User talk:SkyWriter

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  --Flex (talk|contribs) 20:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello again

I got your message on my talk page. Glad to have you on-board! If you have any questions or concerns that I can help you with, feel free to leave me another message on my talk page. Cheers! --Flex (talk|contribs) 19:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW, what are you interests and areas of expertise? --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Interests and areas of expertise

Hi Flex – thanks for your note. Interests and areas of expertise… First the last: I have a doctorate in theology, and am a writer and I work as an engineer. I’m interested in engineering resources and writing theory, and am especially interested in theology and textual criticism relating to Judaism and Christianity. I’m currently finishing a book related to New Testament textual criticism, and am looking forward to doing the same for the Hebrew Bible, after vacationing in some fiction for a year.

Thanks! Perhaps you'd consider adding that to your user page. Since I've got your ear, we have a question of sourcing over at Bruce Metzger that you might help us resolve. With a doctorate and an interest in texual criticism, I don't doubt that you're familiar to with his work. In particular, we're looking for documentation and details on Metzger's view of biblical inerrancy and infallibility (the article currently says he denies the former [because of grammatical aberrancies and so forth, which most conservatives intentionally overlook in their definitions] but accepts the latter). Could you come up with a source or at least point us in the right direction? You could post a response at Talk:Bruce_Metzger#Original_research. --Flex (talk|contribs) 15:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see User_talk:Flex#Metzger. Cheers! --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks with the help

I just noted your changes to my contributions to the Critical Text article. I am very impressed. You rewrote it in a very pleasing and concise manner. Thanks.--Rclose 23:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Text basis

Hello. Any chance you could leave a brief note at User talk:Alastair Haines regarding how the % deviation from NA27 is defined? Shalom. Alastair Haines 14:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tim, thanks so much for a prompt reply. As I suspected, your provision of this statistic is based on all the responsible factors it needs to be. Naturally, there are still some subjective judgements, and a reader's ability to interpret the actual percentage needs a clear definition of what counts as 100%; for example, percentage of text-critical decisions, or percentage of all words in the NT. Presumably it is the former, given the size of the percentages.

As statistics like these are immensely helpful if compiled and presented responsibly, I thought I'd know of them unless they were recent scholastic contributions. Congratulations on worthwhile and exacting research! Godspeed to your publisher!

My only comment is that "vertical exaggeration" is very helpful for Christian readers. What I mean is, comparison of text-critical choices may just help KJV afficionados realize what they do to themselves. However, for non-Christians to see even 5% on an impossibly good translation could lead cynics to scoff at Christian scholarship.

I'm sure you've made the right choice on this too. I just wish to stress the importance of making the definition of the statistic as easy for a reader to interpret as is realistically possible.

What do you think of this page?

Shalom. Alastair Haines 04:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tim, thanks again, please send me the article, I will read it with great interest. I bought Comfort and Barrett to help me make my own judgements on text-critical issues, though nearly everything I know was taught to me by reading Metzger's various contributions. Alastair Haines 16:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

New Testament manuscripts project

Hi again Tim,

I thought I'd put some work into getting standard text-critical information up onto Wiki. So far I'm mainly working on structure and tools like templates and categories. It's rather fun to be able to link to German and Italian Wiki articles on various things, but rather sad these articles are not in English yet. List of New Testament uncials will give you a feel for where things are at. Still a lot of work to go.

Cheers, alastair Alastair Haines 13:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Bible metrics

What is the source for the measures of conformity to the Nestle-Aland text and "paraphrase rate"? The latter, in particular, has a very unscientific air about it. These info boxes are widespread, but there is no attribution given to reliable sources. Both numbers are useless for the encyclopedia without attribution to a reliable source. And there is no discussion defining these terms at Template talk:Bible translation infobox. Wareh 21:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

After writing the above, I have seen the discussion at User_talk:Alastair_Haines/Archive_2#Definition_of_Text_Deviations. But this does nothing for my concerns. Even if the book has "hit Amazon," that most certainly does not make it a reliable source whose information should appear, cited or uncited, in all of our Bible translation pages. The way this data was being promoted before it was even published forces me to ask what personal connection the various Wikipedia editors (you, Alastair Haines) have to the book. The standard for a reliable source is more like endorsement in book reviews in respected journals. These numbers seem to amount to a recent publishing venture, not a standard or respected measure of anything. And the recent edits seem to reflect an ignorance of significant figures. Wareh 21:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. It doesn't yet make total sense to me or answer all my concerns. For example, the attribution issue remains; it is essential that these figures appear on no pages without a clear reference to the reliable source from which they are drawn. The treatment of significant figures still appears absurd.

But basically my main concern is still that, despite appearing in infoboxes (which suggest that fairly universally agreed-upon facts are being provided), it is hard on the face of it to believe that most scholars would not deride the idea that these numbers provide useful or meaningful information. By the way, if both numbers apply only to the New Testament, then the format in which "paraphrase rate" is presented is highly misleading, since most of these Bibles include an Old Testament.

(1) Deviation rate. On the fundamental level, what evidence can you provide that a list of "14992 translatable differences between the Greek, Latin, and Syriac text-forms" (especially, that label, "translatable") commands agreement among scholars? How does this number compare to the number of variants appearing in the apparatus of the UBS edition (not because this is a perfect inventory, but because it is at least a widely recognized set of cases)? Then, the numbers themselves appear ridiculous. Are you telling me that, in cases where variant readings exist, Bibles like NRSV and NJB demonstrably choose a different reading than that printed in Nestle-Aland in 18-28% or around 2700-4200 cases? Any such list would be easy to refute, and I'm sure it would come as a surprise to the translators who worked on those versions; how do you reconcile their point of view with the view given by these numbers? Or does the number mean something else, in which it is inscrutable and useless to the encyclopedia reader?

(2) Paraphrase rate. I include the redlink to indicate that this will only be meaningful if the concept is defined, and that it only belongs in the infobox if the concept has a widely accepted definition which we can write up in an encyclopedia article. I don't know what to say about your definition, "do not agree completely with ANY text type," except that, while the numbers may have been crunched according to a consistent algorithm, this notion of disagreement itself is quite far from neutrality and objectivity. While the word-for-word and dynamic equivalence approaches to translation are widely recognized, I need better evidence that this effort to measure the "translation type" quantitatively (to the hundredth of a percentage point, no less) is anything but quackery. I know plenty enough Greek to know that the English meaning conveyed word-by-word and sentence-by-sentence in the NJB New Testament follows a definitely identifiable Greek text a lot more than 73% of the time. I'm not saying a rational discussant can't identify paraphrase, but your formula relating paraphrase to text-critical issues is confused. What is really being quantified? I imagine it is something like "word-for-wordness, whether that provides a correct translation or not."

