Talk:Gothic metal

Archives

For previous discussion, please see:

• Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 1
• Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 2
• Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 3
• Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 4

A Few Websites

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=37 (A bit mixed up with other bands, most notably bands of other genres easily mistakable for Symphonic Metal, Ie: Nightwish)

http://www.last.fm/tag/symphonic%20metal (Another site listing many Symphonic Metal bands, and proves the point that sites arent generally reliable normally, as its mixed many Power/Gothic/Gothic Doom and Evanescene into that)

http://www.magle.dk/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4041/an/0/page/0 (Thats a forum thread on Symphonic Metal and again says what ive spent the last week saying)

http://www.epinions.com/content_4100366468 (Again listing a whole bunch of Symphonic Metal bands. Has a couple of obviously non Symphonic Metal bands in there, but the point remains)

http://www.ancientspirit.de/reviews/cdreview/m/inhalt.htm (Another band archiver, more accurate than most. Noticable how they list many Gothic Doom bands under 'Dark Metal')

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Cradle+Of+Filth (A little bio on Cradle of Filth to back up one of my points)

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=78 (Same as before, but listing Gothic Doom, managed to contradict itself and post a Symphonic Metal band or two in there, haha)

http://www.doom-metal.com/history.html (A whole site about Doom Metal)

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/3443907/a/Metal+Years:+Gothic+Doom.htm Has Gothic Meta/Gothic Doom/Other Doom and Other Genres on that cd)

http://www.earpollution.com/nov99/coolbyproxy/coolbyproxy.html (A page on all Doom Subdiversions including Gothic Doom)

Thats all ill list for now, i dont have massive amounts of time so the list is itself, only a few sites. But that should show my point, that the general consensus is in agreement with me. And that websites updated by fans, especially younger ones, are often contradctionary and wrong. ~~Leyasu

"But that should show my point, that the general consensus is in agreement with me." You are joking, right? --Danteferno 02:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)#

Well point is, your not right, and u can quote as many people who dont have anything to do with Gothic Metal as you like, the people involved will always be right. See the case of the dog again. (~~Leyasu)

If only that were true. Those websites provide no relevance to the various claims you made, i.e. the frivolous "lawsuits" against Evanescence or Metal-Archives, proof that a gothic metal band called "Sweet Nightmare" existed, evidence as to which bands began the style, "Romantaice and Fantacide", etc. It looks like a few of those sites are forums (which are not a reliable source of Wiki-information, as Idont told you.)

For the longest time, you seem to think as if this whole thing is "big, bad Dante" vs. Leyasu. Again, looking back at the discussion, several people have strongly criticized your edits and your claims, not just me. Perhaps it had to do with me being the main person reverting them, but I was not the only person to do so. Whether you're in denial of this, or didn't notice, quite funny. I thought the risk of being banned for 3RR would at least subsequently result to good discussion. Tragedy, no lire.

Actually, this whole thing is fast turning into "Leyasu vs. Leyasu". You provided a website (Metal Observer) as a good source of information - I also recall you consistently saying that Lacuna Coil is a nu-metal band. Don't look now, but Metal Observer called all 'Lacuna Coil' albums Goth(ic) Metal, (which is what they are). Oh, don't tell us - that part of the website was written by 14-16 year-olds? Stop embarrassing yourself and wasting our time.--Danteferno 18:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, the revert war didn't solve anything, and I expected that to be the case. The page protection at least got discussion to move forward and become more civil. But you're right; there does need to be a more stable consensus on which sources are good to use. --Idont Havaname 03:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Metal Observer is probably a good source of information - the links Leyasu provided just didn't provide any back-up for his outrageous claims. You will remember he called "Lacuna Coil" nu-metal - Metal Observer (a site he used as a reference) does not support his claim. He seems to be coming off as a one trick pony ("Dante, your(sic) POV and speculative, and so many things you say contradict eachother"). I don't think he knows the definitions of a lot of the terms he uses. As for deciding which sites should be used and which shouldn't, the way to determine that in "Leyasu-standards" is difficult. Supposedly, anything that he doesn't agree with is written by 14-16 year olds, and anything he agrees with don't support the claims he makes. --Danteferno 02:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Dante, you missed the point, again. I said the websites i got from Google, which you claimed didnt exist, are as unreliable, POV, and speculative as your own. The point was, they can favour either argument, and, often contradict each other when they agree on certain other things. That is the point. ~~Leyasu

