Talk:Anaheim Hills

Anaheim Hills, California is an Wikipedia:Outstanding Achievement and Progress, which means that it (or a previous version) has been greatly modified and drastically improved over the past 90 days, and is now one of Wikipedias premier articles. In its current state it is one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, please feel free to contribute.

Changes

I removed the following because these "facts" werew unverifiable (or at least i couldn't verify them)

• However, Anaheim Hills enjoys the lowest crime rate in the city and one of the lowest in Orange County. Violent crime is virtually non-existent; however, drug problems and petty theft remain as minor issues.

• However, the local high school has decreased in prestige over the last few years mainly to drug problems and the loss of the top students to other school districts, namely Troy High School in the Fullerton Joint Unified High School District (FJUHSD). While the local elementary and middle schools are excellent, Canyon High has failed to meet the standards of a school in such an excellent community.

• Anaheim Hills has excellent places for shopping, most notably the Festival Center in east Anaheim Hills. Other places of interest include Oak Canyon Nature Center, Knowlwood (Voted the Best Hamburger restaurant in Orange County), two movie theaters, an excellent public library, and an excellent choice of foods, including Macaroni Grill, Mandarin Taste, Hibachi Steakhouse, and Wood Ranch BBQ and Grill. In 'n Out and Chipotle appear to be the current trends in fast food.

• Anaheim Hills has a reputation of being a quiet and safe, yet exciting place to live. It is an excellent place to live whether you are a teenager or senior citizen. Another plus is that the weather is generally excellent except for a few days in the summer when it can get above 100. The temperature almost never goes under freezing, and snow hasn't fallen in many decades.

I also added the references section, cited a couple of things, and added a link to a map of the area. In light of these changes, i have removed the POV tag. Not sure who originally wrote this article, but it really did read like a tourism ad.--Alex 20:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

POV!

I added POV tag, someone keeps adding blatant POV lines to the article such as "However, the local high school has decreased in prestige over the last few years mainly to drug problems and the loss of the top students to other school districts, namely Troy High School in the Fullerton Joint Unified High School District (FJUHSD). While the local elementary and middle schools are excellent, Canyon High has failed to meet the standards of a school in such an excellent community."--Alex 19:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be easier to just ditch the tag and remove the contributions. If they are uncited, they don't belong in the article at all. --Hetar 08:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, this article reaks of self-promotion. Was it written by the Anaheim Hills Chamber of Commerce?

It defnitely reads that way! I've made changes in the past that just get removed the next day so i'm not really sure if there's anything i can do to improve the page, as someone seems to have an interest in making sure the page continues to read like a travel brocure. I'm somewhat new here, is there a standard way of dealing with such issues? Actually, at the very moment it looks like someone has cleaned it up...--Alex 22:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who "cleaned it up", but I did so with a very broad stroke by reverting back to the version before 71.144.105.17 (talk • contribs) and Ericsaindon2 (talk • contribs) ever touched the article (same person, I suspect). I did so after User:Will Beback pointed out the situation with this article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southern California. I honestly didn't see any way to separate the verifiable from the fluff without massive effort. At that point, our booster probably will have added back all the crap we remove. Someone should probably tell the user about verifiablity, sourcing, etc, but their agenda seems so obvious that I doubt they'd pay any mind. Mike Dillon 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Changes (May 2006)

I changed the Anaheim Hills section from the junk written by Mike Dillon. Its apparent he has never been to Anaheim Hills. And I was not the original writer when it was in a Travel Brochure state. I think that these changes are fair and unbiased, and actually make sense, if you have ever been to Anaheim Hills. Stop changing it back to the original text because that text was poorly written! Ericsaindon2 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for starting to add references for some of your additions. However, links to plain websites like http://www.census.gov and http://www.dataquick.com are not really sufficient. You should try to reference an actual publication or URL. Mike Dillon 18:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, all you have to do is look at the edit history to see that I didn't write anything substantial in this article. Mike Dillon 18:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The only way we can be sure that it is "fair and unbiased" is if you cite your sources properly. As it is, it seems to be pushing the point of view that Anaheim Hills is so much better and different than the parent city of Anaheim (with a tone that smacks of bias to me). It's possible the sources support most of the "data points", but we can't know unless the sources can be reviewed. Mike Dillon 02:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