These numbers have all the signs of being pseudoscience, measures conceived to broadcast prejudices that assume a dubious notion of "textual fidelity," and I believe they're only in the encyclopedia because they've fallen through the cracks. It seems a no-brainer to expunge them from all the Bible articles. If, in fact, they are worthy of note in the encyclopedia, the first steps to be taken by anyone who wants to include them are obvious:

1. Write articles on the Bible metrics themselves, providing not only an exposition of their meaning in their creators' own terms, with footnotes, but also evidence that they are a notable subject for an encyclopedia, because they have received reviews and discussion in reliable journals, books, etc.
2. Accept that, until or unless these numbers become a truly accepted standard by some significant range of scholars, they should only be reported in the article on the Bible metrics. I don't see any reason why such an article, if it passes the notability test, could not include comprehensive charts giving the measures calculated by various authorities for various translations. (If "paraphrase rates" are reported to the .01%, they will be laughed at, though.)

I'll wait for your response before initiating the needed cleanup, but I hope you can see why I feel little doubt that the community of Wikipedia editors, if this is brought to their attention, will be able to figure out how little these numbers belong where they are now being presented.

Wareh 17:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Linking to http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html is not particularly helpful, since, if we accept it completely (which is a big if, since it's just a web page), it provides no basis for calculating a "paraphrase rate," and there is no evidence that the data has been "reverse engineered" (as you say) soundly to produce the "deviation rate." The number itself is still unattributed, and you're not linking to a list of the allegedly thousands of departures from NA in modern New Testament translations. Wareh 18:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not in a hurry to change anything, and I don't want to delete without understanding. I think you've seen that my invitation to expound these methods in their own article (which will fly or not according to the encyclopedia's guidelines) reflects a basic inclusiveness on my part. I just don't want readers to draw unwarranted inferences from these infoboxes. In your very long response, I still don't feel you've helped me with the specific points that are unclear to me. Are you telling me that the transformation of the bible-researcher.com data into these numbers is your own work? If so, I'm very uncomfortable with what you'd then be telling me: "It's original research, but I invite you to take over all my methods and reproduce my original research." This would be clearly contrary to Wikipedia policy. Moreover, it's the validity of the methods that's in question, not whether calculation errors have been made. (Can you answer directly: what is the most reliable source that vouches for the validity of these methods?) If the actual numbers being reported in infoboxes cannot be sourced, then they are OR and that's the end of the discussion, right? Finally, if I were to follow your methods and reproduce the "paraphrase rate" numbers, even if I were in total agreement about the sequence (in other words, I looked at the ordered list of paraphrase rates and felt it accurately described some quality of the translations), that would not address the question of whether it is meaningful as a number. And please address specifically my complaint above that your formulation, "do not agree completely with ANY text type," confuses textual-basis issues with translation-style issues. As to the "deviation rate," I gather you're inviting me to undertake the compilation of a list on my own of, say, all the cases (out of 995 alleged total) where the NRSV in a sample NT passage is "firm agreement with a different text form" than the Nestle-Aland text. Surely the minimum you can do to help me out is to point me to where someone has already done this! If there's no such reference to provide, then how on earth can other editors accept its inclusion? Heck, even if it is your original research, I'd still like to see a sample list of supposed NA-deviations in an NRSV passage. P.S. Feel free to respond wherever you like, but it would be easier to follow if it stayed all here where it began. Wareh 19:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Just in case it is a useful compromise. Consider how at least the "translation type" box could reflect wider consensus labeling. That is, use labels like "dynamic equivalence" or whatever, and base them on the comparative numbers if you like. But since the numbers are not exactly the point and/or meaningful in this context, wouldn't the right way for a reader to see the number in context be (1) click on wikilink dynamic equivalence, (2) notice in that article that there are Greek New Testament metrics that aim to produce a comparative measure of this quality, (3) visit that article to see a chart of such numbers, with an explanation of their methodology and meaning. This would at least seem to be a more appropriately humble way to try to include that number. Wareh 20:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Compromises are best

Wareh,

I apologize for the rush a few hours ago. I just got home and only have five minutes. But I appreciate your suggestions. Since the numbers do not differ from what is found on other web sites so far as sequencing is concerned, I think your idea of using descriptions is ideal here. Formal Equivalence up to the RSV, then Dynamic Equivalence up to the NLT, etc. I can make those changes tomorrow night and they won't disagree with the numbers or other web sites. If I make that change, will I still need to list all the sources? There are a lot to choose from. As for Alexandrian / Byzantine... perhaps we could discuss the best terms to use.

Also, I found another site that does Textual Variant mapping with translations: http://bible.ovu.edu/terry/tc/index.htm I think it only does ten translations, though. However, you can probably do a quick sample of that site's maps and come up with similar numbers. Unfortunately, MY source is dragging it's heels on final publication, so counting a sample from that site or doing a quick sample from Marlowe are the only current links.

Would you be so kind as to help me find the least disruptive terminology to wrap the data in -- particularly with regard to the NA27 correspondence rate? I also noticed that the Flesch Kincaid readability statistics don't show up on the boxes. This is another set of information that is useful, and anyone with a readability calculater (like the one on Microsoft Word) can reproduce those scores.

Anyhow -- the information is only useful in a format that people can assimilate. The descriptions instead of numbers make sense, and an article on metrics could explain the demarcation points.

I'll make those changes tomorrow.

Best,

Tim 21:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Tim, What you're saying answers some of my concerns. The outstanding issue is still the "deviation rate." Looking at your latest link, I think I finally, maybe, might understand what it is (you never did define it adequately for me). I still might need to have a closer look at the numbers to be sure I can see what's going on here (I think the large number of "translatable differences" is badly misstated; the correct way to count is to say that your latest link covers three translatable differences in Philemon, UBS3c gives four—the number 14992 is an order of magnitude bigger than the plain-English truth!). The questions I'm left with involve (1) labeling/message, (2) motivation. A sample infobox line reads, "28.25% deviation from Nestle-Aland 27th edition (NT)." I just don't believe this is good English for what the statistic communicates. It suggests that the text on which a translation is based is in some meaningful sense 28% discrepant from the text printed as NA. Obviously this isn't true. Yes, I understand, again, to make a sequence, you want as dramatic a spread of agreement rates as possible, so you look at only the UBS-approved translatable variants. A more honest number would be an actual count: "Of the n translatable variants given in the UBS apparatus, this translation chooses a different reading in p cases." I don't want to belabor this point because you seem willing to replace the misleading number with text for infobox purposes anyway. But the larger question here is: what on earth important information do you believe this number conveys? Nestle-Aland, while widely used, is just an edition of the Greek New Testament. I can't imagine that there is any terminology (disruptive or not) to describe the quality of "being exactly like Nestle-Aland in choosing among textual variants, the vast majority of which are trivial in nature." There's no terminology because this is not really meaningful information apart from satisfying a kind of idle curiosity. That's why I ask about motivation... I see you're linking websites that promote textus receptus—fine, and from the textus-receptus-is-the-divinely-guaranteed-word-of-God point of view, I guess "number of times the translators saw fit to chuck out the divinely guaranteed word of God" might be a meaningful thing to count. But you can't reengineer this concept to apply to a modern critical edition such as Nestle-Aland, because it only claims to be a critical edition done by fallible humans (that is the whole point of an apparatus, and the letter grades quoted in your latest link: they indicate that the editors recognize doubt in many cases, and likewise if competent editors doing translations have chosen variants where the UBS editors claim "the text is virtually certain," it means they think the UBS editors are wrong). So, as a starting point on "deviation rate," I'd really just like an explanation of why you think it provides intelligible and encyclopedic information in the first place. Best, Wareh 00:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. There are some hints and traces that someone wanted to use the idea of a "text type." This term doesn't really apply to editions (Greek or English) of the New Testament as much as it applies to single witnesses. A manuscript can show an "Alexandrian text type," "Western," etc., and I suppose if a translation slavishly followed that manuscript, we could say it reflects the same text type. But translations are eclectic mixes of text type, and I don't see how the flavor of that eclecticism can be captured by a meaningful label, let alone quantified. Wareh 00:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The Philemon sample

