Template talk:Righteous Among the Nations

Order

I question the order of articles featured in the template. My own suggestion is that the links be placed in alphabetical order and it was with this in mind that I made my edit. It was never my intention to "make work". I should point out that there was no "removed link".

As it is there appears to be no rhyme or reason concerning the overall order. What is described as the "order of importance" places The Holocaust twelfth of thirteen!

I think listing "countries as per number of Righteous" is a bit odd, as if one deserves mention before another. And why is it that Croatians and Norwegians are listed as "Croatian Righteous" and "Norwegian Righteous", instead of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations and Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations? 99.242.171.73 (talk) 19:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• I suggest, if you like your ideas so much, go to the main article first and move its sections around the way you like them, in alphabetical order. I doubt you’ll be able to convince anybody though. And yes, you are “making work”. The Righteous were usually Christians, however, you have removed the internal link to Christian ethics twice already, which is highly disruptive. Please stop. Christian ethics were guiding the Righteous --Poeticbent talk 22:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I never removed Christian ethics from the list as you've now twice accused me of doing. In both my edits [1][2] Christian ethics is listed fourth (between Budapest Glass House and Croatian Righteous Among the Nations), just as one would expect when arranging the list in alphabetical order.

I recognize that you created the template, so wonder if you'd explain how you came up with what you've described as "order of importance". The template refers to lists and articles on people, organizations, events and religion. While it is difficult to compare one to the other, I don't think it right that The Holocaust appears twelfth of thirteen, nor do I see the sense in placing Yad Vashem, which, after all, bestows the Righteous Among the Nations title, eleventh. Again, given the range of topics, I think the links are best placed in alphabetical order.

I understand that a third opinion might be of value and so will post a request. 99.242.171.73 (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I’m sorry, but this highly contentious idea of putting everything in alphabetical order made me miss the link to Christian ethics, which was stuck rather oddly between two disparate countries. I would have never looked for it there. Alphabetical order makes no sense. Please go to Righteous Among the Nations article and see the order there. I did not create this template “out of thin air” and I don’t own it, nor do I want to be constantly forced to go back and deal with unilateral changes. We can discuss the order of remaining links here without edit warring. --Poeticbent talk 01:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

When placed in alphabetical order, Christian ethics doesn’t fall between “two disparate countries”, but between Budapest Glass House and Croatian Righteous Among the Nations. Not only is Budapest not a country, the subject of the article is a building. What’s more, it is not known as “Budapest Glass House”, but simply Glass House (as is indicated by the actual title of the article: Glass House (Budapest)). Finally, the connection the article has with the Righteous Among the Nations (not mentioned in the article), rests with Carl Lutz, a Swiss diplomat.

The issue of nationality is also raised by the link to Twentieth convoy, which you’ve included as “Belgian Twentieth convoy”. The Twentieth convoy was, in the words of the Wikipedia article, “a Jewish prisoner transport in Belgium organized by the Germans during World War II”. It was quite obviously not at Belgian transport.

You’ve suggested that I study the order in the Righteous Among the Nations article. Though I am in no way disputing their presence in the template, I note that the article contains no references to: Twentieth convoy, Glass House (Budapest), Christian ethics, List of Righteous Among the Nations by country, and Rescuers assisting Jews during the Holocaust.

When you suggest I look at the “order” in the article, I can only assume you mean “Count of the Righteous Among the Nations by country” – which, obviously, does not contain Seven Laws of Noah, Yad Vashem, and The Holocaust.

This leaves us with Polish Righteous Among the Nations, Croatian Righteous Among the Nations, Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations, and Rescue of the Danish Jews. As all appear under the “Notes” section, it is to the order of the respective nationalities that I assume you’ve been referring. Fair enough, though I will point out that “Rescue of the Danish Jews” is an article about an event and is obviously not an article on Danes recognized as Righteous Among Nations.

This leaves us with the Polish Righteous Among the Nations, Croatian Righteous Among the Nations and Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations. As I’ve written above, I don’t think it correct that these articles have been placed above The Holocaust and Yad Vashem in “order of importance”. Likewise, I don’t think an article on a building in Budapest is more important that one on the Seven Laws of Noah.

Again, I recognize that what is being compared here are articles on groups individuals, events, a structure, a prisoner transport, Judaism, Christianity and the body responsible for bestowing the title Righteous Among the Nations. How arrange such a broad spectrum of topics? As it is not possible to arrange these articles chronologically, I see alphabetical order as the only alternative. I acknowledge that you think otherwise.