"City" of Anaheim Hills

Editors who repeatedly add references to the fictitious "city" of Anaheim Hills are effectivly vandalising this encyclopedia by adding untrue information. There is no seal of this non-existent city. There is no mayor. Anaheim Hills is a neighborhod of the city of Anaheim, and nothing more than that. I'm sure it's a fine neighborhood, but it is not a city. -Will Beback 19:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It isn't just the seal. The map is also fictitious since there is no reference given for the official boundaries of this neighborhood. Without an official reference, we have know way of knowing whether the boundaries of Anaheim Hills were made up by the uploader. The page really should not have {{Infobox City}} and it definitely should not be in Category:Cities in Orange County, California. Mike Dillon 01:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added the {{disputed}} tag to this article because of the amount of revert warring going on in the last day. Readers have a right to know that this article could be changing under their feet and cannot be trusted until the disputes are resolved and things settle down. Mike Dillon 01:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well then stop changing its contents. It is all factual, and why should I need to prove that there is a shopping center in Anaheim Hills. I LIVE THERE FOR GOD SAKE, ISNT THAT ENOUGH PROOF. It wouldnt be so disruptive and disputed if you just stopped trying to defy me, so go on to pick a fight with some other innocent Wikipedia user about their article because your unnecessary criticism is really getting old.-EricSaindon2

No, that isn't enough "proof". I'm afraid we'll have to keep "defying" you until you can sort out your references and pro-Anaheim Hills chauvinism. Mike Dillon 02:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. You may want to sign your comments using ~~~~. It helps others follow the timing of the discussion and its participants. Mike Dillon 02:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

City tag for non-city

I removed the "city seal"; Anaheim Hills is not a city. Antandrus (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Summary of disputes

Since I ended up intimately involved in the disputes over this article that I don't really care about, I thought I'd summarize the situation:

1. Back in April, somebody started adding paragraphs upon paragraphs of unsourced, biased material to this article. User:Will Beback, a Wikipedia adminstrator involved with Wikipedia:WikiProject Southern California posted a "heads-up" at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southern California#Anaheim Hills, California. Will asked for help from the project's editors with "archeological" editing, so I put it on my watchlist. After looking at the article, I made the bold decision to revert all of the changes instead of putting {{fact}} everywhere.
2. After a month passed, Ericsaindon2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) showed up and started making more unsourced additions to the article. I'm not sure if he was involved in the original changes, but he has a habit of switching between editing anonymously and logged-in; see the most recent IP edits: 69.232.54.105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I reverted his changes as original research and for the lack of citing sources. Despite what User:Ericsaindon2 has said elsewhere, this was unrelated to sourcing the "location of a store" but was related to two paragraphs of unsourced demographic information.
3. After I reverted three times (before violating 3RR myself), I put a note on User:Will Beback's talk page since he was an admin with knowledge of the situation. I added {{unreferenced}} and {{cleanup-tone}} to the article, but I didn't revert anything else until the next day. Ericsaindon2 reverted my changes and vandalized my userpage by adding the same two templates to my page.
4. After another admin (User:Zzyzx11) got involved, I eventually added {{disputed}} and put a note on the talk page. Ericsaindon2 reverted this again and vandalized my userpage with that template.

I basically haven't made any other edits since, leaving the situation to admins. I did add {{fact}} to the "Location in Orange County" claim in the infobox since the map does not make clear what the source of the official boundaries shown on the map are (I believe they were made up).

My fundamental objections are:

1. Unsourced demographic information attempting to support the biased opinion that the neighborhood of Anaheim Hills is "better" than the surrounding city of Anaheim. User:Ericsaindon2 added links to the article that were intended to be references, but they were actually plain domain names, not full URLs.
2. The fake "city seal" for Anaheim Hills, created by User:Ericsaindon2 (Image:Ahills.jpg and Image:Ahills65.jpg). This "seal" claims a 2007 incorporation/foundation date for the fake "city". There was an earlier fake city seal claiming a 2006 date that was created in April during the first round of problems with this article (probably by the same user).
3. The inclusion of this article in Category:Cities in Orange County, California, when it is not an incorporated city.
4. The use of {{Infobox City}}, a template intended for use only with incorporated cities.
5. The use of {{Orange County, California}}, a template used only on the county's article and the pages of incorporated cities in the county. Until a week or two ago, it was called {{Cities of Orange County, California}}.

All of these things lead readers to think that "Anaheim Hills" is its own city, not a neighborhood of Anaheim, California. I hope this explains my position clearly. Feel free to ask any question here or on my talk page. Mike Dillon 05:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mike Dillon has correctly summarized the matter, and I agree with his objections. There are many facts that we can write about the district of Anaheim Hills, but we mustn't go beyond what is factual. That includes obfuscate its political situation. Should the neighborhood secede then we can decribe it as a city, until then it is a zipcode, a neighborhood. Intentionally inserting false information is either vandalism or, more politely, hoaxing. Either way it has no place in the project. But factual matters aside, Wikipedia has standards and procedural norms that've been disregarded. Edit warring will not be tolerated. This is a collaborative project and no one may insist that we must rely on their special knowledge as a reference. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -Will Beback 08:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Page move

This page was moved from Anaheim Hills, California to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California and back again. When it was first moved, double redirects were fixed, but when it was moved back they were not. I propose that this page be moved back to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California to agree with commonly accepted naming for neighborhoods of U.S. cities. If that doesn't happen, the double redirects should be fixed to point to the current name, Anaheim Hills, California. Mike Dillon 02:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with the page being moved to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California. Not only is this consistent with other pages, but it removes the impression that Anaheim Hills is a fully distinct area. Adambiswanger1 13:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll

This is an informal straw poll to see what the support is for moving this page from Anaheim Hills, California to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California. Support means you want to rename the page to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California, Oppose means you want to keep it named Anaheim Hills, California. If you want to move it somewhere else besides the listed option, please vote Oppose. Let's try not to move the article for a few days (at least until User:Ericsaindon2 is unblocked and has a chance to contribute).