Wareh,

Thanks for your note. Actually, I only gave you the Marlowe list because it was the one I could find at the time – not because that particular list used the Textus Receptus as a baseline. For Philemon, the Terry list has only three locations with four variants – for a total of seven options. Terry has the ASV disagreeing with the Nestle-Aland 100% of the time in this sample – so of course it is far too limited a sample. Marlowe lists thirty-six optional readings (eighteen times two) and gives the Greek sources, but no translation mapping. The COM NT shows thirty-nine optional readings. Since we had discussed the New Revised Standard, I checked the COM NT notes and found one NRS deviation, in verse 10. For that verse the Nestle-Aland gives two variant readings, but only one is translatable into English: “the chains” in the Nestle-Aland is “my chains” in a variant. The NRS reads “my imprisonment” which would agree with the variant against the Nestle-Aland. Minor? Certainly. Accidental? Possibly. Nevertheless, it does agree with the variant against the Nestle-Aland. Usefulness? I think here’s the heart of what I see you exploring: what is the usefulness? For some kind of attack or disparagement, none at all. That is certainly not my intention at all. And though I personally use the Nestle-Aland, I recognize that it remains a work in progress. The usefulness of the metrics is not in attack, but in sequencing the translations. If a person wants to have a literal translation, the lowest paraphrase rate is the end to start. If they want a readable translation, the Flesch Kincaid numbers show where to start (and I don’t understand why these aren’t showing in the boxes – this is a hugely important metric). If they want to keep up to date with the Nestle-Aland in their personal Bibles, the lowest deviation rate (or highest agreement rate) would be the place to start. That’s all. It’s merely a number derived from a raw count of agreement with the Nestle-Aland as a comparative tool between translations. And to your point regarding the usefulness of looking at as many translatable differences as possible. Compare the Terry results for the ASV with the COM NT results. Terry has the ASV disagree 100% of the time! The COM NT has nineteen Nestle-Aland readings with an additional twenty from Pierpont-Robinson and about a dozen other possible sources. The larger number gives a more realistic list for the ASV: it unambiguously agrees with the Nestle-Aland 13 out of 19 times. For this book alone there is a 68% AGREEMENT with the Nestle-Aland, instead of the 100% DISAGREEMENT from the tiny list that Terry gave. The larger sampling gives better metrics.

I hope this has answered your questions. Now for my question: how best to describe it? How about High Correspondence down through the NRS, and Medium Correspondence down through the TEV? Then, starting with the NLT, DRA, etc.. these could be listed individually. NLT “update to the Living Bible paraphrase.” DRA “High Correspondence to the Clementine Vulgate” etc. Would that be fair? We can’t in good conscience describe them all as high correspondence! Especially below the NET, which describes in it’s own footnotes it’s large number of differences with the Nestle-Aland.

Best,

Tim 00:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

PS -- One caveat. The loose terms "High Correspondence" are left hanging without the actual percentages listed. Someone WILL ping us for the metrics if we list it that way. I know it's good enough for other sites, but Wikipedia should use something quantifiable. It's like "Easy to read" for the REB. What in the world does that mean? That translation has a Flesch Kincaid reading level at the sixth grade. Specifically, 6.0 -- with the RSV at 6.6, etc. Although the numbers may vary slightly between the measurements different people can make based on their sample size, the equations are pretty well established. Also, where does "literal" end and "dynamic equivalent" begin? At least with a number based on a real count is something useful. I think the question is -- do we REALLY want to put subjective descriptions in or objective percentages? I'm okay with the subjective descriptions if you'll back me up later on that methodology (at least until a metrics page is up). Is that fair?

For the demarcations I've proposed, the "Dynamic Equivalent" boundary should begin at the RSV simply because that translation coined the description for itself "as literal as possible, as free as necessary". And since the JNT (Jewish New Testament) is unabashed in it's use of Yiddish and other phrases to give a Jewish feel -- it's a safe spot to begin "paraphrase" at. But, again -- how do you describe the fact that the NJB, TEV, and REB are even more paraphrased without a number?

Tim 01:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

From my knowledge of NJB and REB, "paraphrase" is not a correct description. (I can see it a bit more with REB, but NEB should register as clearly on the not-paraphrase side of the line.) All the more so since you seem to accept that the explicit principles of the translators can be looked to for guidance. I don't know the JNT, but it sounds subjective to say that the use of Yiddish is obviously ("safe spot to begin") paraphrastic. After all, if I choose a Yiddish synonym, that's a question of register and not denotation, which a "paraphrase rate" could not hope to measure accurately. I think to validate the label "paraphrase," you need to show that the versions are scoring close to a translation that explicitly paraphrases, like The Message. And the inclusion of NJB and REB, which anyone using the English terms in their accepted meaning would not characterize as paraphrase, is enough for me to prove that the labels have not been applied as carefully as possible. Wareh 17:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I can BEGIN the paraphrase with Phillips and above, although I have no data on the relationship of the NLT to the Phillips and will be forced to default to "dynamic." However, that leaves the first demarcation in question now. We'll end up calling almost everything a dynamic and practically remove the meaning of the word itself. "If EVERYTHING is true, then NOTHING is true" -- that kind of idea. So, now, where to begin dynamic? Starting with RSV makes no sense at all if we are going to include REB and NJB (not to mention NLT!) in the same category. The RSV and ESV are definitely not the same as the REB and NJB, and to paraphrase your last note: "the inclusion of NJB and REB [in the same category as the RSV and ESV], which anyone using the English terms in their accepted meaning would not characterize as [identical], is enough for me to prove that the labels have not been applied as carefully as possible." Do we add a fourth category, or do we start calling RSV and ESV formal equivalent, even though neither italicize implied words the way formal equivalents routinely do? We almost need 1) formal equivalent: ASV, KJV, NKJ, NAS, NAU; 2) dynamic equivalent: RSV, ESV, etc.; 3) free translation: REB, NLT, etc.; 4) paraphrase: Phillips, the Message, the Living. Suggestions? I'm really open here, believe it or not :-) Tim 18:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

PS -- Wareh, I’ve looked at my information in more detail and compared it to the other site. I’m leaning toward the four category option. How about the following?

