readable. Especially if that version is objectionable. --Marinus 03:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

My question refers to your edits on "Communism" in the "Issues in Anarchism" section.

Not sure what your complaint is. You changed the line that was sourced, but what you changed it to the source didn't say. The source said Proudhon opposed both state communism and utopian communism. ALso, you also said that the individualist anarchists opposed state communism but the sources were about them denying that anarcho-communism was a true form of anarchism. DTC 01:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The 'anarcho'-capitalism section under individualist anarchism doesn't mention the fact that it is usually not seen as anarchist, so I'm going to add this sentence: "Anarcho-capitalism, however, is not viewed as an anarchist philosophy by the majority of anarchists." I think that's fair, no? Also, as for the argument above, there are many words that are based on Greek words that weren't invented by the Greeks - take television, for example. 'Tele', meaning far, is added to vision. Yet the word only came about in the last century. Collins' Dictionary gives the etymology of anarchy as "16th Century: from Mediaeval Latin, from Greek, from 'anarkhos' without a ruler, from AN- (without) + 'arkh-' leader, from 'arkhein' to rule." So the word first came into being somewhere between 1500 and 1599, not in the time of the Greeks or Jesus. And, in its first published form (that I know of), 'An Enquiry Concerning Political Justice' by William Godwin, tends toward a socialist-style viewpoint. So the first anarchists (and, oh, 95% or more since then), was socialist/non-capitalist. Supersheep 11:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Godwin is considered closer to individualist anarchism. Godwin said "everything understood by the term co-operation is in some sense an evil." Yes Godwin opposed capitalism but he would also oppose mutualism and the anarchism of the American individualist anarchists if it was around in his time, because he was against markets altogether. He was also against communism because he supported private property. DTC 01:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but the early individualists were still socialists. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 04:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

DTC, have a look at Book 8, Chapter 3 of Political Justice. It seems to me (admittedly from a brief reading) that he is opposed to the then current system of property holding and unequal distribution of property. While he obviously is no Communist, there are certain socialist undertones there. Also, someone reverted out my edits to the an-cap section, including the grammar changes. Please comment on the talk page if you are going to do this, and give a reason. If it's a source thing, say so, and I'll include a source for the Anarchist FAQ; here's the link now, as a matter of fact: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secFcon.html. Of course, seeing as both edits were by IP addresses and not users, I doubt there will be anything here, but I shall add it again. Supersheep 07:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

infoshop.org's Anarchist FAQ is not an reliable source, it is highly pov propaganda written by socialist, please provide an reliable scholarly source, or i'll revert again.203.84.69.69 09:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually Plato uses the concept you might use the word anarchy as a name for in his discussion of the four types of degenerate states (degenerate compered to his utopia). This is taken from "The Classical Mind" written by W.T.Jones and stands like this: "These then, and such as these, are the features of a democracy, an agreeable form of anarchy with plenty of variety and an equality of a peculiar kind for equals and unequals alike. ...". Maybe what youre talking about is the english word anarchy compared to the greek anarkhos. I would say its to words, one concept, and the concept was used as well as the greek word who names it, also by others than Plato in the old greek city states. Ill go check my sources for that last statement, but iam worried its only available in danish without me looking away from my own books, so it might take some time. --Fjulle 08:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

An English dictionary is going to cite the first year it can find a word being used in English. Nobody's claiming that the English word anarchy is a different word from the French anarchie or the Latin anarchia or the Greek αναρχία. It's all the same word, and it goes back to ancient Greek. The words anarchist and anarchism are different from the word anarchy, were created more recently, and were not used with a connotation of approval, to describe anything positive, until the early 19th century, a few years after the word socialism was created. The assertion, “Anarchism or the concept of it has been around for a long, long time. Since the Greeks came up with it. It came long before the concept of socialism came,” is false. EbonyTotem 10:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually i was responding to the statement made by Supersheep not Whiskey Rebellion. Next time ill make sure its explicit which statement iam refering to. My point was that anarkhos isnt an word like television thats later been put together. On top of that Antiphon also used the term (http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Antiphon.html). --Fjulle 13:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Questions?