• Support Mike Dillon 14:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support Adambiswanger1 14:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support Denvoran 15:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support Soltras 16:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral

• Support If the infobox is put back onto the page, since under Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California, it will state that Anaheim Hills is within Anaheim, and will remove confusion among the infobox even being there
• Decline If the infobox is not replaced since there will be no confusion over Anaheim Hills being a community, and the rule of Community, City, State is rarely enforced, and is not generally a rule --207.200.116.131 03:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Neutral feel the same way as user:207.200.116.131 --70.237.91.134 05:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Which one of these is Eric? Anyway, Eric has repeadely supported this convention by moving articles to the "neighborhood, city, state" model. He should offere some explanation of why he does not support the same treatment for Anaheim Hills that he does for Newport Coast, Newport Beach, California. -Will Beback 20:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • The problem here is that Eric has edited from both of these IP addresses ([1], [2]). Since the first one is an AOL address, it's possible you aren't both User:Ericsaindon2, but it would be better if you both had accounts. Mike Dillon 06:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• I have you know that the reference you are making to me is in reality not me. Now you can choose to believe me or not, but I use two names on Wikipedia, ES92808 and Ericsaindon2, so there would be no reason for me to go under an alias other than those two. Plus, my computer code when I am not logged in is different than the one presented there, so unless I was using multiple computers (which would personally be alot of hassle to just impress you people), I couldnt have multiple account/computer numbers --70.237.91.134 07:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • The first edit I referenced was a response from 70.237.91.134 (in the first person) to something I said to User:Ericsaindon2. The second edit was an edit from 207.200.116.131 that was signed "-Ericsaindon2". Are you saying the two edits weren't logged-out edits from User:Ericsaindon2? Also, since your IP address is controlled by SBC (and the other one by AOL), it is presumably allocated dynamically. This means your SBC address could change occasionally, but the AOL address could change with every page edit (because of the way AOL's outbound connections work). Mike Dillon 07:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• I see what your saying. I do have AOL,that is how I was able to contact Krista Alton, the editor of that original piece that was unreferenced. A long time ago, before I created an account, I used AOL as a general Wikipedia edit place, but I quickly created a screenname after Will Beback asked me to so that confusion was avoided, so I did. And on another note, almost all of Anaheim Hills residents have SBC Global, so it would not surprise me that another anonomous user had the same ID as I started with. I am sure she will create a new account soon after Will tells her to, just like I did. --Ericsaindon2 07:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Standard naming convention for neighborhoods of cities. -Will Beback 20:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Infobox City

Can someone please present an argument for including {{Infobox City}} in this article? It is an infobox intended for incorporated cities and its inclusion here leads to the mistaken impression that Anaheim Hills is a city (in case anyone missed this, it is a neighborhood in the city of Anaheim). Subtle alterations to the infobox to make it look like a neighborhood do not help matters since this infobox is usually only seen on the articles of real cities. We can wait until User:Ericsaindon2's block is done to discuss this, despite the fact that he's circumventing it with anonymous edits and a new account (User:Es92808 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). Mike Dillon 03:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that one of the IP addresses just cited an external link to the rdesk.com database. In my opinion, it is not accurate because it is giving information for a specific address in Anaheim Hills (possibly his own address) located in a neighborhood full of large mansions, tennis courts, and swimming pools - not indicative of the entire community of Anaheim Hills as a whole. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't really a source. I just put it in <ref> format to make it easier to put a real reference later. A real reference would be something that actually says the things claimed in the article, not a bunch of data. Mike Dillon 04:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not my address, that is an address of a home in Anaheim Hills, California. The statistics on the page do not reflect the address itself (for the house is worth close to $5,000,000, but refer to the 92807/92808 zip code as a whole). A small $300,000 condominium home would come up with the same price in regards to Anaheim Hills. This reference refers to ALL of the ANAHEIM HILLS area.-Ericsaindon2

Eric, would you mind addressing why you think {{Infobox City}} should be used in this article? It is quite misleading to make this article look like a city article. User:Will Beback suggested elsewhere that this may be a reason to have a specific infobox for neighborhoods that makes it clear that they are part of a city. Presumably, it would not have all the governmental stuff that make the city infobox look so "official".