Formal Equivalent: KJV, NKJ, ASV, DRA, NAS, NAU

Dynamic Equivalent: MRD, RSV, ESV, NET, HCS, NRS, NAB

Free Translation: NIV, JNT, NJB, TEV, REB, NLT

Paraphrase: Living

My only caveat is that I’ve inverted the sequence of the NAB and the NIV to match the definition of “free” given in the Master’s Seminary analysis that I linked. The NAB has a fraction of a percent higher paraphrase rate than the NIV, and the Master’s Seminary samples were based on limited sections. But, it is close enough to live with for me, if you can also. This has the following advantages: A) it doesn’t jar anyone’s expectations, B) it’s CLOSE to the truth, with the exception of the NAB-NIV sequence, C) we can link the Master’s Seminary page for the “free translations” designation (we won’t need to do so for the others), and D) it allows us to place the NJB and REB in a “non-paraphrase” designation without destroying the meaning of dynamic equivalence. Tim 18:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Looking good

Dear Tim, I'm so glad this discussion has produced the results (through your willingness to do more work) that it has. Looking at the pages you've recently edited (I just looked at NKJV), I see that all categories of information are now plainly labeled in English (with wikilinks, which is very helpful). I really feel this is far preferable, just from the point of view that a widespread infobox should provide readily comprehensible and meaningful information. Each individual item now makes sense to me. So thanks for your open-mindedness on this, and for your work in improving these boxes. As to the reading level test, I don't have a good technical understanding why it's not displaying (I certainly agree it would be appropriately included). I have no outstanding concerns at all if the newly edited pages I've seen are the standard for what will be added elsewhere. And I'm sincerely sorry if some of my skepticism about the quality and motivation of the information was expressed too severely. (I still have some reservations about the unpublished status of your data set. It would be better if it were both published and had been subject to reviews, etc. But the result of your recent changes is that anyone can decide whether the plain-English label is correct—if they dispute it, I'm sure you'll have something to say about the basis on which the comparisons were made! I hope you do agree with me that, at least at some point down the road, it would be nice to see the information-processing methods treated in good articles on their own, and that that would then provide the natural home for the numbers produced by one or another analysis project. The goal is not to keep the numbers out, but to put them in the right context. I feel that it's the natural order of things to click on a label like "Masoretic/Dead Sea Scrolls," etc., before being confronted with numbers that really do not explain themselves.) Keep up the good work! Wareh 18:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Wareh, thanks for the feedback. It might be a couple of days before I get all the updates finished, but they should be complete this week, including the Old Testament and Apocrypha. I can certainly see how the links to the different categories can help folks who are coming at this cold. If it helps -- I've been approaching all of this from a Quality Engineering angle instead of a theological one. We do a lot of metrics at work, so I tend to hunt down anything with a graph (which is why I prefer Aland's book on the text of the New Testament over Metzger's -- numbers and graphs!).

I think your labels are a little off if the New Jerusalem Bible is a "paraphrase." I feel that in any reasonable scale your label for this version shouldn't go beyond "dynamic equivalence." This is the version whose page happens to be on my watchlist (that's how I got into this whole issue), but I'm sure my judgment would extend to other pages as well. I have no problem going through the NJB sentence by sentence and clause by clause and seeing where everything's coming from in the Hebrew and Greek. Surely "paraphrase" should be reserved for The Message (Bible), or some of the plain-English Bibles that truly use paraphrase more liberally. (Obviously, it would be helpful to have an ordered list of these statistics to have an intelligent conversation about this. You seem to have one—can you produce it here?) Wareh 14:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Wareh -- what I'm looking at has the JNT at a 20% paraphrase rate, the NJB at 23%, the TEV at 27%, the REB at 28%, the NLT at 33%, and the Living Bible at 38%. I had basically divided the descriptions into three categories: formal equivalence, dynamic equivalence, and paraphrase (similar to the article on the link below). Since the RSV defined dynamic equivalence ("as literal as possible, as free as necessary") it seemed a good place for the first division. Since the JNT was designed to put modern Jewish idioms on the NT text (even to the point of using Yiddish expressions) it seemed the right place to begin the second division. That broke the 21 translations I had data on into nearly three even groups. Formal: KJV, NKJ, ASV, DRA, NAS, NAU, and MRD. Dynamic: RSV, ESV, COM (not listed yet), NET, HCS, NRS, NIV, and NAB. Paraphrase: JNT, NJB, TEV, REB, NLT, and TLB. Part of the paraphrase problems the NJB and REB have stem from hybrid "Western" readings that the DRA does to a lesser extent. But I looked at the passages marked as hybrid in the COM NT and they really could not be identified to any text-form on any of my Greek NTs, even including the marginal notes in the Nestle-Aland, which were about the same size as the COM NT notes themselves. I understand that the COM NT is only on prepub right now and we can't use the data. But I don't want to put down something that I know is wrong even for the sake of believability. You're my voice of conscience here -- so I'll ask -- where should I draw the line between paraphrase and dynamic? I found a separate analysis at http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj1d.pdf that consistently shows the Jerusalem Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible within one translation of the Living Bible on their paraphrase scales. Their last scale is sequenced at: ASV, KJV, NKJ, NAS, NAB, RSV, MLB, NIV, TEV, NEB, JB, Phillips, TLB. That's not identical to the COM NT scale, but it's pretty close. If you break that list into thirds, you get dynamic starting at the NAB and paraphrase starting no later than the NEB. Since you're a good indication of how an intelligent reader will react... what's your suggestion? Tim 17:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

PS -- I just found more detail in that article stating what terms they would use for each translation. I can use their terms and link to the article if it helps. It makes me uncomfortable to list JNT as a dynamic, but I'll have to do it in order to make sense of what I'm putting down. Phillip's and the Living and the Message are obvious. The NLT claims to be a translation -- so... that would be the only uncertainty for me. Also, they have the RSV as formal equivalence. If I follow their demarcations, the NIV is the BEGINNING of the dynamic equivalence section. Should I go with it? Tim 17:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I can live with "free translation." Wareh 15:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Reading level

Reading level was added anonymously to Template:Bible translation infobox on March 19, and anonymously removed three days later, with the comment, "It appears someone was adding his one personal opinion about the 'reading level' of various Bibles. I could find no source for this addition, so I reverted all the edits." Obviously, this is somewhat similar to my concern ("Here are a bunch of numbers in the article...where do they come from?!" Since there are many automated tools and standards out there, I don't see the reading level is so objectionable. So feel free to revert the March 22 removal of it from the template. But if you do so, you should at the same time respond to that comment on the talk page. Wareh 14:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Long Reading Level Question

Wareh,

Thanks for the information on the reading levels. I've been examining the reading levels in a number of calculators, and I’ve found a good bit of disagreement between them. Even worse, I’ve found that some web sites, like Zondervan, are posting reading levels for competing translations – and the numbers for their own translation seem to agree with Flesch-Kincaid, while their numbers for other translations seem to agree with Gunning Fog. The problem is that Flesch-Kincaid calculates 75% comprehension and Gunning Fog calculates 100% comprehension. The result skews the competitors’ numbers by several grade levels! Finally – a lot of other websites merely repeat the same numbers that Zondervan shows. In other words, we absolutely cannot in good conscience use the scores that are commonly listed online.