Is the Catholic Workers Movement actually anarchist? It wasn't clear from their site but i don't know much about them otherwise.

Shouldn't there be some mention of the IWW in the anarcho-syndicalism section? While the group is not explicitly/officially an-synd, many or most of its members have been and are.

Maybe a short section on anarchism without adjectives? Don't know where it would go though or i would just write it and cite de cleyre.

Thats it. Blockader 18:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC) [] Error: {{Lang}}: no text (help)

Is everybody in agreement? I'll leave another week for comment, then we can move to make this suggestion "policy" for this article. --Marinus 02:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Blockader's comments

Blockader said, "Lingeron, did freedom begin in the United States for slaves? For black people until 40 years ago? For American Indians? For women? Whose freedom are you referring to? If you are going to look at anarchism in a society then there are plenty of indigenous/aboriginal ones that come far closer to actual anarchist tenants then the United States."

I don't know what Lingeron means. Is that a Wikipedia term that I need to learn? As for the rest. NO. There was and still is no freedom for American Indians. As horrendous as this is, there probably never will be. Not in this plain of reality anyway. I don't personally believe there is freedom for blacks yet as I don't believe in the phony tricks our (US) government pulls. The prison industrial complex is testimony to this. Europe, the Dutch, French, etc, engaged heavily in the slave trade and slavery can be traced to the middle east, so what's your point on slavery? Women fought hard for equal rights and gained many of them. This is still a world run by filthy rich white men. (The whole world is run like this, not just the U.S.) At the same time, the American Revolution, though in many ways was a Bourguois revolution, was also fought by and for regular poor men who were royally pissed when they were badly abused by the very same wealthy (bastards) who promised them freedom. There was a second American revolution. There were also many actual statesmen who backed up and supported the rights of the every day schmuck like you and me. The American revolution was an unheard of event at the time. And although things were far from perfect a seed of freedom was planted, both here, and all over the world. Among other things, Blockader, you who accuse me of not understanding history, you might check this out:

"The Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage was the first American abolition society, formed April 14, 1775, in Philadelphia, primarily by Quakers who had a strong religious objection. It ceased to operate during the Revolution and the British occupation of Philadelphia; it was reorganized in 1784, with Benjamin Franklin as first president[4]. Benjamin Rush was a leader, as were many Quakers. African Slavery in America was one of the earliest calls for abolition; it appeared in the Pennsylvania Magazine and some scholars believe Thomas Paine wrote it." Abolitionism#Abolitionism_in_United_States Abolitionism#Notable_opponents_of_slavery

I do understand history. It is perhaps you who does not understand it. Please don't insult me. Thank you.

Whiskey Rebellion

21:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read Kropotkin's Mutual Aid and not respond to people highlighting questionable things in what you say with ill-informed baiting. Assume good faith, after all. --Marinus 03:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? Ill-formed baiting? I believe it was Blockader who was doing the baiting and again, don't insult me and call what I say "ill-informed." I was told that I didn't understand history. Perhaps you should read American history. I tell you what. I'll read Kropotkin's Mutual Aid if you read some American history. Specifically, some American history that wasn't written by a communist. Yes and thanks for the suggestion of assuming good faith. You might do that also.

Why not just respond to what I say rather than trying to skirt around the issue with what actually is baiting?