Also, what is your source for the boundaries shown in the map in this article? They should be listed on the image description page (Image:Anaheimhills3.JPG), especially since they likely aren't official borders. I'm assuming you took the borders of 92807 and 92808 and eyeballed the cutoff of the 91 freeway. Mike Dillon 04:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont know how to state my source for the boundaries on the map. I enlarged the Orange County template to match a Rand Mcnally map I have of the Orange County area so that the borders matched up. Then I traced the borders and decreased the image back to normal size. I am not sure how to cite that?-Ericsaindon2

I suppose you would identify the specific Rand McNally publication (which should have an ISBN) and state something like "approximate boundaries added by User:Ericsaindon2 from Rand McNally publication name". Of course, it would be interesting to see how official Rand McNally's boundaries are for neighborhoods like Anaheim Hills. Mike Dillon 05:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A better map would show the position of the Anaheim Hills neighborhood within the city of Anaheim. That would go far toward making the area's status more clear. Mike Dillon 05:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look like anyone is willing to make an argument for why the city infobox should be used on a non-city article, so I'm removing it. This notice has been up for almost a week and all known interested parties have made other edits to the article and talk page. Mike Dillon 14:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll:Infobox

Community of Anaheim Hills, California
Location within Orange County, California and Anaheim, California Anaheim Hills shaded in red Anaheim shaded in gray
Country   State     County       City	United States   California     Orange       Anaheim
Government
• Mayor	Curt Pringle
Population  (2003)
• Total	53,997 (community)
Time zone	UTC-8 (PST)
• Summer (DST)	UTC-7 (PDT)
Website	http://www.anaheim.net

This is an informal way to voice your opinion about if an infobox should be included on this community page.

Benefits

• An infobox adds to the overall quality of the article, and puts all facts about a location in an organized manner

The "facts" about Anaheim Hills can be presented in a different "organized manner", one that does not give the impression that it is a formally organized municipality. Any "quality gains" achieved by the infobox would be lost by the confusion and inconsistency it would generate.

• This infobox has completely been modified to meet the ideals of Anaheim Hills as a community including no city seal, city flag, and leads to the Anaheim City Website, and states Community of Anaheim Hills, California on the top of the infobox

The infobox has not been completely modified and remains very similar to that used for cities. The very presentation of "official"-looking statistics gives the impression of an actual governmental entity, which it is not.

• It provides the only cohesive map that shows Anaheim Hills within Orange County, and appears like other similar infoboxes

A map of Anaheim Hills can be presented in the article without having an infobox. Furthermore, any map showing Anaheim Hills would most appropriately show its location within the City of Anaheim, not Orange County.

Drawbacks

• It can lead to some confusion if Anaheim Hills, California is not changed to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California

It will confuse, regardless of the article's title, because NO OTHER Wikipedia article about a neighborhood, district, or other subdivision of a city, to my knowledge, has an infobox.

• Some may think that a few facts are unnecessary on the page

If you support the infobox, please state "support", and if you decline it please state "decline".

• Support --207.200.116.131 03:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Same problem as above; User:Ericsaindon2 has edited from this IP. Mike Dillon 06:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• I have you know that the reference you are making to me is in reality not me. Now you can choose to believe me or not, but I use two names on Wikipedia, ES92808 and Ericsaindon2, so there would be no reason for me to go under an alias other than those two. Plus, my computer code when I am not logged in is different than the one presented there, so unless I was using multiple computers (which would personally be alot of hassle to just impress you people), I couldnt have multiple account/computer numbers --70.237.91.134 07:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• I oppose having an infobox, for the italicized reasons inserted above and expressed under the heading "Infobox and Title" below. Denvoran 05:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• I support the info box because I agree with all the above reasons, but I do feel that, as the original person who put the infobox on the page, it is a good addition. I have read notations made by people about the Anaheim HIlls page on other talk pages, and many seem to think that it is presented well. It was, like stated, completely modified, and can be modified further to meet the standards of confusion. --Ericsaindon2 05:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think that having Anaheim Hills be the one neighborhood with {{Infobox City}} is a bad precedent. If this ends up in the article, it should be more like this. Mike Dillon 05:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I would only support a neighborhood infobox for Anaheim Hills if it were standardized for all neighborhoods. However, since there is no standard for collecting data within a neighborhood, I see a neighborhood infobox as bulky and misleading. The closest viable option for data collection would be manually adding up census data for each relevant zip code, but that's not feasible for neighborhoods that lie only partially within a zip code, and data involving percentages is subject to compounding error when summed. In any case, the manipulation of such prepared data borders on original research because of its difficulty to verify even when sources are provided. However, I believe that an infobox without numerical data (i.e. one that just indicates what city the neighborhood is part of and maybe what zip codes it contains) would be too small to be practical and regarded as an annoyance by stewards of neighborhood articles far and wide. Therefore I oppose the infobox altogether. Soltras 08:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--for reasons stated above. Hollywood doesn't have one, Brooklyn doesn't have one, and to try to include information about Area, Demographics, and Government would be clumsy and innacurate.