I ended up purchasing a readability analyzer and I’ve run eighteen translations through it so far. When I compare their results for nine different factors, they show a considerable range – but also resolve to an average score. I could conceivably run about thirty English translations through the program with the software I have on hand and put its results up there. But that leaves a question. Which score to use? Flesch Kincaid is the best known, and is also available on Microsoft Word (although there are complaints to Microsoft about a glitch of some kind with their tool). The average scores may be more accurate, but people can’t reproduce them without purchasing specialty software.

Here’s an example:

The American Standard Version has the following results: New Dale-Chall 7-8th grade; Coleman-Liau 7.1 grade; LIX grade 8th grade, RIX 8th grade, Fry 7th grade; Raygor 8th grade; SMOG 10th grade; Gunning Fog 11.9; for an average grade level of 8.4. Those are just the most popular tests. When you include EVERY test they average to 8.6.

Zondervan reports it at 12. That’s at the Gunning Fog level.

Now for the New International Version (Zondervan’s flagship): New Dale-Chall 5-6th grade; Coleman-Liau 6.4 grade; LIX grade 6th grade, RIX 6th grade, Fry 6th grade; Raygor 7th grade; SMOG 9th grade; Gunning Fog 9.1; for an average grade level of 6.8. When you include EVERY test they average to 6.6.

Zondervan reports it at 7.8. That’s a grade and a half below the Gunning Fog.

So, I’m not sure what to do here. I’m leaning toward Flesch Kincaid just because most tools have it. That puts the NIV at 6.7 and the ASV at 9.6. Anyone with a Bible text file and a word processor can double check it for themselves and come up with something close to it. But that raises an entirely different question: does this fall under the category of “independent research?” If so, the only solution will be to leave the readability scores out, or to make it something that fits into both Zondervan’s scores and the real scores – like “NIV, Middle School,” “NLT, Grade School,” “ASV, High School.” Does that seem like a reasonable solution? It would match what people see online, match what they can reproduce, and match what specialty tools would reproduce as well.

Tim 15:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think your instincts are right here—Flesch-Kincaid Readability Test is what most people have heard of, and it is also the easiest to verify. I'd go with it, and offer an explanation of how it is neutrally verifiable at Template talk:Bible translation infobox before restoring it to the infobox. "People can’t reproduce them without purchasing specialty software" is really a fatal objection; if anyone challenges the number, an answer based on original research (including an original synthesis of information from other parties) is not going to survive the challenge.

Did you see my further inquiry above about paraphrase labeling? No hurry, but I realized you might have missed it since I added comments to two parts of the page at the same time. By the way, I have added this page to my watchlist, so I'll definitely see any further questions or comments you leave here. Wareh 16:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Just saw your comment at the template talk page. That's fine with me, although, if it is verifiably the Flesch-Kincaid grade level, that (unlike the percentage numbers I was complaining about above) is a widely understood number, so I would also not object to the use of that number (if it is used, the template should properly label the number and specifically link to the Flesch-Kincaid article). Wareh 16:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Wareh -- Info Boxes

Wareh, I've completed many of the info boxes, keeping the information as broadly verifiable as possible. I still have a few to go, such as the Good News, Living, Phillips, Message. For reading levels I took the variations of what could be found online as the base. So far everything has fallen into the Middle and High School range, but I haven't gotten to the Grade School ones yet, like the CEV, the BBE, and the Children's NIV. Just glancing at the information that's on there... I know a few translations are in preparation and revision status right now. Do we just not mention anything pending, or can we mention it with a link to the source? Tim 15:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, as I just commented above, I can live with "free translation" as a reasonable wording. I think you should avoid giving any information for translations that are unpublished—wait until they're published. Wareh 15:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Navbox for Bible translation articles?

Hiya! Thankyou for your lengthy reply to the question I asked on Talk:English Standard Version.

When I've been reading the Bible translation articles, I keep expecting to see a navbox at the bottom of each article with links to the articles about other major English translations. Have the WikiProject Bible folks thoughts about adding such a thing? If so, I wouldn't mind making a start on one. Alternatively, if it's been discussed and the idea rejected, I won't bother. --stephenw32768^{<user page><talk>} 20:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Stephen -- thanks for your note. Also, I adjusted the English Standard Version into box to match the one for the RSV. I think the navbox is a fantastic idea. But I'm new to this and don't know any of the previous discussions on it. Tim 20:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I've had a quick go at a navbox, you can see a "draft" of it in my sandbox: User:Stephenw32768/Sandbox/Bible navbox. --stephenw32768^{<user page><talk>} 20:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I like it! Keep in mind that I've been getting my own challenges here, though ;-). But it looks harmless and helpful at the same time -- which SHOULD go well on Wiki. Tim 02:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Jason BeDuhn

Not to protract our conversation, but, given the guy is a tenured professor at a major state university, I would like to add that I wouldn't have any problem using his comparisons to rank the NWT towards the literal end in its infobox. What I would oppose is a "compromise" resulting in a label that has no positive value; if there is a serious disagreement with another respectable source, or for the sake of consistency, it would always be better not to provide uncertain data masquerading as a fact. Wareh 00:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I actually ordered his book today to check him out. Some of the information online suggests that his statements regarding the NWT are not accurately presented in some selected quotes. But the subject is one of interest to me, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the man has to say for himself. Some other sources are saying something like "literal of sorts, BUT..." Interestingly, BeDuhn himself apparently believes that the Gospel of John isn't monotheistic! I don't think either the JW or Christian camps like that -- but a secular scholar doesn't bother me in the least (we need more looking at the question). If he really does regard the NWT in the more literal than RSV range, then the Formal Equivalence moniker may apply, and I wouldn't have a problem rating it that way based on his credentials. If you don't mind -- could you give me a little time until his book arrives and I can see what he really has to say? Tim 01:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Take all the time in the world! This is actually quite peripheral for me and has been taking way more time than I have for it, so I'd like to take a break from the subject. Of course you're welcome to be in touch with me, but I think my general ideas are clear enough, so I'm happy to leave it in the hands of you & other Wikipedia editors, unless anything puzzling comes to my attention again. Wareh 01:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

NWT

I reverted your edit about a 'potentially anti-semitic phrase', as it distorts the explicitly stated view of the NWT's publishers. Though your edit was well intentioned, the disuse of their god's name is not considered by them to be 'reverent', and so cannot be expressed as their view.--Jeffro77 08:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Still not sure this works. Their view of the development of not using god's name is specifically stated by them as being Jewish in origin and due to "superstition". Adding "and Christian" detracts from the development aspect. Removing "superstitious" detracts from their view of why. If the statement can be construed as 'anti-semitic' (which I don't really think it is), that is the fault of those holding that view. Perhaps we should actually quote the source material to make it clear that it is their view rather than merely that stated in the Wiki article??--Jeffro77 22:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

NIV

Are you available to help redo the NIV page or rather make it better? Or at least act as an editor for what I write? Thanks! Knight1000 05:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

NIV

I completely agree with you and I will be slow too in my efforts, so no need to feel rushed. The controversy section in the NIV article seems a lot like reading a tabloid you pick up at the food-mart. If you need me to research anything, let me know. Anyone else you want to invite, I think would be great. The more "good" heads, the better this will be. Knight1000 00:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Complete Jewish Bible

"However, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Secular Jews believe that worship of Jesus as a Messiah (or Yeshua as he is referred to in messianic Jewish congregations) and the New Testament are fundamentally incompatible with Jewish theology."