At no point have I suggested that you created this template “out of thin air”. I have, however, asked after the thinking behind the order.

It was never my intention to edit war – indeed I waited for a response to my initial queries and comments. After 24 hours and no response, I decided to restore the template to alphabetical order. You'll note that I have let your reversion of my edit stand.

I look forward to your response to my queries and observations, and hope for input from third-parties. 99.242.171.73 (talk) 13:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad we're communicating and am quite impressed with your analysis. This template is inspired of course by the article Righteous Among the Nations - with one of its main features being the large table listing the Righteous per their country of origin - with Poland appearing in the first line, Netherlands in the second, France in the third and so on. My intention was to hotlink the existing articles in the same order which I called the order of importance (table only). I was limited by the lack of many such articles as well. That's how I ended up listing Twentieth convoy instead of nonexistent Belgian Righteous Among the Nations and Glass House (Budapest) instead of nonexistent Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations. I wanted to mention at least the first countries listed in that table and admit that I was forced to make a few arbitrary decisions. There's no Danish Righteous Among the Nations article and no French Righteous Among the Nations so I couldn't list them here. You say, no "one deserves mention before another". That's an arbitrary thought. For example, there were two (2) Righteous in Brazil. If you believe that Brazil ought to be mentioned at the very top of that table in "alphabetical order", why don't you try to convince the community to reformat that table in that order? Or maybe, you'd prefer the table to be deleted since "listing 'countries as per number of Righteous' is a bit odd" according to your initial statement? I don't think so.

This is a very quick exchange of notes which resulted in some unfortunate foreshortenings. When I was referring to the order of importance I meant the number of Righteous, and not the hotlinks to Holocaust, Yad Vashem, Seven Laws of Noah and so on. I have no problem listing the Holocaust right under the main article if that is justified. Template:The Holocaust however is quite extensive already and in my opinion should only be supplemented with the Template:Righteous when needed. - Like true book editors, we need to make decisions here other than putting everything in alphabetical order. Nobody does it that way in the real world, so please, try to rearrange the links for me here in a way that makes sense to you, but other than alphabetically. --Poeticbent talk 16:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The table in the Righteous Among the Nations article is set up in such a way that it permits the user to view the Righteous Among the Nations by country in order of number per state or in alphabetical order (it defaults to the former). While this flexibility is very convenient for the reader, it is in no way reflective of an “order of importance”. Indeed, Yad Vashem confers no such thing and provides no list according to count, rather their statistical list is presented alphabetically.

I do think it incorrect to list according to number of Righteous. And, yes, I don’t think that one nationality or ethnic group deserves mention over another. How to rate such a thing? You suggest according to number of Righteous. Another might suggest that the number saved is more important, but as Yad Vashem states, “These figures [the number of Righteous Among the Nations - per Country & Ethnic Origin] are not necessarily an indication of the actual number of Jews saved in each country, but reflect material on rescue operations made available to Yad Vashem.” A third might suggest that the Dutch be placed first, as a greater percentage of their population has been recognized. Furthermore, if we rely on count to determine “order of importance” where do we place the Danes, whose Underground members asked to be commemorated as a single unit. Under your “order of importance”, the Danes are ranked 24th, when they might just as well be in the top three. I'm sorry, but I find the whole idea of an "order of importance" rather distasteful.

I cannot agree that Twentieth convoy, an article on a Nazi-organized transport in any way serves to replace a “nonexistent Belgian Righteous Among the Nations”. Likewise, Glass House (Budapest) can in no way fill in for a “nonexistent Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations” – and, as I’ve pointed out, the Glass House article relates to the actions of a single Swiss national (one of 44 Swiss Righteous), not a Hungarian.

I don't follow your statement concerning alphabetical order in "the real world"; indices are traditionally presented in this manner. However, while I don’t see that Template:The Holocaust should be supplemented by Template:Righteous as you suggest, its use of category divisions could provide an idea as to how one might organize this particular template. I will give the matter some thought. In the meantime, it is my hope that others may contribute to this discussion.

Nearly a full day has elapsed since my unfulfilled request for a third opinion. I wonder how you might feel if we make a request for comment? Alternatively, we might ask post an informal request for comment at Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism, Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel and Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish History under the scope of which Righteous Among the Nations falls. Do let me know what you think. 99.242.171.73 (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)