Talk:Kraków grosz

On Casimir, III or I ?

If it was introduced in the reign of Casimir III, why does the Latin text refer to "KAZIMIRVS PRIMUS"? -- Securiger 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

On the title

Regarding the move to "Krakau Groschen", see Talk:Prague grosh/Talk:Prager Groschen for evidence for this name in English. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       11:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Please note this is English, not German, Wikipedia. 1 Google hit for Krakau Groschen (not even used in German webspace!), 217 for Kraków Grosh. If we want an even more popular name, consider 917 hits for 'grosz krakowski...', used also by Britannica.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, you are in a hole which you have created yourself by introducing your original research term into wikipedia, and thus the internet, as the Google hits are mirrors of your Original Research. Contratulations for this success, courtesy of wikipedia - but stop digging now! Polish wikipedia has an article pl:Grosz krakowski that produces Google hits in Polish, which are utter meaningless for English wikipedia. The proper German name is "Krakauer Groschen" with 15 hits like moneypedia, but this not relevant either. Britannica does not know your invented term. It may cite the Polish term in italics once, but it does not elaborate on the coin itself. As written on your talk page, which you have chosen to ignore, American Numismatic Society's curatorial database of coins [1] does not know your invented term. It lists some grosz, mainly from the 20th century, not the 14th century coin in question, which is clearly refered to as "Krakau Groschen" in 61 instances:

• Record contains: grosh No records in the ANS database match your search
• Record contains: grosze Search returned 2 records
• Record contains: grosssi Search returned 5 records
• Record contains: grossus Search returned 13 records
• Record contains: groszy Search returned 20 records
• Record contains: grosch Search returned 15 records (truncated, not singular of Groschen)
• Record contains: grossi Search returned 44 records
• Record contains: grosz Search returned 81 records
• Record contains: groat Search returned 330 records
• Record contains: groschen Search returned 2908 records

• Record contains: kraków No records in the ANS database match your search
• Record contains: krakowski No records in the ANS database match your search
• Record contains: cracov No records in the ANS database match your search.
• Record contains: cracovienses No records in the ANS database match your search
• Record contains: cracoviensis No records in the ANS database match your search
• Record contains: krakow Search returned 9 records.
• Record contains: cracow Search returned 12 records
• Record contains: krakau Search returned 61 records
• Record contains: krakau Record contains: groschen Search returned 61 records

Piotrus, stop beating the dead horse you spawned to push your Polish POV, and move/change the article back to the name that is used by English experts, which is "Krakau Groschen" [2] (database returns results in lower case). This name may be similar, but it is not identical to the German name, which hopefully may appease Anti-German sentiment. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       23:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Matthead, I find it impossible to understand how can you argue that we should use a name that has only one google hit. If you think that the fact that ANZ uzes the words 'Krakau' and 'groschen' in separate articles (because you fail to show they use the name 'Krakau groschen' anywhere) is enough to convince anybody that we should adopt that name, I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. As I wrote above, I'd rather think we should consider adopting the name which can be clearly seen in the publications, like Briannica. As for your accusatuions of anti-German sentiment, please note that for such personal attacks you may find yourself reported at WP:PAIN: please stick to the argument instead of offending others and attributing some sentiments (or anti-sentiments) to them.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Krakau Groschen used in English language Numismatic

http://data.numismatics.org/cgi-bin/objsearch?kw=Krakau+Groschen&header=simple&dep=any&fld=any&orderby=objs.ce1%2Cobjs.ce2%2Cobjs.m&format=fullims — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.31.82 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Books in English

• Trade and Urban Development in Poland: An Economic Geography of Cracow, from its Origins to 1795, by Francis W. Carter, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-412390, p.38 & 67:

  ...adapted using its design to form the silver 'Cracow Grossus' (Grosz). Poland's first...

  In 1338 the large Cracow grosz (Grossi Cracovienses) was first minted, with...

• The Price of Freedom: a history of East Central Europe from the Middle Ages to the present, by Piotr Stefan Wandycz, Second edition, Routledge, 2001, ISBN 0-415-25491-4, p.40:

  ...the Cracow grossus was a Polish counterpart of the Czech coin...

• Guide to Museums and Collections in Poland, by Stanisław Lorentz, Interpress Publishers, 1974, (Translation of Przewodnik po muzeach i zbiorach w Polsce), p.151:

  ...a half-thaler coin of Sigismund III, a Cracow grosz and many others...

Best regards, Evv 04:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

And Britannica used Kraków grosz. This is another one of those cases where English literature has not decided how to call something, and we can have several sources for every variant. We may want to check Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Currency and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Article_titles. Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation is interesting and would advocate grosz krakowski, I guess. Not sure what to do with Prague and generic grosh, though.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Off-topic comment: English books appear to use "Prague groschen", and my gut feeling is that the generic one should be at "Groschen" too - but I may be too used to the German mentions of it... - Evv 06:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there appears to be no prevalent English usage. I mentioned the books above as the only three examples I have found so far. Anyway, rules and statistics aside, I really like Britannica's choice on this one :-) which is, after all, an English rendition of grosz krakowski. Personally, for the moment Kraków grosz is my favourite. - I will read that guideline now (thanks for pointing me there :-) - Best regards, Evv 05:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The guideline says: Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation (e.g., "Czech koruna", not "Czech crown"). This means no "Koruna česká" either :-)

In our case, it would be "Cracow or Kraków grosz", not "Cracow or Kraków groschen/grosz/grosh/whatever", and not "Grosz krakowski" either. - Best regards, Evv 05:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

---

There is no such thing as grosh. It is either Groschen or, or grosz, or grossus, but no such thing as grosh.

Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language, College Edition shows Groschen, the coin, like we explained on wiki or gross-LateLatin grossus=thick, dense etc. no grosh at all. Labbas 9 January 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.31.82 (talk • contribs) 07:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Therefore we would seem to reach the conclusion that Kraków grosz is the name we should be using?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)