I like the edit you did, however on the part about "Secular Jews", would they really believe that the worship of Jesus as a Messiah be incompatible with Jewish theology? Many that are secular really don't know much about any theology, hence the secular label. I wanted to clarify this with you before changing anything you recently entered to see if you agreed. Thank you and keep up the good work! Knight1000 06:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Secular

"Interestingly enough, although secular Jews don't care very much about Jewish religion, they do care about Jewish identity, and they do agree that Christianity is incompatible with Jewish identity. The best example of this is the secular Jewish state of Israel. According to the Law of Return, any Jew may move there and declare citizenship, unless they have converted to Christianity (Messianics are considered Christians). Although Israel is Jewish in identity, the state itself is secular. I agree that it looks a little peculiar in the sentence, but it's one of those idiosyncracies of Judaism. The problem is that Judaism isn't strictly a religion, per se. It's a nation (even beyond the state, which is only one aspect of thatt identity)."

Thanks for your response! What you have here I believe as well, but not all secular and non-secular Jews believe that Christianity is incompatible with Jewish identity, that's why they were able to become Messianic and this is actually a very growing movement. While Israel's Law of Return is what it is, they have let in many that are Christian from Europe in the past due to the fact conversions on that side of the world were sometimes forced in the past (i.e., Catholic) or abuse in Orthodox Christian areas. Abuse from non-Jewish Christians has probably been somewhat responsible for the feeling that Christianity and Jewish identity aren't compatible.

An "organized" messianic movement is relatively new. The angst over it that is arising is mainly out of rabbinic Judaism which many could argue over it's own legitimacy as an original form of Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism however does have a huge political influence in Israel. I have 5 messianic Jewish congregations in the area where I live that I know about, and they are all pastored by Jews. The Jewish members strictly maintain Jewish identity and some have Israeli citizenship, they go back and forth for whatever business they are doing. I just want to be careful about stereotyping what secular Jews believe because, their beliefs can really be all over the place.

Thanks for listening and check out Michael Brown when you have a chance. He has a couple debates with people on his website that are very interesting, http://www.icnministries.org/ and Jewish Voice is another good one to explore, http://www.jewishvoice.org/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight1000 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Knight, thanks for your notes. Michael Brown is interesting on the Messianic side and Tovia Singer is interesting on the Jewish side. I have some friends who are former pastors who converted to Judaism, and one of them has a radio show -- Gavriel Sanders. He used to be a missionary in Israel and is fluent in Hebrew. The whole divide between "Jewish" and "Christian" does get a little blurry in Messianism, creating some intriguing concerns on both sides. Although Christians are happy about any movement that can successfully evangelize a group, theologians are having trouble with certain formulations of Messianic teaching. The role of the Torah is an obvious one, of course. But the concern that both Jewish and Christian theologians share is the oft repeated idea of "composite unity" in the Godhead. Both sides hold the idea to be heretical and polytheistic. I actually made some updates last night to the Trinity article on that very subject. My personal take is that it's just growing pains. Messianics really haven't developed a coherent theology yet, but neither did any new Christian denomination in the first decades of their existence. The Anabaptists were all over the map during the reformation, covering a spectrum from what today would be called Charismatic, Adventist, Baptist, Free Will Baptist, and Mennonite. Of course -- part of that could also be holdovers from Judaism. Jews aren't that big on theology since it's not as central to Judaism as it is to Christianity. So, why would Messianics be in a rush to define their theology? --> from Teclontz

Messianic theology, I think, will be as consistent as it has been with Gentile Christians; could be all over the map when comparing different groups. However I think they’ve maintained more consistency than Gentile Christian groups, (i.e., Roman Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.). Christian theologians are having trouble with Messianic teachings just like they have trouble with each others theology. Just get a Calvinist and an Arminian in the same room together!

There’s always been, small in number until today, Jewish believers. The internet has allowed groups to connect, communicate and form national and worldwide bodies, whereas before, Jewish believers could remain isolated. My point to raise was the part “Secular Jews believe” which seemed to me, a blanket statement and I think could be taken as ALL “Secular Jews believe” instead of some; were back to some and many. (-: If you've ever listened to Rabbi Singer, in my opinion, I would be cautious about the picture he sometimes paints.

If your curious about Messianic theology, see the added links, http://www.simchayeshua.org/FaithStatement.php and http://messianicbureau.org/statement.htm.

I’ll check out the Trinity section as soon as I can and I look forward to working with you on the NIV section. I feel we may be going through a few discussions like this but I think it’s positive and refining for the information that will end up being posted. Thanks for listening and glad to know you!-- Knight1000 (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

NAS

Thank you for your encouraging answer. Have a nice day! --Kushal^t 16:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

New Religion

I am not sure how you arrived at a possible belief that a new religion is here but I think assumptions you have made could be the reason. Many that would disagree with your application of Tri-Theism here. Also, while this may be the agenda of a few, there is no major majority movement that is trying to fuse two religions together. Thank you for your response.Knight1000 (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Debate is good

No need for apologies! You stated you, “Having been both” then should be aware that One (Echad) is used in a singular sense and in a group/unity sense. Another common example would be, “two become one (echad) flesh”. The word “compound” in unity I think is being used to help explain. And please to not take what I'm writing as a large singular view of any group. I have a feeling you have been exposed to different views on this than what would be the norm for me. Without revealing any personal details on yourself, is there a web-link you could post that would have your views of the trinity concept (for my own personal interest), if you believe in it that is. Knight1000 (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Trinitarian views

I carefully worded my response, I am in agreement with these; Nicene Creed, and mostly in agreement with the Westminster Confession and 1689 Confession. Before “mostly” scares you, I am not with the denominations that use those anymore. Due to being now unaccustomed to their use, I find some of the wording ambiguous when I look at them now in a few areas.

Your response in regards to dimensional vs. compositional was excellent and I would be in agreement with the Trinitarian view rather than the Compounded view. Compounded could be possibly considered tritheism however I don’t think that is what messianic congregations are meaning to convey, however I cannot speak for them. That would be like me be claiming to speak for Christendom. I think however this in an area that gets confused by applying human understanding to a "beings" existence that we really cannot fully comprehend. I base our inability to understand him on Jer. 19:7 and Romans 3:9-20.

If God can be broken apart, echad could be nullified depending on the perspective your viewing from. On one of the links I supplied it stated before the statement I think your referring too "We believe the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel is the one and only true God". Then it stated "We believe that He is Echad, (one) a composite unity expressed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit". I think this is where the dimensional vs. compositional perspective can come into play. I think it might be presumptuous to assume they believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 gods and in my mind, that is clear tritheism.

