Talk:Bloody Sunday (1939)

Old discussion

We would surely like to know what was Bromberger Blutsonntag.
It is Sunday - when ?
What happened ?
Why ?
What happened next ?
Who were the perpetrators ?
There was some official Communist propaganda but obviously there was also Nazi propaganda that we don't want to put in this article. Right ?
Kpjas

Added quotes from Nuremburg trials: there is clearly more than one point of view about these events. -- Anon.

There is another Bloody Sunday on 9th and 10th September 1939 there were 1500 Polish inhabitants executed in retribution for the Bloody Sunday of 3rd Sept.
It was given prominence by the Communist authorities after the war of course.Kpjas

Note that i have a book about Bydgoszcz which quite clearly proves that there was no such thing and shows how false data was collected by Germans (for example, they counted every Pole with German sounding name, some of people supposedly killed were found alive etc)

The actualisation: I've found interview with author of the book, which changed his mind and now is of opinion that massacre happened and umber of victims is about 358 (but definetely not 5.000). User:szopen

but other call him: partyjniak Cautious 22:41, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Moved to talk: The numbers quoted in document are now usually lowered to 20 to 40 Polish soldiers killed in Bydgoszcz at September the first, and in whole about 13.000 inhabitants of Bydgoszcz murdered during the war.

Maybe somebody can updare recent documents of IPN? Cautious 22:41, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeti, don't kwno why you removed "from already prapred lists". There is no point in arguing that there were no such lists: there were. The members of Nazi party, German activists etc were on that list. The intention was to separate people from that lists, not to kill them; the utter failure of Polish government was that it started action during the war, because making it earlier would made interning easier.

It is also not the sign of "germano-fobia" of whatever. The same were doing other governments and it's quite natural - interning, not killing. Szopen

Also German pastors and politicians, some of them very old, were taken from their homes and forced to walk, some of them never returned. The real Nazis were arrested before the war.

Except for the ones who hid their political preference, were agents, or parachuted down 2 days earlier. Duh! Space Cadet 14:08, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

diversant

The article uses the term 'diversants'. I couldn't find the word diversant in my dictionaries (I tried two of them).

What is a diversant? Maybe it is an incorrect translation of the Polish word 'dywersant' - however, I don't know that word either. Is it something like 'saboteur'?

194.149.80.4 4 July 2005 12:45 (UTC)

Dywersant means saboteur :)

Moved from WW II atrocities in Poland

Bromberg Bloody Sunday event and its consequences were summarized in World War II atrocities in Poland. This remaining material might be merged with the article:

"According to Nazi propaganda:

In addition to the events in Bromberg, throughout western Poland a portion of the German residents were rounded up, jailed, marched eastward, shot and buried in nearby woods. This all occurred in the confusion of the military retreat. When advancing German forces neared the prisoner marches, they were some times executed as a spies, but more frequently released.

German and Polish historians continue to argue about the validity of the claims.

As German forces gained control, immediate executions killed over 3,000 Poles, many with unproven culpability. More reprisals were soon to follow. A British witness described the beginning of the massacre as follows:

The first victims of the campaign were a number of Boy Scouts from twelve to sixteen years of age, who were set up in the marketplace against a wall and shot. No reason was given. A devoted priest who rushed to administer the Last Sacrament was shot too. He received five wounds. A Pole said afterwards that the sight of those children lying dead was the most piteous of all the horrors he saw.

Following this, the Wehrmacht troops began rounding up schoolboys in the street, who were similarly executed. The witness continues:

Thirty-four of the leading tradespeople and merchants of the town were shot, and many other leading citizens.

The troops then attacked the Jesuits, looting and ransacking the church. The priests were taken to a barn, where the local Jewish population was already imprisoned, and they were all subjected to abuse. Altogether, some 1,000 people were killed in the ensuing massacres." --Ttyre 14:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Lysy ^(talk) 22:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Language

I would just like to point out the quality of grammar in the text was horrible, and at some points I had to read sentances several times to infer any sort of meaning from them. I did my best to clean up the mistakes that I saw, but the sentances were sometimes simply too ambigious. Articles should only be written and edited by people who no only have a decent understanding of the language that they're writting in, but are able to produce a sufficiently coherent text. If not, please stick to contributing to the Wikipedia in your language. Sooner or later someone will see the need for the article in their language and translate it.