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And that websites updated by fans, especially younger ones, are often contradctionary and wrong. That should say enough. All the sources there, and the ones you provided are fan pages that ALL CONTRADICT each other. That was half the point, that you seem to of keenly ignored as it doesnt suit your argument. Also i said i dont have enough time and that its a few websites. Things uve complained about that im far too lazy to trawl through the internet for pages on, have been removed or reworded. Your rehasing old arguments and im seeing no1 agreeing with you other than, how did you put it, 'sock puppets'. You have also given me no reason as to how Lacuna Coil are gothic metal other than, 'i think they are so they must be', which isnt a good argument on a musical stand point. I also didnt say any of those sources were good, the point was they are all agreeing with me, and many times they contradict each other, just like yours. Please do not claim me as saying something i did not say, unless you can openly quote me saying it. Idont, i also edited the Temp page some more, and added a part, i think you should read over it and copyedit anything you think is not, well worded, shall we say. ~~Leyasu

Improving the flow/readability of Gothic metal/Temp

I've noticed a few more things about the revised version that might make it more readable.

1. The mention in the introduction about crossover with other genres should still be there. It isn't in the revised version right now.
2. Header titles are somewhat better in the current revision. "Pre-Gothic metal" is awkward; I've never heard of that genre.
3. The "History" section of the current revision generally flows much better when I read it, and it seems to have more content. It's probably good to mention symphonic metal, but the Peter Steele reference is in the current version, and so is the mention of toning down the death grunts, etc.
4. Also - where is the scene currently best-developed? The current revision says Norway/Scandinavia; the rewrite says England and France. I'd say the former.
5. The gothic doom section in the rewrite should definitely stay. Flow with the rest of the article is something we can all keep working on.
6. The last paragraph of "Other gothic metal fusions" might be superfluous. I think that was already mentioned earlier, so we might not need that.

--Idont Havaname 04:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

All noted in kind. By the mentioning of crossovers, what do you mean exactly? If its the 'is a crossover between heavy metal music and gothic music itself' line, i removed it because Gothic Metal has nothing of influence from other Gothic Music, and the only parts of Gothic music i know of is in Gothic Doom.

Pre-Gothic Metal was meant to mean (Before Gothic Metal) as in, leading up to it, because Pre- means Previous (i think). How do you best think that would be changed?

The Male vocals only got toned down in Symphonic Metal, and much of what is in the current version only applys to Gothic Doom and Symphonic Metal, with little history of Gothic Metal itself. The deal with leaving out Type O Negative is because they are a Gothic Doom band, and Gothic Doom is mentioned lower in the article.

The scene is mostly developed in England and France, only due to that being where most of the bands are known, play, and where Gothic Metal is mroe common. It is true, that most of the bands come from the more Scandanvian/Norway area (i am not good with Geography). That is the reasoning for that, but, should it be said that the bands are from one place, and the core fan base in another?

The only reason for adding it was to clear up confusion over the contradictions made by places like, The Metal Archives, BNR Metal Pages, The Metal Observer - so on, so forth. I thought it best to also mention it, because more and more bands are walking the fusion orientated path. If it needs to be removed, so be it.

Thats the reason for each thing, in order. So you know the reasoning, and objective, when you make suggestions on how to change it. ~~Leyasu

Agree with most of what Idont Havaname noted.The gothic doom part is mentioned in the original version, and while it could probably be expanded on, there's definitely a lack of flow, clarity, and accuracy about it in the re-write. (Type O Negative are not a "gothic doom" band) --Danteferno 10:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It was NOT mentioned in the original in a manner informative nor correct. You have STILL not offered any reason as to how Lacuna Coil or Type O Negative are not Nu Metal/Gothic Doom. And their isnt a lack of accuracy, when your version takes selected parts of three different forms of metal while emmiting other parts, and mish-mashes them together to create something neither informative, nor accurate. Also, if your going to claim it is 'lacking flow', please explain 'how' its lacking flow, so it can be improved, not keep piping on with the 'my version is better so dont mess with it' argument. If the currently posted version was better, it wouldnt of been revised at all. If Dante, you cannot make any contructive comments towards the revised version, other than to make your 'my version is better so dont mess with it' argument, i suggest you simply dont make any comments at all. ~~Leyasu

Leyasu, you still have not offered proof as to how Allmusic/Metal Archives were both sued and written by 14-16 year olds. There is nothing/nowhere, that backs up this claim, just as there is nothing/nowhere, that backs up claim that Lacuna Coil are a nu-metal band. The burden of proof for making these claims has always been on you, just as myself, user Idont Havaname, Arm, Ray Dassen, and more have told you. Are you in denial of this, or just here to waste people's time? What is your problem? --Danteferno 14:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

