Talk:Health effects of electronic cigarettes: Difference between revisions

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AwiarN (talk) 15:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

reverted QG's dry-puff unverified tag

This quote from McNeill(2015) [the reference given] verifies it - page 77:

The EC was puffed by the puffing machine at a higher power and longer puff duration than vapers normally use. It is therefore possible that the e-liquid was overheated to the extent that it was releasing novel thermal degradation chemicals. Such overheating can happen during vaping when the e-liquid level is low or the power too high for a given EC coil or puff duration. Vapers call this phenomenon ‘dry puff’ and it is instantly detected due to a distinctive harsh and acrid taste (it is detected by vapers, but not by puffing machines) [139]. This poses no danger to either experienced or novice vapers, because dry puffs are aversive and are avoided rather than inhaled.

Thus i reverted it[1]--Kim D. Petersen 17:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the verification failed tag was for the other name "dry hit", then i suggest that we add this from Farsalinos' blog (he did the research that is referred to in McNeill)[2] which refers to both usages "dry puff" and "dry hit" --Kim D. Petersen 17:18, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did not tag dry puff. The source does not verify or "dry hit" on page 77 or any other page. I oppose using the blog. QuackGuru (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Conference source

Clapp, P.; Lavrich, K. (May 23, 2018). The E-Cigarette Flavoring Cinnamaldehyde Suppresses Mitochondrial Function and Transiently Impairs Cilia Beat Frequency in Human Bronchial Epithelial Cells. American Thoracic Society 2018 International Conference. San Diego, CA.

The tags were deleted from a source that fails WP:MEDRS. QuackGuru (talk) 23:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the source is non-MEDRS compliant, and it is a primary source. As a conference paper it is probably not even peer-reviewed. So remove is recommended. --Kim D. Petersen 22:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The citation fails MEDRS. Hence, the tag added. QuackGuru (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive discussion about Formaldehyde in lead, that is unbalanced wrt WEIGHT.

This section:

Normal usage of e-cigarettes,^[1] and reduced voltage (3.0 V^[2]) devices generate very low levels of formaldehyde.^[3] Later-generation e-cigarettes used with higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde than compared to smoking.^[4]^{[failed verification]}^{[Notes 1]} A 2015 review found that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.^[5] A 2015 Public Health England (PHE) report found that high levels of formaldehyde only occurred in overheated "dry-puffing".^[6] Users detect the "dry puff" or "dry hit" and avoid it, and they concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."^[7] However, e-cigarette users may "learn" to overcome the unpleasant taste due to elevated aldehyde formation, when the nicotine craving is high enough.^[8] E-cigarette users who use devices that contain nicotine are exposed to its potentially harmful effects.^[2] Nicotine is associated with cardiovascular disease, potential birth defects, and poisoning.^[9] In vitro studies of nicotine have associated it with cancer, but carcinogenicity has not been demonstrated in vivo.^[9] There is inadequate research to demonstrate that nicotine is associated with cancer in humans.^[10] The risk is probably low from the inhalation of propylene glycol and glycerin.^[11] No information is available on the long-term effects of the inhalation of flavors.^[12]

This material should be weaved into the formaldehyde section of the article, where not all of it is present. And we should probably summarize the formaldehyde issue somewhat like this:

Formaldehyde is found in the aerosol but usually at a order of magnitude 1-3 fold lower than regular cigarettes^[4]. Under some scenarios it is generated at levels higher than cigarettes^[4], and there is some controversy over the real world likelihood of this happening^[13].

At the moment it is dominating the lead, and is given excessive WP:WEIGHT. --Kim D. Petersen 13:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)edited to add the references that QG is stating as missing in discussion below --Kim D. Petersen 00:03, 1 August 2018 (UTC) [reply]

It was claimed the content FV. Verification was provided. Then a different tag was added. Other reviews verify similar content. For example, see "Running at a higher power (temperature) not only increases nicotine delivery, but also increases the amount of formaldehyde and other aldehydes that are naturally produced by heating up propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin and other toxins produced in the e-cigarette aerosol."[3] The content stating "A 2015 review found that these levels..." is a SYN violation. The undue weight is the content that is a SYN violation. The proposal on the talk page is unsourced. No sources were presented for "Formaldehyde is found in the aerosol but usually at a order of magnitude 1-3 fold lower than regular cigarettes. Under some scenarios it is generated at levels higher than cigarettes, and there is some controversy over the real world likelihood of this happening."[4] The lead is currently too short, and is not giving enough WP:WEIGHT for 4 paragraphs. QuackGuru (talk) 18:13, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My argument as stated is not that formaldehyde shouldn't be discussed in the article. Just that it is presented with undue weight (which is not the same as WP:SYN!) and to a detail level that doesn't fit the WP:LEDE. It is not even a summary of the subsection in the article that discusses this!