I have modified and reinserted the infobox to meet more of a "community" standard. If you dont like it, please dont just delete it, please put some reasons under the straw thing --Ericsaindon2 07:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed it again just before you added this note. Having a copy of the box on this page is enough for people to see whether the support including it or not. Since this is a long weekend for most people (in the U.S.), we should try to wait a couple days before making any changes on the issues being polled (the infobox and the name). Mike Dillon 07:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks like {{Infobox City}} is also in use on Newport Coast, Newport Beach, California. Mike Dillon 08:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Newport Coast existed as a census-designated place before 2001. I don't see much of a problem with having an infobox for a CDP, but now that it is part of Newport Beach the infobox should be removed. The situation here is different: Anaheim Hills was not a CDP for which statistics were officially produced - here an effort is being made to "cook up" figures and statistics so that Anaheim Hills can have its very own infobox, where at least with Newport Coast the figures are (assumably) Census data. Denvoran 15:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I was just pointing it out. I still oppose having the city infobox on any unincorporated entity. It would be different if there were a reasonable {{Infobox Neighborhood}}, but I honestly can't imagine one that would be of much use. Mike Dillon 17:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have modified the infobox to meet all suggestions listed above, and have come up with a comprimise. Feel free to comment on this revised vesion of the infobox I have described here. --Ericsaindon2 16:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. Anaheim hills has no formal boundaries, therefore the map and the statistics are all conjecture. There is no mayor, there is no website, etc - all belong to Anaheim. There's no need for this box, any details which are verifiable about the association can be placed in the text, just like every other neighborhood in America. -Will Beback 20:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Community of Anaheim Hills, California
Location within Orange County, California and Anaheim, California Anaheim Hills shaded in red Anaheim shaded in gray
Country   State     County       City	United States   California     Orange       Anaheim
Government
• Mayor of Anaheim	Curt Pringle
Population  (2003)
• Total	53,997 (community)
Time zone	UTC-8 (PST)
• Summer (DST)	UTC-7 (PDT)
Website	http://www.anaheim.net
Anaheim Hills statistics about demograpics, population, economy, etc. can all be found on DataQuick rather than Census for it is not an incorporated place

Sorry. Adding more and more explanations and disclaimers, especially pointing to information sources that can't be verified without paying money, just shows that this doesn't work. {{Infobox City}} is meant for legally incorporated areas. Mike Dillon 17:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Detailed Map

I have included a detailed map of the Anaheim Hills area at a more close up view. I hope it clears up any confusion that you may have had about the Anaheim Hills boundaries. Yes, I know the map does need some updating, but it is the best I could do.......for now.--Ericsaindon2 06:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. What is the authority for this map's boundaries? Does the City of Anaheim have official boundraies for its neighborhoods? From the description it appears that the boundaries are not the same as a Zip code, unlike many neighborhoods. Are there census tracts? Lastly, please don't post copyrighted images on Wikipedia, except in very limited circumstances. -Will Beback 06:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The Anaheim Hills area designated all areas south of the 91 freeway under their Canyon and Hill area General Plan with the city of Anaheim, a more specific governmental representation division for the large city. This area became known as Anaheim Hills when Anaheim bought this part of the city in 1972 from the City of Orange and the Peralta Family Farm. The zip codes are divided between Anaheim Hills and Anaheim because part of the 92807 (north of the 91 freeway) was part of Anaheim during its 1857 incorporation. The 92807 zip code was added upon when the Peralta Land was purchased in 1972 to add on to this zip code. When the zip code far exceeded the recommended the number of residents per zip code, the eastern portion of the area became the 92808 zip code. So that is why and how Anaheim Hills defined its unofficial boundaries. Many maps are avalible, but are either copywrited or costly to download. Anaheim does allow you to purchase the Anaheim Hills General Plan Map at their convention center, but the best way I have found was using a blank map and shading in the areas described in official text. --70.237.91.134 22:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at the City of Anaheim's General Plan.[3] It makes no mention of a neighborhood called "Anaheim Hills", only the "Hill and Canyon Area". It does mention "West Anaheim", which elsewhere you wrote is not officialy designated. So are you asserting that Hill and Canyon Area is the same as Anaheim Hills, and if so, what is your source? -Will Beback 01:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is a picture of 1/11 of these signs that is scattered marking the borders of Anaheim Hills since you seem to believe it does not exist. L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg-Ericsaindon2

The correct link to the image is Image:L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg. Soltras 05:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

That image, Image:L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg, appears to be the same as Image:Anaheim Hills 6.jpg. It reads, "Anaheim Hills: Planned Community Association". So, it's not a city, and it's not a recognized neighborhood. It's an "association". Are we sure that the association covers the same ground as the "Hill and Canyon Area"? -Will Beback 06:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