Current Polish Position

Nothing on this talk page deals with an unbiased current Polish interpretation of what happened on Bromberg Bloody Sunday. Did it happen or not? Not, what happened before or after, but during the event. Dr. Dan 23:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's still disputed. Take a look e.g. at this (apologies for citing in Polish):

W „Nowej Trybunie Opolskiej” dyskusja o „Krwawej niedzieli” pomiędzy prof. Włodzimierzem Jastrzębskim a dr Tomaszem Chincińskim. - Nie znaleźliśmy natomiast żadnych dokumentów, z których by wynikało, że to Niemcy przygotowali słynną dywersję bydgoską. W związku z tym nadal bazujemy tylko na materiałach drugorzędnych polskich i niemieckich. A propos tych ostatnich - wśród polskich historyków panuje niezrozumiały dla mnie wstręt do źródeł hitlerowskich. Zakłada się z góry, że te dokumenty muszą być sfałszowane przez ówczesną propagandę. To błędne podejście. W tych dokumentach znaleźć można całe mnóstwo ciekawych informacji – mówi prof. Jastrzębski. - Ja wysnuwam zupełnie inne wnioski z tych materiałów. Dokumenty, do których udało mi się dotrzeć w Londynie, przede wszystkim meldunki polskich armii z 3 września, są absolutnie bezcenne, bo powstawały na gorąco – mówi dr Chinciński. „Krwawa niedziela – protokół rozbieżności” 10.09.2005 r.

--Lysy^talk 23:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Dziękuję, Dr. Dan 00:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

1) German press and relations of Sept 1939 were prepared by the Propagandaministerium of Dr Goebels. In 3rd Reich there was a strict system of political control of the press. The propagandaministerium issued day-to-day huidance of what may be written in press and how. Also, the presentation of Bydgoszcz case was guided by Propagandaministerium. The term "Bromberger Bloody Sunday" itself was decreed by Goebbels for obligatory use in German press. Hitler-time publications are as true a representation of facts of Sept 1939 as, for instance, publications in 'Pravda' were representaions of facts in Afganistan during 1979 on. In this context it is not an 'abomination' but rather rational estimation of published German sources.

2) Post-war German publications re-write of what was written in Hitler times. The present usage of Goebbels' term "Bloody Sunday" is an evidence.

2) The shooting to people on the streets of Bydgoszcz was not a fact done in hidden rooms, but in public. The shots and casualties were seen by seen by thousands of people. Mr. Jarzebski came to the conclusion that what had been seen by those mass of people was their sheer mistake (and those bodies of Poles shot in the streets were surely a fatamorgana? or perhaps they were cause by that Polish officer who allegedly shoot up in the air to open way for his military unit?), and he relies on Hitlerian and post-Hitlerian German publications. It is silly to believe it, I dare say. Quite similarly, also the existence of Gulag archipelago was "under dispute" some time and there was an unreasonable "abomination" of Soviet sources which "proved" it never existed. Please notice the similarities in both cases.

The Polish Pigons

I must ad, that the killing of German Civilians where not the first killings, done by the Polish on German. After the IWW in the areas witch where disputed like Upper Slesia their happend Killings against Germans True Polish the first time . A product of the peace treatys. Beween the war was a lot of unjust done against the German minoity from the Polish side and that endet in the Killings on the beginning and on the end of the Second world war, so it is a little bit amoral to blame everything only on Hitler and the Germans and to think the Polish are the peaceful unguilty pigons. J.

factual accuracy

"The factual accuracy of this article is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page." Where is such a label at "Holocaust"-related articles. Or is this label only reserved for articles dealing with atrocities against Germans.

holo-bias

Why cannot anything remotely related to Jews be covered on Wikipedia without childish squabbling? Facts should be facts. Finito!

Temporarily removed

Seems to be a not supported opinion. Could you supply some details?