As for the 1-3 fold - how about you look at the review that we are quoting here. It states this. This is the start of the discussion, not the end, nor was the proposed summary of the section stated as anything other than a proposal that is 100% verifiable via the sources that we already have on formaldehyde. Have you read up on it? My summary is very fair, very balanced and does fit with the preponderence of reviews existing in the literature about this subject. --Kim D. Petersen 23:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Wilder 2016, p. 82.
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference Cheng2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference Bekki2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c Orellana-Barrios, Menfil A.; Payne, Drew; Mulkey, Zachary; Nugent, Kenneth (2015). "Electronic cigarettes-a narrative review for clinicians". The American Journal of Medicine. 128: 674–81. doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2015.01.033. ISSN 0002-9343. PMID 25731134.
^ Polosa, R; Campagna, D; Caponnetto, P (September 2015). "What to advise to respiratory patients intending to use electronic cigarettes". Discovery medicine. 20 (109): 155–61. PMID 26463097.
^ McNeill 2015, p. 77.
^ McNeill 2015, p. 77-78.
^ Cite error: The named reference Rowell2015 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference Jerry2015 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference SGUS2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference Hajek2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference Bertholon2013 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Abrams, David B.; Glasser, Allison M.; Pearson, Jennifer L.; Villanti, Andrea C.; Collins, Lauren K.; Niaura, Raymond S. (2018). "Health Harm Minimization and Tobacco Control: Reframing Societal Views of Nicotine Use to Rapidly Save Lives". Annual Review of Public. 39: 193–213. doi:10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-013849. PMID 29323611.

Cite error: There are <ref group=Notes> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=Notes}} template (see the help page).

[FOOTNOTEWilder201682-1] Wilder 2016, p. 82.

[Cheng2014-2] Cite error: The named reference Cheng2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Bekki2014-3] Cite error: The named reference Bekki2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Orellana-Barrios2015-4] Orellana-Barrios, Menfil A.; Payne, Drew; Mulkey, Zachary; Nugent, Kenneth (2015). "Electronic cigarettes-a narrative review for clinicians". The American Journal of Medicine. 128: 674–81. doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2015.01.033. ISSN 0002-9343. PMID 25731134.

[PolosaCampagna2015-6] Polosa, R; Campagna, D; Caponnetto, P (September 2015). "What to advise to respiratory patients intending to use electronic cigarettes". Discovery medicine. 20 (109): 155–61. PMID 26463097.

[FOOTNOTEMcNeill201577-7] McNeill 2015, p. 77.

[FOOTNOTEMcNeill201577-78-8] McNeill 2015, p. 77-78.

[Rowell2015-9] Cite error: The named reference Rowell2015 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Jerry2015-10] Cite error: The named reference Jerry2015 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[SGUS2014-11] Cite error: The named reference SGUS2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Hajek2014-12] Cite error: The named reference Hajek2014 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Bertholon2013-13] Cite error: The named reference Bertholon2013 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[AbramsGlasser2018-14] Abrams, David B.; Glasser, Allison M.; Pearson, Jennifer L.; Villanti, Andrea C.; Collins, Lauren K.; Niaura, Raymond S. (2018). "Health Harm Minimization and Tobacco Control: Reframing Societal Views of Nicotine Use to Rapidly Save Lives". Annual Review of Public. 39: 193–213. doi:10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-013849. PMID 29323611.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[Notes 1]

[5]

[6]

[7]

[8]

[9]

[10]

[11]

[12]

[13]