From what I can tell, "Anaheim Hills" is a development within the Hill and Canyon Area, but is not the entire area. Here it's described as a "3,000 lot master community"[4]. This real estate site calls it a neighborhood [5], but since the city doesn't it is a bit iffy. -Will Beback 06:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will try to clear this up again. The Anaheim Hills Community Asssociation is just one of nearly seven community associations in the Anaheim Hills area (and yes it is the larges of them). ALL areas in Anaheim Hills are under an association, or it is not part of Anaheim Hills according to the outline of the Canyon and Hill area General Plan. Excluding the parts north of the 91 freeway, all of the Canyon and Hill General Plan is Anaheim Hills, but since these areas north of the 91 freeway dont pay one of Anaheim Hills's many association fees, they are not considered Anaheim Hills. I showed you this picture because I thought that you got the impression that Anaheim Hills served as a name for merely nothing. It wasnt to prove the point of its community association, it was to show you that the term Anaheim HIlls does exist. --70.237.91.134 20:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

So Anaheim Hills is a consortium of developments/HOAs that occupies parts of the officially recognized Hill and Canyon Area? -Will Beback 21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are finally getting it! However, not all areas of Anaheim Hills are under an Association fee, but all areas of the Canyon and Hill Area General Plan do benefit from the Associations paid by these residents. As you can probably assume, Anaheim Hills has tried to reincorporate dozens of times over the years, and I think that since Anaheim Hills fits a model equation for a city after its development over the past twenty years, cityship for Anaheim Hills is not far away.--70.237.91.134 05:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it's an unusual arrangement, but perhaps increasingly common. Regarding cityhood, I personally doubt we'll see it anytime soon. First, in all of the research I've done I haven't seen any mention of a movement for independence. Second, such a city would have very little sales tax base (the main source of income for most Califorina cities), and so probably would not be economically viable. Bedroom communities don't work as cities. That's my opinion, but it leads me to question any assertions of a meaningingful independence movement. -Will Beback 07:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Demographics

How did you determine the census and demographics figures? Whenever I try to enter "Anahiem Hills" at http://factfinder.census.gov, all I get is that it "cannot find any information for the location you specified". Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that it was probably retabulated from the 92807 and 92807 ZCTA data. This would be fine if it were more explicit about the source (cf. Ladera Ranch, California#Demographic estimates). Mike Dillon 14:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are some links for the ZCTA data: 92807, 92808. I spot-checked that the numbers in this article match the combination of the two ZIPs by recalculating the African American number of 0.2% (632 + 418 / 36283 + 19612). The ZCTA reference maps are here: 92807, 92808. Mike Dillon 15:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as long as someone rewrites the section to be more like Ladera Ranch, California#Demographic estimates, I am fine by that. But then that leads back to the original question posted above: What are exactly the boundaries of Anaheim Hills? Of course, if you enter "Anaheim Hills" into the USPS Zip code finder, it lists 92807, 92808, 92809, and 92817 (which is designated for PO Boxes only). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I messed up the math, but the actual statistic is 1.87%. I guess no published statistics match the "0.2%" in the article. Mike Dillon 03:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

These demographics are avalible by using ONLY the 92808 zip codes statistics. Since Anaheim Hills only contains parts of the 92807 zip code, the 92807 zip code cannot be used in a census search. The parts of Anaheim Hills in the 92807 are greatly outnumbered by the other noninclusive parts of Anaheim that contain the 92807 zip code. When the OC Register does statistics and figures regarding Anaheim HIlls, all data can be found on the DataQuick database, although the OC Register does pay alot of money for access to this private organizations information. --Ericsaindon2 02:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Then how come the "Black or African American" statistic for the 92808 ZCTA says "2.1" percent and the change you made on May 19 says "0.2" percent? Mike Dillon 03:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Because like I told you, the counted zip code, 92808, may say 2.1, but you bare not including the WHOLE PICTURE. This sector of the 92807 zip code is nearly .5%, which nulls that 2.1% out. But when looking at the 92807 zip code in its entirety, you can clearly see that the african american population is significantly higher, because the parts of the 92807 zip code that are not in Anaheim Hills have a significantly higher African American population than the 92807 Anaheim Hills parts. This MUST be calculated using neigborhood statistics and not zip code statistics, like I have done. --70.237.91.134 05:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

What are neighborhood statistics? The recognized "neighborhood" is "Hill and Canyon Area". It osunds like individual census tracts would have to compiled in order to get the right statistics for the area. -Will Beback 08:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You are completely wrong. 92807 has a 1.7% statistic for "Black or African American" and 92808 has 2.1% (632 people in 92807 and 418 people in 92808). So basically you've just admitted that you're doing original research since the only way to come up with these numbers is logic that only you know (i.e. not based on the published boundaries of any recognized authority). This entire exchange is getting more and more ridiculous. Mike Dillon 14:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