Killing of German civilians in Poland 1939 German numbers

"August Müller, witch worked for the "Commission for the history of German in Poland" a half German state commission, has created an archive with 4.332 Names of sure death Germans murdered by Polish because they where German in 1939 in the fist weeks of the war. That is the lowest possible number. The Chief of the police commission on this of the German Reich, Wehner gave on the 20.05.1964 on an official meeting in Mannheim the number 6.300,- Germans killed by the polish witch can be seen as the highest number witch was surged for. Anyway it is very difficult because Germans lived all over the huge Polish state and the actual serge vor victims took mainly place in the Part of Poland witch was German before the first WW so the number could be even be slightly higher. Johann". Yeti 15:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

IIRC it was the list of the Germans from pre-war Poland which died during September-October 1939. I've seen a number of 5000 dead. However, it's hard to call them "lowest possible number of murdered by Poles", since it is a number of Germans killed, not "murdered by Poles". It includes probably victims of lynchs as well as sabotageurs, killed by air-raids etc. It's hard to believe that only Poles died as victims as air-raids - bombs choose no victims. Szopen 11:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This article needs A LOT of work

It says little to nothing and it lacking even the remnants of a citation effort. Furthermore, nobody in the English speaking world refers to this event - if they bother to learn about it - as the Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday...its Bromberg " " not only because nobody has a clue how to pronounce it (sorry Poland), but in a historical context, that is how it is remembered on an English page.--72.94.90.144 09:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, if the "English speaking world" learned to pronounce Côte d'Ivoire, they will learn to pronounce Bydgoszcz (sorry ignorants). Space Cadet 10:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Watch it there, Space Cadet. Do not try to make me feel like an "ignorant" foreigner...especially on my own turf. This is English Wiki. You have quite a track record as a Polocentric, and you don't even have the "excuse" of isolation and sheer size like the US does. I am raising the question as to whether it is referred to as Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday or Bromberg Bloody Sunday, and I'm pretty sure the latter is the case outside of Poland. I don't mean to be snippy Space Cadet, but you've started off on the wrong foot here.--72.94.90.144 17:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

You watch it! And don't push "easy to pronounce" names over the correct ones. Space Cadet 21:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

PS: You never heard of German post WW I revisionism and you have a problem with me using the word "ignorant". Come on!

See for yourself:

2,550 hits for "Bromberg Bloody Sunday"

51 for "Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday"

Checking the article's history, I see that it was only recently changed to Bydgoszcz instead of Bromberg with the logic that it is either this, Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday, or its full German equivalent. I do not agree with either solution.--72.94.90.144 22:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the post-WWI revisionism suggestion relates to Bydgoszcz/Bromberg Bloody Sunday except your effort to classify this particular event as part of a supposed long line of German fairy-tales. I'm not sure I buy that.--72.94.90.144 22:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't change my comments just because you don't understand them. Let me educate you: "Post Scriptum" means "after signature". Google hits don't represent encyclopedic knowledge. The "revisionism" part was added by mistake, my apologies. It was meant for another anon. Can you please get an account? Space Cadet 00:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I know what post scriptum means, don't be such a smartass. I was simply trying to keep your comments seperate from mine so people can follow this conversation. In light of this though, I think it is pretty ironic that you changed the title of this discussion, which I designated before you even got here. But anyway, yes, I agree that Google hits do not represent "encyclopedic knowledge", but a mere 51 hits certainly suggests what I am suspecting: "Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday" is not how this event is referred to outside of Poland. Obviously neither of us is accomplishing anything here and naturally you are going to disagree with me, so I guess we should see how the rest of the wikicommunity feels. For the sake of our conversation though, why are you so sure that Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday is "correct" for reasons other than personal preference? Also, I'm kind of fascinated by Poland's representation on Wikipedia; is English really that predominant in Poland? Hardly anyone seems to speak English in eastern Germany, though the Czech Republic is a different story...--72.94.90.144 04:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Article name