In CHAPTER II. Of God, and of the Holy Trinity it states...

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html#chap2#chap2

"III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

Using terms like "unity of the Godhead" in my mind could be taken as "composite". Also the part "the Son is eternally begotten of the Father" seems like it could really open up a theological trap door which is why I sometimes do not like confessions and creeds anymore over using scripture or statements w/scripture. I understand the purpose and use for confessions and creeds but sometimes they are, in my opinion, like using a paraphrase Bible. I'm going to stop because this is getting long, however I think I learned something from this exchange. Again, thank you for your time and sharing your perspective with me. Knight1000 (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Complete Jewish Bible Edits

I wasn't sure if I should edit that right away, however since you beat me to it, I'll help sit on what you've done. Hope your day is going well! (-: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight1000 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

New International Version entry

I completed a major update and overhaul in the New International Version entry. Feel free to check my work and make edits/corrections as you see fit. For details on what I did, please see the discussion page for the NIV entry. Thanks! Knight1000 (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms, an article you created, for deletion. Contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated. However, I do not feel that Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and I have explain why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the open discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. — Yavoh 19:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms, an article you created, for deletion. Contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated. However, I do not feel that Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and I have explain why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the open discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. — LisaLiel (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

What happened?

Tim, I don't get it. I was looking back at the "Terminology" subsection of the talk page at Christianity and Judaism, and your views seem to have changed radically over the page couple of weeks. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but no

If you put it back to Messianic again, I'll have to put the AfD tag back. Whether it's your intent or not, you are essentially promoting a fringe group. It is undue weight, and contrary to Wikipedia policy. If you like, we can put this up for arbitration. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

Tim, I'm sorry not only that your well intentioned hard work is being challenged, but also that you have become the focus of the challenge. Several editors have been involved in creating this article and you are not alone and should not be the focus.

You seem to be doing a great job of staying cool despite it all. I agree with Bikinibomb that this AfD seems to be a way to wish away a content dispute and is disruptive to the time consuming work of citing content and completing the article. I am also concerned about the tenor of certain comments - in particular one that attempted to cast aspersions on your conversion. If you feel at any point that the comments to you have crossed the line to incivility (see WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA) and you choose to object, know that others will be there to support you. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 23:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think heavy duty sourcing is the right way to go. I've added some comments to the "Sources" section. In addition, I've added some (cited) comments to the AfD and article talk page in hopes of nailing down the real content of the claim of POV pushing. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 23:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Tim, you might want to particularly focus on sourcing the Messianic column. Some doubts have been raised in the AfD about its sourcability and I'm in no position to help. This isn't the kind of thing that the HUC library has sitting on the shelves. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If things don't work out as desired you can preserve the article and its entire history by requesting that it be moved to a user namespace, and we could also explore finding a project that is willing to host it as one of their subpages. Egfrank (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Technical detail: you might want to move the archived version to a subpage in your user space, so it doesn't clog up your talk page, e.g. something like User:Telcontz/GlossaryArchive. You might also want to clear out the AfD and other templates - otherwise you are nominating your own user page for deletion. If you need help with this, holler. Egfrank (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

An AfD is not a majority vote - in theory at least it should go by the strength of the reasons. Most of the "votes" are just duplicates citing each others reasons. To summarize the reasons they are:

• WP:NOT#DIR- but there is an exception for socially relevant info and I think the intro makes that point - I've also added notes on the AfD to counter those arguments.
• WP:OR - but generally Wikipedia doesn't delete articles under construction unless there is no way the article can ever be sourced. There are some very strong arguments that sourcing is possible and in progress. The only column I think that is vulnerable to the never-can-be-sourced argument is the overlap/neutrality column which is why I suggested we split that part out into a separate list that links back to the table.
• WP:NPOV - seems to have died out - I think my point about what is the pushed squashed that line of reasoning.

So don't just assume it is a lost cause - and even if it does get quashed we can request a move to user space, work on the sourcing and restart the article. Best, Egfrank (talk) 18:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Done for now as in give up or done for now as in done for the evening? Please don't give up - I didn't spend my evening teasing this table apart to have you give up. :-) Egfrank (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Sigh of relief - just saw your edit message and you did mean done for the day. Kol tuv and lilah tov, Egfrank (talk)

No, I don't think we can be any sillier - thanks for the good laugh. I'm having trouble writing this I'm laughing so hard. Actually the only thing the fact check was for was to make sure it was the Messianic view. I've been nosing around terms and there are some pretty interesting redefinitions out there. Mikvah/T'vila=baptism - Mikvah I understand; T'vilah is for dishes. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 03:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know that I'm also finding some of the more polemical additions unsettling - we can't very well ask for respect from other religions if we are not willing to give it back. There are ways to make points about religious boundaries that both truthful and respectful. And there are ways to make Jewish feelings about those who convert out known, also without insulting the integrity of their most likely difficult decisions. Egfrank (talk) 11:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the second paragraph? It got added back by Lisa - I'd leave it be though - we really have a lot more important things to worry about and she's kind of overheating as far as personal comments go - I find the best way to deal with this stuff is just to work past it - I've had my own run ins in the past with such editors - its always a bad sign when someone's strongest argument is "its POV" (and what isn't?). The debates and attacks go on and on and on and become a huge distraction unless you just refuse to take the bait. It is a pity though this is one of the first cells in the table. You might see if she'll agree just to have the row removed entirely - redirecting this material to idolatry didn't seem to do much good. Short of that, I'd focus on other things. Keep up the good work - you are amazing - both in the energy you are applying to this and in your calm persistance. Kol haKavod, Egfrank (talk) 13:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've reported the situation to WP:ANI#Continued problems with editor - disruptive editing. We'll see what happens next. Egfrank (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Update - User:Jeffpw has removed the edit protection tags (in case you were afraid you couldn't edit). My advice: focus on the citations and ignore the editor. Also do not under any circumstance revert her edits again today. I'd stay clear of the cells she has an interest in. (*You* don't want yourself to get blocked with WP:3R or be accused of edit warring). Best, Egfrank (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Ma'am - but no need for formalities - you have the PhD (or is DD?) - I'm just a lowly MSc. Egfrank (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. IZAK (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Request, be briefer in your AfD comments

Hi Teclontz: Pardon my advice. Regarding what is happening now at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms. Normally, Wikipedia AfD pages are not the place to conduct massive debates between parties. You did a good job presenting your views. You should not be writing essay-length responses and retorts to others as that just clogs up the page, makes the whole process messy and hard to follow, and is over-all counter-productive and very annoying to most editors who do not do such things when coming to vote and give their views (usually not more than a few sentences, if that.) I know it is not easy for a writer, but try to be consise and to limit yourself to paragraph-length responses at the most. People coming onto the page can go to the article's talk page to see and join detailed debates. Thanks for giving this your attention. I am placing a similar message on the others who are creating havoc on that page with full-blown essay-length responses rather than more focused replies that would be much more helpful to all concerned. IZAK (talk) 12:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

in the context of this particular AfD discussion, I do not think that this is a reasonable criticism. I don;t think its causing disruption, but that the issues are difficult. DGG (talk) 02:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No Consenses for deletion of Glossary CJM