But you took the demographics from the ENTIRE 92807 zip code! That is not correct! The African American Population in 92807 may be the number you stated, but this part of Anaheim Hills' 92807 zip code is below 0.2%! And remember you cannot just average the numbers together because the 92807 zip code for this sector of Anaheim Hills has many more people than 92808 does, virtually making the 2.1% in the 92808 zip code nonexistent. Check your math, and dont include the whole 92807 Zip Code!--70.237.91.134 04:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Then what exactly are the neighborhoods and communities you are using to define your data set? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Anaheim Hills, like I stated earlier to Will Beback is... I will try to clear this up again. The Anaheim Hills Community Asssociation is just one of nearly seven community associations in the Anaheim Hills area (and yes it is the largest of them). ALL areas in Anaheim Hills are under an association, or it is not part of Anaheim Hills according to the outline of the Canyon and Hill area General Plan. Excluding the parts north of the 91 freeway, all of the Canyon and Hill General Plan is Anaheim Hills, but since these areas north of the 91 freeway dont pay one of Anaheim Hills's many association fees, they are not considered Anaheim Hills. Anaheim Hills does have official boundaries, and is defined by the land movement and purchase in 1972 by the City of Anaheim with Texaco Industries to build Anaheim Hills.--Ericsaindon2 04:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

DataQuick vs. Census Debate

OK. Here is my math:

${\frac {632+418}{36283+19612}}\sim 1.878\%$

I don't know what your math is because you're making no sense, but even if half the people in 92807 lived in "Anaheim Hills" and there were no African Americans there, your numbers are wrong:

${\frac {0+418}{{\frac {36283}{2}}+19612}}\sim 1.107\%$

Even if all of 92807 was part of "Anaheim Hills" and had no African Americans, your numbers would be wrong:

${\frac {0+418}{36283+19612}}\sim 0.747\%$

Your "0.2%" is a bullshit number. I'd like to see your math. Mike Dillon 04:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok I see your point. I did not do any complicated math formula, I used DataQuick to solve the demographical makeup of ANaheim Hills. I have changed it to reflect each neighborhood using the Census Map in 92807, and full 92808 statistics, then averaged each number based on the population. I am sorry this has become such an ordeal. --Ericsaindon2 05:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying that you are using data from both DataQuick and Census.gov to compute those averages? Such calculations would be inaccurate unless both DataQuick and Census.gov took their data at the same time. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I have been using DataQuick, and it has thrown user Mike Dillon off a bit because he was using Census and couldnt figure out why there was such a discrepency in the numbers. I told him that it is harder to use Census because they dont recognize Anaheim Hills, whereas DataQuick Orange County does. But to make Mike Dillon happy, I switched to Census and did the calculations neighborhood by neigborhood to get the totals. --Ericsaindon2 05:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's see: Anaheim Hills is unrecognized as a geographic location by the U.S. Census Dept., the U.S. Postal Service, the state of California, and the city of Anaheim. It's an indistinct neighborhood, and so I think we should avoid detailed demographic and geographic info. Let's just say the area has over 50,000 residents and almost 19 square miles. We will be perfectly accurate in both respects. Also, can we all agree about the P.O.? That screenshot is very odd content. Even if we don't agree, let's at least move it to this page for discussion. -Will Beback 08:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

PS: Eric, there is mail for you at User talk:Ericsaindon2. You can respond there. Cheers, -08:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Can we just keep the infobox on the page. I mean at the very top of the infobox I put Community of Anaheim Hills--so you would have to be totally oblivious to think Anaheim Hills is a city at that point, plus the first words in the article state that it is just a community. There is no way you could misinterpret that this is a community, unless you just skipped reading the infobox altogether. Furthermore, the infobox is totally accurate and uses neighborhood by neigborhood census tracts, versus just Anaheim or 92807, 92808 as a whole. I spent alot of time working on this box, and rallying information that I feel approporiate for the infobox. It is not creating any confusion, I mean even in the infobox it states City:Anaheim, even the dumbest person could figure out Anaheim Hills is just a community. Pls, why would you deny people the opportunity of learning everything about Anaheim Hills on one page since everything you research about Anaheim Hills is very scattered, and/or incomplete information. I think that Wikipedia, as it stands now, gives the most comprehensive information about Anaheim Hills, and I have had a couple of personal emails saying that I represented Anaheim HIlls well on this page. Although it may look like a city infobox, I have made it so that its idiot proof, and couldnt be mistaken. Can you just leave it because I know its standard rules for a city to have this box, but the box has totally been customized to fit Anaheim HIlls with the removal of the seal and flag slot, as well as the addition as included in the City of Anaheim. --70.237.91.134 03:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Eric, you have once again violated our policies by reverting the repeatedly. Please do not make these unilateral edits when the rest of the editors disagree with you. Please respond to the messages on your talk page. -Will Beback 04:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you people just leave Eric alone! The page reads well, and it is obvious that it is a community for this fact is stated over and over again on the page. Stop using an abusive power that you have and keep blocking him just beacuse he is improving an article. Not everyone will approve it, but it is a good article, and I believe that the infobox is beneficial to the article (because Eric is right about it being hard to find information about Anaheim Hills on the world wide web). You cannot seem to give any reason that the infobox shouldnt be there, unlesss you personally have something against user:Ericsaindon2 or something, and I cannot come up with a reason that it shouldnt be there. He switched all his data over from DataQuick, or whatever its called to meet the ideals of the Census Survey, and even did his calculations neighborhood by neighborhood, which is a timely process, just to gain the approval of other uncooperative editors, and they still arent happy. So what! The infobox was not originally intended for communities, yet it has been totally changed and customized to fit Anaheim Hills as a community, and not as a city.--207.200.116.131 04:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a collaborative effort. Editors who are not willing to honor the input of other users should find a different project. If other editors agreed to the box then your agruments might make sense, but it is inappropriate for Eric to keep re-inserting it over the objections of everyone else. It is also inappropriate to keep moving the title of the article. Eric himself moved several other neighborhood articles to the "neighborhood, city, state" format, so he clearly understands it and is apparently avoiding that format for this article intentionally. As for the demographics, this neighborhood has no official boundaries, so there can be no exact data about it. Vague data would be fine. I hope that when his block expires he will work with the other editors to find a consensus, and then will honor that consensus. As for you, please get a username if you want to have a separate identity. However if this is Eric, please be aware that abusive sockpuppets are not tolerated. -Will Beback 04:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Infobox and Title