Whiskey Rebellion

13:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea why you are ranting like you are and I wish you'd stop. I don't see an issue to address. --Marinus 02:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalism and individualist anarchism

DTC/RJII, you can't just delete my references and then claim that there is a consensus among academics as to whether or not anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism. Scholars, as well as anarchists, disagree. As such, this article should not present the matter as if there is a consensus, and anarcho-capitalism certainly does not belong in the individualist anarchism section. It belongs under the issues section because, well, it's an issue in anarchism. Namely, the issue is: can anarcho-capitalism be considered anarchist; if so, is it a part of the anarchist tradition? To pretend that there is no debate surrounding these questions is quite preposterous. Further, simply reverting my edits (and deleting relevant information that had nothing to do with moving the section) without any discussion is childish, counterproductive, and disruptive. There's no point to it, because your reverts will simply be reverted back in due time. In the end, what we are presented with is a silly edit war, or game, that has really lost its novelty for most of us. While I understand that edit warring was one of RJII's preferred methods of editing (he said so himself), a great many of us do not consider Wikipedia to be a battleground. --AaronS 16:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC) For the time being, I've tagged the section with a {{POV-section}} tag for the above reasons. --AaronS 16:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There is little debate among scholars on the matter. The consensus of scholars agree that it is one of several forms of anarchism. The story is different among anarchists because a large number of anarchists are opposed to capitalism, but even then they are defining capitalism in terms of a state. They think capitalism and the state are inseperable. So that really isnt even a criticism of anarcho-capitalism. Anarcho-capitalism is not capitalism as most anti-capitalist anarchists define it. With that said though, I have no problem with you mentioning that anarcho-communists say that ancap is not a form of anarchism. BUt scholarly opinion in what matters the most, and most scholars say that it is. DTC 17:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Most scholars don't have an opinion of the matter, because they do not even mention anarcho-capitalism in their assessment of anarchism, or only mention it as a side note. Those who do disagree. There is no consensus. --AaronS 17:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Not true at all. Any scholarly overview of anarchism mentions anarcho-capitalism. Of course you're not going to find it mentioned in much in texts written prior to say 1975 because it was still very new then. DTC 17:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Tosh and double-tosh. Cease and desist your POV malarky with all due speed. Please. --Marinus 02:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Please verify source

It says at the end of the anarcho-capitalism section: "It is not, however, viewed as an anarchist philosophy by the majority of anarchists, with anarcho-capitalists differing from individualist anarchists in the latter's strong mistrust of capitalism and advocacy for mutualism." The source given is "Colin Ward. Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2004". Where in that does it say that? What is the quote? DTC 17:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The quote is:

"[Murray Rothbard is] the most aware of the actual anarchist tradition among the anarcho-capitalist apologists... [he is] aware of a tradition, but he is singularly unaware of the old proverb that freedom for the pike means death for the minnow... [individualist anarchists] differed from free-market liberals in their absolute mistrust of American capitalism, and in their emphasis on mutualism... [and were] busy social inventors exploring the potential of autonomy[, whereas] American 'libertarians'... inventiveness seems to be limited to providing an ideology for untrammelled market capitalism."

-AaronS 17:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

So "[individualist anarchists]" was put there by you? What does the author actually put there? DTC 18:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Read it yourself and find out - it's easily verifiable. I can give you a dozen references that say the same thing, but you dismiss them all as POV because it was written by socialists. Almost all anarchists are socialists, which you deny because you don't think it's sourced, and you reject almost all sources on anarchism because it's written by socialists? Not very clear-thinking, if you ask me.--Marinus 02:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

If you think that's my position, then you're wrong. I welcome sources from socialists. In fact, several of the sources I presented saying that anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism are from anti-capitalists. What I have a problem with it sourcing the famous anarchists themselves, unless they're writing in a scholarly context. For instance, Murray Rothbard shouldn't be accepted as a source for the article claiming that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism. Likewise, Benjamin Tucker shouldn't be accepted as a source for the article claiming that anarcho-communism is not a true form of anarchism. If a credentialed scholar just happens to be an anti-capitalist, I have no problem with using him as a source. I provided Ulrike Heider as a source who says "as much as I am opposed to anarcho-capitalism.."; he is able to be objective and says that anarcho-capitalism is a modern form of individualist anarchism. An anti-capitalist scholar saying that, I think, holds more wait than would a pro-capitalist scholar. If there are anti-capitalist scholars that say ancap is not anarchism, great. Add them to the article. But, of course, it might hold more weight if you found a pro-capitalist scholar that said it's not a form of anarchism. I supply and welcome scholarly sources from anti and pro capitalists. DTC 02:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