'There is nothing/nowhere, that backs up' is a foolish claim to regard 'anything'. I dont even recall use Ray Dassen even posting. Here to waste peoples time? no. Even if i havent backed up 'some' of what ive said with sites on Google, that doesnt mean 'There is nothing/nowhere, that backs up' what ive said. I also said that the average age of Metal Archives users was 14-16 as THEY posted, and if they have since retracted that statement, that is up to them, not me. I also pointed out Allmusic CLAIMS SPECULATION, which in no way, says that i said about them, what i repeated Metal Archives saying about themselfs. Also, now your claiming other users have said things they have not said. You have also offered as to no support or way on how anything i have said is wrong, except the arguments of, 'I cant find X on Google so it doesnt exist', 'He/she said this so it must be true', 'I think this so its automatically right regardless of everything', and 'your a troll because i dont agree with you' Not one single one of your arguments has been plausable, and every single one of your arguments has been turned over. Of some things youve asked, i have for sake of avoiding arguments, removed. However, your whole attitude and stand point as been childish, and unco-operative, and has mostly been personal attacks directed at me. Again, give me a reason as to how Lacuna Coil/Type O are not what ive claimed them to be, from a musical standpoint. I also await being told, 'how' the revised version 'lacks flow' so it can be improved. Once again, if you have nothing constuctive to post, dont post anything at all, as is the spirit of Wikipedia. ~~Leyasu

---

Aspite the recent arguments with me and Dante that just do not seem to cease over the same issue, however static or poorly argued, i have edited the temp page in a attempt to make it flow better. However as nobody told me WHY it didnt flow well in their eyes, i have had to take a shot in the dark as to why. Thus i juggled about the 'Sounds And Constructs' part and the top part. Ive deleted, minorly reworded, and slightly added to what was there. I also rearranged the order in what things come up, so it should go

• 'Sound'
• 'All Guitars'
• 'Keyboards'
• 'Atmosphere'
• 'Lyrics and Vocalists'

It should easily go from one part into the next, and link their relevance easily. Can people please next time they pick fault, explain 'WHAT' gives it that fault, thank you ~~Leyasu

Contradictionary Sources

Dante has raised the point of a place having a good reputation among people unaffiliated with something, as being a good source on it. I would like to point out the errors in this.

A) All of the sources contradict each other. They all agree on some things, and disagree on others. All of them are openly updated by people who CLAIM speculation. All of them openly are updated by fans with BIASED POV on bands. Also, a source isnt good when it contradicts itself several times, and in itself, admits to being updated mostly by younger fans.

B) BNR and Allmusic openly admit to what they write being speculation, and POV. Metal Archives have themselfs said they list bands as what they 'think' they 'should' be playing. Goth-Metal is a fan-site community, openly run by younger fans.

C) Dante has chosen to ignore things about the sites, that are mentioned above, because they dont suit his argument. It can also be recorded, that Dante has discredited sources, because they are forums updated by fans, when in itself the sources he provided, are the exact same thing with prettier HTML.

D) I see no reason as to how one fansite which claims speculation, inaccuracy and POV, is accurate over other fan sites, that claim speculation, inaccuracy, and POV, because they dont agree with Dante.

E) The sources Dante have provided are not any more reputable than the ones i provided. And as pointed out above, Dante simply discredits them for not sharing his POV. And in the end, this is what the argument has been about, Dante's POV vs factual accuracy.

Im going to continue editing the Temp page, until the article is best it can be. And Dante's argument is no better than mine, he cant criticise someone for the argument of 'so and so told me so', when he is making the exact same argument. Dante needs to help make a better article, and stop clinging to his possesive nature of ownership. ~~Leyasu

Continue editing it, but that won't change the fact that you continue to make unsourced claims that no one (except you) believes and stands upon. Even Idont havename (who is probably the most patient of you, and that seems to be changing) has pointed out that as long as you make unsourced claims, you just dig yourself deeper into credibility debt.

Nowhere does it show those sites "openly admit speculation/POV on their page" - that's because they don't. Lies won't help you, they'll just sink you further.--Danteferno 02:14 2 December (UTC)

Symphonic Metal Greatly Misrepresented in Temp page

Compare the symphonic metal page to the Gothic metal/Temp, and the Temp-page is largely inaccurate. (Also note that I did not write the summary for the symphonic metal page.)

The atmosphere rarely follows the deep morbidity of doom metal unlike its origin; gothic doom, or the upbeat nature of its sister genre; symphonic metal.

Symphonic metal is not known for having an "upbeat nature", nor is it a "sister genre" of gothic metal.

A softer genre known as symphonic metal had evolved in the mid- to late- 1990s from gothic metal bearing strong similarities to its predecessor, with bands led by female singers.

Also wrong. The symphonic metal page noted that the term is not a subgenre but rather a term to describe metal with "symphonic elements". (power metal and black metal were noted as the two most known genres for using "symphonic" elements.) There are probably some instances where gothic metal "crosses over" with symphonic metal elements (mentioned in the current version) but no source will validate that it evolved from gothic metal. --Danteferno 02:45 2 December (UTC)