It seems that (a) certain contributor(s) is/are trying very hard to assert Anaheim Hills' "independence" and is/are going to great lengths to distinguish and separate it from Anaheim. Posting an "infobox" for the community is misleading and inappropriate. Even Hollywood and Brooklyn - probably the two most recognizable "communities" in the country that are parts of cities and not cities of their own DO NOT have infoboxes! Why should Anaheim Hills, which is much less known and far less important than Hollywood or Brooklyn? Using an infobox suggests that Anaheim Hills is formally organized as some sort of municipality, which it is not. Instead of showing the location of the community within Anaheim, which would demonstrate that it is a portion of that city, it shows its location within Orange County - just like the infoboxes of legitimate Orange County cities do. This is misleading! It lists a mayor, suggesting that there is a mayor of Anaheim Hills - this is not true! The infobox supplies irrelevant, "fluff" information - it is clear from other parts of the article that the community is in California, and who cares what time zone a neighborhood is in? Simply slapping "community" on the heading of the infobox does not eliminate these confusions and inaccuracies.
Furthermore, the title of the article as "Anaheim Hills, California" is in the format generally used for independent cities and towns, or for legitimate place names used in mailing addresses. Since "Anaheim Hills, California" is none of these, using it as the title of the article is inconstent and misleading. The article on the Los Angeles district of Hollywood is titled "Hollywood, Los Angeles, California" and the article on the New York City borough of Brooklyn is titled simply "Brooklyn". The title of this article should either be "Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California" or "Anaheim Hills", but not "Anaheim Hills, California".
In light of the above arguments I am removing the infobox and moving the article again. If someone can provide legitimate arguments supporting why Anaheim Hills, among the many tens of thousands of neighborhoods of the U.S., is so exceptional that it merits its very own infobox, please state it here. Likewise, please state why this article should break convention and be titled as {city, state} even though Anaheim Hills is not a city, town, or a postally acceptable place name. Denvoran 06:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This is all well and good, but lets get some kind of concensus before just moving the page around...especially since you have put forward two proposals. There are plenty of unincoprorated areas that are listed "place, state" that are not officially towns or cities. I see some logic in the name including the city of which the community is part - but from what I see there is far from any kind of style guide on how to handle this. Another option is Anaheim Hills, California (community) and that has the advantage of easier wikilinks Anaheim Hills, California since you can easily get wikipedia to ignore the info in parens easily - ie include the pipe but no text after the pipe like this: [[Anaheim Hills, California (community)|]] will create a link that is named for the article minus the parens Symes 10:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Community, State" is primarily used for unincorporated areas outside of a city (or at least not entire contained within a city). Anaheim Hills, however, is a neighborhood fully contained within the city of Anaheim, so it should be named "Community, City, State". Mike Dillon 14:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I've started an informal "straw poll" on the naming in the Page move section above. As for the infobox issue, it would be nice if we continued the ongoing discussion in the Infobox City section above instead of splitting it up. Mike Dillon 14:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Economy

So I re-worded/wrote the recently added "Economy" section, but I added a beside the list of companies that are headquartered in Anaheim Hills, just to ensure that the original writer is sure that they are indeed headquarters, and not regional branches. If anyone from the area can verify this list, feel free to remove it.Adambiswanger1 05:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

USPS screenshot

Here is the USPS screenshot:

I am removing it from the article. Mike Dillon 06:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC) )

• I admit that image I posted was an odd piece of evidence... but it looked cool at the time. Now that I look at it, that fair use image is not really that necessary when the text speaks for itself. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments on Straw Poll

Will, will you vote on the infobox and on the redirect page, it would really help out the votes. --70.237.91.134 05:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)