@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 :Normal usage of e-cigarettes,{{Sfn|Wilder|2016|p=82}} and reduced voltage (3.0&nbsp;V<ref name="Cheng2014" />) devices generate very low levels of [[formaldehyde]].<ref name="Bekki2014" /> Later-generation e-cigarettes used with higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde than compared to smoking.<ref name="Orellana-Barrios2015">{{cite journal|last1=Orellana-Barrios|first1=Menfil A.|last2=Payne|first2=Drew|last3=Mulkey|first3=Zachary|last4=Nugent|first4=Kenneth|year=2015|title=Electronic cigarettes-a narrative review for clinicians|journal=The American Journal of Medicine|volume=128|pages=674–81|doi=10.1016/j.amjmed.2015.01.033|issn=0002-9343|pmid=25731134}}</ref>{{FV|the review notes that formaldehyde is a factor at least lower - but that a _single_ study found it higher - WEIGHT here is inappropriate}}{{#tag:ref | citing "Carbonyl compounds in electronic cigarette vapors-effects of nicotine solvent and battery output voltage" by Kosmider.|group="Notes"}} A 2015 review found that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.<ref name="PolosaCampagna2015">{{cite journal|last1=Polosa|first1=R|last2=Campagna|first2=D|last3=Caponnetto|first3=P|title=What to advise to respiratory patients intending to use electronic cigarettes.|journal=Discovery medicine|date=September 2015|volume=20|issue=109|pages=155–61|pmid=26463097}}</ref> A 2015 [[Public Health England]] (PHE) report found that high levels of formaldehyde only occurred in overheated "dry-puffing".{{Sfn|McNeill|2015|p=77}} Users detect the "dry puff" or "dry hit" and avoid it, and they concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."{{Sfn|McNeill|2015|p=77-78}} However, e-cigarette users may "learn" to overcome the unpleasant taste due to elevated [[aldehyde]] formation, when the nicotine craving is high enough.<ref name="Rowell2015" /> E-cigarette users who use devices that contain nicotine are exposed to its potentially harmful effects.<ref name="Cheng2014" /> Nicotine is associated with cardiovascular disease, potential birth defects, and poisoning.<ref name="Jerry2015" /> ''[[In vitro]]'' studies of nicotine have associated it with cancer, but carcinogenicity has not been demonstrated ''[[in vivo]]''.<ref name="Jerry2015" /> There is inadequate research to demonstrate that nicotine is associated with cancer in humans.<ref name="SGUS2014" /> The risk is probably low from the inhalation of propylene glycol and glycerin.<ref name="Hajek2014" /> No information is available on the long-term effects of the inhalation of flavors.<ref name="Bertholon2013" />
-{{ref-talk}}
 This material should be weaved into the formaldehyde section of the article, where not all of it is present. And we should probably summarize the formaldehyde issue somewhat like this:
-:Formaldehyde is found in the aerosol but usually at a order of magnitude 1-3 fold lower than regular cigarettes. Under some scenarios it is generated at levels higher than cigarettes, and there is some controversy over the real world likelihood of this happening.
+:Formaldehyde is found in the aerosol but usually at a order of magnitude 1-3 fold lower than regular cigarettes<ref name=Orellana-Barrios2015/>. Under some scenarios it is generated at levels higher than cigarettes<ref name=Orellana-Barrios2015/>, and there is some controversy over the real world likelihood of this happening<ref name=AbramsGlasser2018>{{cite journal|last1=Abrams|first1=David B.|last2=Glasser|first2=Allison M.|last3=Pearson|first3=Jennifer L.|last4=Villanti|first4=Andrea C.|last5=Collins|first5=Lauren K.|last6=Niaura|first6=Raymond S.|year=2018|journal=Annual Review of Public|title=Health Harm Minimization and Tobacco Control: Reframing Societal Views of Nicotine Use to Rapidly Save Lives|volume=39|pages=193-213|doi=10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-013849|pmid=29323611}}</ref>.
-At the moment it is dominating the lead, and is given excessive [[WP:WEIGHT]]. --[[user:KimDabelsteinPetersen|Kim D. Petersen]] 13:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
+At the moment it is dominating the lead, and is given excessive [[WP:WEIGHT]]. --[[user:KimDabelsteinPetersen|Kim D. Petersen]] 13:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)<small>edited to add the references that QG is stating as missing in discussion below --[[user:KimDabelsteinPetersen|Kim D. Petersen]] 00:03, 1 August 2018 (UTC) </small>
 :It was claimed the content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes&type=revision&diff=852802835&oldid=846597259 FV]. Verification was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes&type=revision&diff=852821549&oldid=852805162 provided]. Then a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes&type=revision&diff=852829043&oldid=852821549 different tag] was added. Other reviews verify similar content. For example, see "Running at a higher power (temperature) not only increases nicotine delivery, but also increases the amount of formaldehyde and other aldehydes that are naturally produced by heating up propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin and other toxins produced in the e-cigarette aerosol."[https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-publhealth-040617-013757] The content stating "A 2015 review found that these levels..." is a SYN violation. The undue weight is the content that is a SYN violation. The proposal on the talk page is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASafety_of_electronic_cigarettes&type=revision&diff=852806938&oldid=843982363 unsourced]. No sources were presented for "Formaldehyde is found in the aerosol but usually at a order of magnitude 1-3 fold lower than regular cigarettes. Under some scenarios it is generated at levels higher than cigarettes, and there is some controversy over the real world likelihood of this happening."[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASafety_of_electronic_cigarettes&type=revision&diff=852806938&oldid=843982363] The lead is currently too short, and is not giving enough [[WP:WEIGHT]] for 4 paragraphs. [[User:QuackGuru|<b style="color: #e34234;">QuackGuru</b>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color: #B02200;">talk</span>]]) 18:13, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 ::My argument as stated is not that formaldehyde shouldn't be discussed in the article. Just that it is presented with [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] (which is ''not'' the same as [[WP:SYN]]!) and to a detail level that doesn't fit the [[WP:LEDE]]. It is not even a [[WP:SUMMARY|summary]] of the subsection ''in'' the article that discusses this!
 ::As for the 1-3 fold - how about you look at the review that we are quoting here. It states this. This is the start of the discussion, not the end, nor was the proposed summary of the section stated as anything other than a proposal that is 100% verifiable via the sources that we already have on formaldehyde. Have you read up on it? My summary is very fair, very balanced and does fit with the [[WP:WEIGHT|preponderence of reviews existing in the literature]] about this subject. --[[user:KimDabelsteinPetersen|Kim D. Petersen]] 23:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
+----
+{{ref-talk}}