This incident does not seem to be referenced frequently in English. Based on publications, Bromberg is used slightly more frequently than Bydgoszcz based on Google Books ([1],[2]) and Scholar ([3],[4]). With that in mind, it seems the article should be moved back to the previous title. Olessi 05:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't insist on "Bydgoszcz", just a comment. English usage would probably depend on on the origin of the information and it can be equally "Bromberg" or "Bydgoszcz". As probably there are more German than Polish authors, I expect "Bromberg" would be more frequent (but I'm not sure of the "size matters" argument really applies here). On the other hand the city both before an after the Nazi occupation belonged to Poland and had Polish name and maybe we could respect that ? --Lysy^talk 06:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an odd case, since it is not frequently discussed in English. I'm usually not one for worrying about local sensitivities, so I'd rather go with a name most commonly used in English, if applicable. I'll inquire if john k would be willing to provide input. Olessi 20:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You mean who has more historians: Germany or Poland ? I think you don't need to ask john k to answer that question. I also expect that German historians, being more numerous, have overall more research output, so the German names will always prevail if quantity is all that matters. --Lysy^talk 21:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to discern whether there are more instances of Bromberg Blutsonntag or Krwawa niedziela. I am interested in whether the "Bromberg Bloody Sunday" / "Bloody Sunday of Bromberg" or "Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday" / "Bloody Sunday of Bydgoszcz" are used more with WP:UE in mind. I would be fine with using Bydgoszcz in the title if that is the predominant usage. Actually, after taking a look at the other titles at Bloody Sunday, an idea to take into consideration is simply calling it "Bloody Sunday (1939). What do you think? Olessi 22:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Bloody Sunday (1939) would be consistent with all the other Bloody Sundays naming and then "Bromberg ..." and "Bydgoszcz ..." would redirect to it. --Lysy^talk 07:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that too.--User:72.94.90.144 08:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday → Bloody Sunday (1939)– The desired title is neutral and fits with the naming scheme of similar events at Bloody Sunday. Olessi 19:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as originator. Olessi 19:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support as discussed before. --Lysy^talk 19:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support Looks pretty obvious to me that the page should be as suggested. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 22:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why Bromberger Blutsonntag- Bloody Sunday ?

Some photos and partial lists of victims were shown in previous entry, but removed: Victims photos- Lists of victims names- click on massacre photos (Warning: very graphic. Much is written in order to whitewash the event, but in order to understand what was done one needs to see the photos from English language newspapers.

A book with names and descriptions Labbas 20 December 2006

---

WIkipedia isn't the place for questions

I(f you have a question, discuss it here, not in the article.Xx236 07:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Jastrzębski

Jastrzębski has completely changed his opinion, so his old book shouldn't be quoted here. Xx236 11:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

German historians

German Wikipedia quotes Christian Jansen, Arno Weckbecker: Eine Miliz im „Weltanschaungskrieg.“ Der „Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz“ in Polen 1939/1940 In: Wolfgang Michalka (Hrsg. im Auftrag des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes) Der Zweite Weltkrieg - Analysen, Grundzüge, Forschungsbilanz. München, Zürich 1993, S. 484 - 4000 Germans in Poland died, of them 1200-1500 in Bydgoszcz.Xx236 12:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Details

MAny articles describing German crimes are more abstract and should be rewritten the same way, with pictures and other details. The other solution is to neutralize this article. Xx236 12:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to reconsider what is bias and what is not

n the context of Wikipedia's rules, I have the basic question why the shooting of German saboteurs is to be 'alleged' while the massacring of Germans is cited without any adjectives, i.e. a proven fact? The attack by 5th column was done in the eyes of thousands of Bydgoszcz inhabitants. Court evidence from the Polish side was collected as early as in 1945 and was submitted to Nurnberg Tribunal, which supported this accusation in his verdict. Please come to Bydgoszcz and meet many old persons in Bydgoszcz who witnessed the shots, remember from what houses they were done and remember those killed. There are or were at least similar number of Polish witnesses than German ones. Polish court sources were published. The amount of evidence produced is at least the same in favor of 5th column attack than those in favor of Germans' massacre. In this article German sources seem to be treated as less biased and more reliable than similar ones coming from Polish side. Pehaps German origin automatically assures less bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacek Kucharski (talk • contribs) 11:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

German and Polish relations

The relations wasnt so bad. The Germans has culture and sport clubs in Bydgoszcz. The polish football teams has played on german sport place in Patzer Garden... --84.142.196.110 17:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at the murdered Germans

We could make atl least fair use of the pictures taken. Ther are plenty. For sample http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities_p219-223.htm 87.234.156.16 (talk) 10:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh my godness. Shall we really to expect from the reader to stand the truth. The material is so cruel. Better forge. I can't stant that. 131.173.32.97 (talk) 11:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