Tim, thanks for update .... reply , visit again .... Pilotwingz (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms

I will check to see if there is anything I can contribute. The problem is going to be good 3rd party sources. I see there has been some disagreement so I will exercise caution before I enter anything. I may ask your opinion first just to avoid a possible clash that has already taken place. In fact, I may make a posting in the talk page first before I do any editing beforehand. No promises. Knight1000 (talk) 01:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tim , it;s Pilot

Please stop by the article Bible talk page and join in the discussion ( #34, The Pendulum Swings ) ........ I have ask Alastair, Egfrank, Biki , as well to join this discussion ......... I went back by the articles talk page to see what was new and discovered that a particular Carl took it upon himself to delete previously important work in the intro. ......... I reinstalled the original intro. which also had my 4 sentence edit incorperated relating to testament and covenant as well as others prior work which had added a few alternate terms Christains call the Bible which are Holy Bible, Scriptures, Word of God ........... anyway , I would like to have some others involved here who were working at the time these important edits to the intro. were added ........... I am not asking you to side with me , I just want to see a consenses on this matter , other than just allowing Carl to delete prior work that was well cited , valid and important .......... I undid his deletion work and reinstalled the original , but he kept insisting on reverting , and this took place three times ......... I opened the discussion back up , and also contacted him on his own talk page .......... but he keeps insisting on having it his way as if he resolved a consenses to make the deletions , which is not the case ........ well thanks in advance and please join in so I may at least feel there is a consenses this way or that ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 08:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, no.

Avruchtalk 13:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Play nice

... and do not make unneeded and stupid comments in edit summaries as you did here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

out of ideas?

I cannot comment on Lisa. But I will say this: although I have tried to make constructive contributions to the glossary, I do have serious NOR concerns. I urge you to read over the NOR policy carefully and ask yourself how the idea of the glossary - its justification - does not constitute original research in the form of a kind of synthesis, drawing on different sources to convey an original project. I think the point is that this is not an article on some interfaith efforts, but an actual effort to promote interfaith activities. Please think about our NOR policy; Wikipedia articles should represent something out there and not try to create something new. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I could tolerate small amounts of OR in summary articles similar to this, if it brought a large amount of enlightenment. You typically can't find readymade tables or figures from outside wikipedia that are free to use, and also at the same time perfectly suited to our purposes, so there has always been a bit of an exception for that kind of thing.

There is also a religion wikia that might find such tables most useful. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I know you are feeling down, and I think you have good intentions. BUT: "The only originality of the page was the format." The thing is, format, the organization or structure of content, is one of the most common ways people violate NOR (because novle synthesis is forbidden and novel synthesis often occurs by juxtapposing information in novel ways. I am not asking you to respond to me, but if you value my advice at all and trust that my intentions are positive, here it is: (1) take a deep breath and relax. Even take a wiki-break of two or three days. (2) do not get defensive, do not take things personally even if you feel sur eyou have good cause. (3) read the NPOV and NOR policies until you practically have them memorized. Remember: a full understanding of the policies is not only understanding what they mean to you, but understanding how others might read/interpret them as well. (4) work through a discussion - not an argument, but an open (open-minded, open to new directions) conversation on the talk page to raise issues and seek consensus. Don't just try to build up a team of people who already agree with you. Seek to identify people who are neutral or even who disafgree with you and try to find compromises or new ideas that bypass conflicts. Final thought: Wikipedia has thousands of editors. Thousands!! If an idea is good, you should be able to get ten or fifteen people who support it. If out of thousands of editors you cannot build a consensus, you know what? Even if you (I am now using the generic you. Don't take this personally. I me, I mean everyone) get a handfull of people to accept a version and opponents give up and go away ... even if you achieve a stable version that you like that a few others very strongly support ... in the world of wikipedia, where there are thousands of editors and the number grows exponentially every month, by the end of 2008 your article will be unrecognizable. The broader the consensus, built slowly, with people of widely divergent views participating, NOW, the more likely your work will last over the months or years. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Walking away?

Just when I joined in and started helping out. We could still revert to a more usable version, if you really hate this one. I don't think I've seen your response to this point yet? --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Kim, I have a 700 page book in galleys that I'm proofing. I can contribute to a collaborative effort, but I cannot withstand repeated and deliberate (and advertised) sabotage. I just don't have the time! And it's way too ugly by this point. The fact that Wikipedia is even tolerating such POV pushing is beyond the pale. I can't keep fighting it.Tim (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's why an administrator asked me to come in and take a look. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay -- what can I do to help? I'm up to my eyeballs in orange highlight on my book, but I can do what I can. I'd suggest looking at the state of the page Friday midnight, and then Saturday midnight, to see the difference. This wasn't entered into any discussion. It was simply hijacked, and violently so. I did one reversion at a ridiculous hour like 3:30am and Sl tried to make some additions. By this evening it's back to the single blended glossary, which violates all synthesis, if nothing else.Tim (talk) 21:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Heh, spend time on your book first, that's most important, after all.:-) I'll see if I can talk with Lisa as well, and see what I can come up with. It's a bit early to make any big promises, except for the fact that I promise to talk with everyone -which might take a while. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC) I'm curious. What's the subject of your book?

Figs

I'm still kind of blown away by the claim that no Jews heard of fig symbolism, any Jews I've talked to previously know all about it since it's right there in Jeremiah 24, for me it's a rare thing to find a Jew who discusses religion completely not knowing about an entire chapter of one of the prophets. In the Jewish schools don't they ever study chapter by chapter as the Christians do? -Bikinibomb (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it is that Judaism has grown and changed a lot since Jeremiah. The religion of Jews today is not identical to the religion of the Israelites, not even to the religion of the Hasmoneans. Jews believe that it started with and is based on the Tanakh, but not everything in the Tanakh is of equal importance to Jews today. In this sense Jews are not "fundamentalists," a literal reading of scripture (or even an allegorical reading of scripture) does not define Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd put it that way, but your basic conclusions are correct. In most Jewish day schools, the prophets are not studied chapter by chapter. Sometimes the curriculum for a semester might include doing the book of Judges, for instance, but it's rarely going to be Isaiah or Jeremiah. Understanding those books is done on a much deeper level than merely learning the text. Basically, what's of paramount importance in the books of the prophets are those things that led to results in Jewish law and/or lore. And that is learned by learning the Talmud. As a result, the books of the prophets are rarely learned in depth nowadays.

This has is downsides, certainly. I was at a dinner of religious Jews in Jerusalem once, many years ago, and the topic of Samaritans came up. No one at my table was familiar with the narrative in II Kings that describes the Assyrians settling the various tribes who became the Samaritans in northern Israel. I was shocked, and disappointed, but I've grown accustomed to that hole in Jewish learning. -LisaLiel (talk) 20:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

NPA

Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

Edit summaries such as this one and edits like this are unacceptable personal attacks. Dreadstar † 21:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)