He is also just one source, one you are privileging. You can find 20 sources that agree with him, I can find 200 that don't. I can also, and this is critical, quote the majority consensus opinion amongst the community of practicing anarchists, which, BTW, this article is supposed to represent. You have at times explicitely revealed your POV imbalance, in talk pages and (heaven forbid) inside the articles itself - I don't particularily care for what you consider POV. --Marinus 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course you can quote the majority opinion from anarchists on what they think, if you can survey them all. But, you can't use the opinion from anarchists on whether a particular form of anarchism is true anarchism or not. You see, the majority of anarchists have no scholarly credibility. They're just people on street, or on the internet. Sources has to be reliable. This opinions presented in this article should not be held hostage to the POV of any particular set of anarchists, but to scholarly opinion. It is Wikipedia policy. DTC 02:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

While scholars, removed from the tradition (and, of course, without any personal politics at all) have their eyes open to the way things are? Are you privy to some revealed truth hidden from those who have studied the matter the closest? And if you say that Kropotkin or Bookchin or Chomsky have no scholarly credibility, you are obviously a twit. --Marinus 03:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Style in this article

Keeping with Wikipedia's conception of good style, can we avoid he-says-she-says discussion inside the article? Claims and counterclaims and the like. We are here to provide clear, neutral, concise information as much as possible, not a blow-for-blow. I know that we're probably to a man political trainspotters, but Wikipedia isn't where we indulge in discussing the minutae of personal disagreements among theorists. Quotefarms are a definite no-no: they are not only ugly but also subtly influence the POV of the article. We should strive to not have a single quote in the article proper, especially not where there are a near-infinite number of opinions on anarchism, within the movement and without. Most of them are terrible. I'd also appreciate it if we can leave blatantly POV (and false) statements concerning consensus out of the article. Thanks --Marinus 02:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The Anarchist FAQ as a source

I myself consider the Anarchist FAQ (wrongly linked with Infoshop - they only host it, it's older than and independent from Infoshop) an excellent source - beautifully referenced, mind-bogglingly comprehensive, well-argued, even-handed, etc. It also, and this is of great importance, nicely documents the majority consensus opinion amongst anarchists. It isn't the work of a single expert but the collective creation of a group of practicing anarchists, with input from hundreds and the approval of thousands upon thousands of anarchists. Reasons we shouldn't just rewrite the core of the FAQ here are: (1)it's too long (2)it would deprive us of hours of delightful arguments (3) it is polemical (or, as we say on Wikipedia, POV). So I say editors should be welcome to use it as a reference without taking over the polemical tone (for instance, it wouldn't be very nice of us to mirror the FAQs view on anarcho-capitalism, which can be summarised as "kill with fire, salt the earth it stood on, burn effigies of it forever more, use as a bogeyman to scare generations of children into collective action") but we should feel welcome to refer to its quite impressive arguments (and reams of citations) when making statements in this article. Any disagreement? --Marinus 02:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Anyone can write a FAQ and claim to be an expert on anarchism. That's like a group of us getting together and writing a Anarchist FAQ and posting it on the web and then referencing it here. It would have no credibility. Wikipedia has a policy for reliable sources. DTC 02:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand how the Anarchist FAQ came about. I recommend you take a look at it, or even just my above comment, again. Your comment, I shouldn't need to say, is simply false, the first sentence a platitude, the second and third plainly false and the fourth a non-sequitor. --Marinus 02:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I know how it came about. People on the internet arguing over anarcho-capitalism. The managers of the FAQ transcribe the arguments from forums and such over to the FAQ and put their own two cents in. It's not valid as a reliable source at all. DTC 02:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not? It's referenced to the roof. I don't deny that it's polemic. I question your ability to evaluate evidence. --Marinus 03:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)