So, we should use the photos prepared by Nazi propaganda? From a site, which contains literally thousands of errors, omission and hate speech? Come one, this is encyclopedia, not some nazi site. Szopen (talk) 16:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is terribly inaccurate

I will rewrite it shortly; for now I will just tag it. The article sources currently are primarily "German amateur historian, Hugo Rasmus" and IIWW-time Nazi sources (sic!). Modern sources (both German - Günter Schubert, Das Unternehmen "Bromberger Blutsonntag". Tod einer Legende, Köln 1989 and Polish - Włodzimierz Jastrzębski, "Dywersja czy masakra", 1988) agree that the massacre was likely started by German fifth columns and that the number of German civilian casualities was lower (nothing more than what could be expected during a short urban fight between a regular army and uniformed militia, although the numbers are still disputed); crucially German planning from the very beginning assumed that the fifth column and the 'uprising' would be defeated by the Polish sources and wanted that as well as reprisal against the Germans (and hence German civilian casualties) because Goebbles propaganda needed this event as a 'proof' of "Polish war crimes". Polish Institute of National Remembrance published a document summing the above up in 2004 ([5]); --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Another sad example how Nazi propaganda lives to this day. This article needs a great deal of re-working.--Molobo (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Inaccurate references: for example, in 2006 an anon has rewritten the article adding five times a strange ref to Richard Blanke, The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No. 2. Apr., 1992, pp. 580-582. See also: Wlodzimierz Jastrzebski,Der Bromberger Blutsonntag: Legende und Wirklichkeit. and Andrzej Brozek, Niemcy zagraniczni w poliyce kolonizacji pruskich prowincji wschodnich (1886-1918)'. First of all, one should not refer three publications at the same time; but in any case I cannot find any publication by Richard Blanke (otherwise a reliable scholar publishing on Polish-German issues) that can be traced to The American Historical Review in 1992; see Volume 97 ToC here - note it does not contain a single piece by Blanke. With that, the article does not contain a single reliable reference other than Roland Spickermann Orphans of the Kulturkampf which is used solely for pre-1910 background. PS. I did a quick check on Google Scholar trying to find any publication by Blanke that mentions "Bloody Sunday" or "Bromberger" and I couldn't find a thing. If anybody can provide the proper reference for that, it would be great; otherwise I'll likely have to remove the claims supported by this "reference" during my rewriting as unreferenced.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, I just discovered that one of the sources used is a online library of Nazi propaganda books and what seems to be a neo-nazi website. Disturbing to say the least.--Molobo (talk) 23:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Which one? The text does attribute several sources to Nazi era works, and I do believe that we should show how Nazi propaganda tried to portray the events (of course, with clear attribution). After all, their view is as notable as the Soviet claims that Germans committed the Katyn massacre. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This site http://www.jrbooksonline.com/, it opens with a quote of Hitler, picture of an "Aryan" girl from known Nazi poster with slogan underneath "tell her the truth about race", and lists things such as Jewish Ritual Murder resources, Racial Biology of the Jews etc. This 'thing' was used as source in article.--Molobo (talk) 23:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, a google will give you the material on JSTOR, which is a more reliable source that Google apparently cant access. I suppose someone has gone to a uni library and downloaded this or similar.--Stor stark7 ^Talk 23:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I even found what might be one of the referenced works [6]

Piotrus (talk · contribs), please please keep a check on Molobo (talk · contribs), thanks to your intervention here he has already proceeded to delete the sourced information, about a minute after your request for verification. Jeeez. is it supposed to work like this?--Stor stark7 ^Talk 00:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:V supports removal of unreferenced info. I will read through the sources you brought up and ajust the article accordingly; thanks for bringing them up.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Frentz sources: Rasmus

Frentz cites Hugo Rasmus for more graphic details of the massacre. Can we get information the reliability of those authors? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Focus: Bydgoszcz or Poland?

While I think a good part of the Stor Stark 7 concent was valid - I am in the middle of verifying and restoring it - the "German victims through-out Poland" section is not relevant and should be moved to a more general article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)