Talk:Abkhazia conflict

This is the talk page for discussing changes to the Abkhazia conflict ARTICLE. Please place discussions on the underlying political issues on the Arguments page. Non-editorial comments on this talk page may be removed by other editors.
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Moral losses?

What's a "moral loss," as referred to in the intro? Was that supposed to say "morale loss," or was some other meaning intended? Just wondering, as it's currently unclear. --Parakkum 22:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It might be a literal translation from the Russian "моральный ущерб" which, I believe, means "humiliation". --Bakken Aug. 1, 2006

Ah, thanks. I'm going to try to clarify that as "psychological damage" then. Right now, an English speaker's going to have trouble with it. --Parakkum 21:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Small Question

I have a small problem with the article. At the end of the second paragraph of the subtitle called 'History of the Conflict', there is a word 'boevysk'. I cannot find any information about this word. I think there can be some transliteration problem while transliterating it from Russian or Georgian or Abkhaz language to Latin alphabet. Also if there is an information about this word in the article, it would be better. If someone helps me, I will be happy. I'm also interesting in Caucasian politics and Georgia specifically. I hope in near future I will make some contributions to the articles related with Georgia. Thanks for those who involved in the creation of this article. [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 11:50 UTC +2

Hi. "boyevik" is a Russian word for "militant" or "fighter" sometimes used in modern English to denote the members of rebel or unlawful military formations. --Kober 09:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kober [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 22:05 UTC +2

On reworking the article

The article as it now is presents the war and all the major events related in chronological order. However this doesn't promote the understanding of the causes of the conflict and doesn't give any clue for the stance of the parties and the role of foreign mediators. I believe that new sections should be created under the titles "Conflict Mediation", and a short "Profile of the parties" as well as a description of the "Current 2006 situation" regarding the conflict settlement. Donnerstag 22:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

A new section on the Abkhaz side

In order to make it more expanatory, I have tried to summarize ideas expressed from some international scholars here:

The Abkhaz Side For the Abkhaz side collective memories of suppression from Georgian during the Soviet rule, cooperation of Georgian elements with Russian oppressions in 19th century and more importantly the element of fear that has survived after the Stalinist policies of Georgianization justify a tendency for demands of full independence.

The maximal—and the only expressed—claim of the Abkhaz people is secession or full independence. The solution they propose is that of two sovereign states. The status of the relations with Georgia, are not clear in their proposals, but the minimum requirement of any solution is the guarantee of independence (Cornell, 2002). Back in 1991, in one of the last attempts for power sharing before the armed clashes begun, a new electoral law on the allocation of seats in the Abkhaz parliament was accepted by Abkhaz leaders and Gamsakhurdia, but soon failed. The attempt failed then because both sides never abandoned the aspiration of monopoly of control over the territory of Abkhazia. Georgians justified their claims as that of the democratic majority; Abkhazians used the argument of autochthony and the need to correct the historical injustice, to justify their claims. Gamsakhurdia never truly believed in the arrangement but accepted it in order to close an open front and concentrate his efforts on the conflict with South Ossetia. The Abkhaz authorities accepted it is a concession giving further rights to their ethnic group (Coppieters, 2001).

Both Abkhaz government and opposition oppose any reunification with Georgia under any circumstances. To them the only plausible solutions would be either full independence or at other times associate membership of the Russian Federation. Since October 1999 when they declared their independence they haven’t moved from that position. In unofficial discussions reported by Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe (2003) Abkhaz leaders expressed their preference for a model of distribution of competences based on the sovereignty of the units, something like the association of the Marshall Islands with the United States, that would provide Abkhazia with full international legal personality and the right to secession. In the discussions, “some Abkhaz expressed the opinion that democratization—not reunification with Georgia—was the first priority for Abkhazia. Such a reunification was viewed as rendering the task of democratization more difficult” (Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe, 2003). Some Abkhaz officials supported the idea that declaring independence was the last resort as the Abkhaz proposals before and after the war were met with a counterproductive stance by Georgia.

Footnotes

1. Coppieters, Bruno, Kovziridze Tamara and Leonardy, Uwe. (2003), “Federalization of Foreign Relations: Discussing Alternatives for the Georgian Abkhaz Conflict, Harvard University, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Caspian Studies Program, Working Paper Series, No. 2.
2. Coppieters, Bruno. (2001), “Federalism and Conflict in the Caucasus”, Central Asian and Caucasian Prospects, Royal Institute of International Affairs.
3. Cornell, E. S. (2002), “Autonomy as a source of Conflict: Caucasian Conflicts in Theoretical Pespective”. World Politics, p. 245-76

Please tell me your suggestions or corrections. Donnerstag 22:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the Abkhaz side juridically justified Abkhaz independance with mainly these two lines of thought:

- Soviet law actually granted entities such as Abhazia souvereignity upon Georgian declaration of independance. When Georgia did so, Abkhazia decided to stay inside the Soviet Union, as a full union republic, and when the SU was disbanded, Abkhazia automatically became independant.

Complete falsehood. I have studied Soviet Constitution during my studies at York. There is no single chapter on self determination by Autonomies (both republic or "oblast"). Only Soviet Socialist Republics had right to hold a referendum and determine the question of sovereignty or independence. Abkhazia has never been a Soviet Socialist Republic. She had no rights based on Soviet constitution to separate from the Soviet Republic of Georgia (CCP Gruzija). Many times Soviet leadership tried to change that article in Soviet constitution in favour of autonomies self determination but they failed to do so due to many factors (both juridical and political). Please don’t mislead the public and maintain NPOV. Noxchi Borz 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

- Georgian parliament declared that all treaties, laws and agreements made during Soviet rule were null and void. Abkhazia however was not subordinated to Georgia until 1931, it had previously been of the same status as Georgia. Thus Georgia's cancelling of all Soviet laws automatically left Abkhazia legally outside Georgia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 25 February 2006.

Very well. We should mention that in the justifications for independence. It sounds pretty accurate. But do you know of any reference on this (online or text, doesn't matter) so that we can give a citation? Donnerstag 16:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I've only got a link to that law, unfortunately not from a neutral site: http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/ussr_law.shtml —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 26 February 2006.

It seems accurate. I did a google search, see http://www.c-r.org/accord/nk/accord17/d05.shtml -Donnerstag 12:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

More references for future use

1. BBC News. (2005), “Regions and Territories: Abkhazia”. <www.newsvote.bbc.co.uk>
2. Black, J. L. (2004), “Vladimir Putin and the New World Order: Looking East, Looking West?” Rowman and Littlefield Publishers Inc., Oxford, U.K.
3. Caucaz Europe News, (2005), “Timeline of the Presidential election of Abkhazia in October 2004. <www.caucaz.com>.
4. Chauffour, Célia and Francois Gremy. (2005), “Abkhazia is too frequently regarded as a devoted Russian doll” Caucaz Europe News. <www.caucaz.com>.
5. Chauffour, Célia. (2005), “Abkhazia: Victory of the frontrunner Sergey Bagapsh on the elections held on January 12th, 2005”. Caucaz Europe News. On 13/01/2005 <www.caucaz.com>.
6. Cornell Caspian Consulting. (2002), “The South Caucasus: A Regional Overview and Conflict Assessment, Conflict and Security Assessment”.
7. Evers, Frank. (2003), “Mission Information Package South Caucasus”, Centre for OSCE Research, Institute for Peace Research and Security Policy at the University of Hamburg.
8. Goor, Luc, Van de and Martina Huber. (2002), eds, “Mainstreaming Conflict Prevention: Concept and Practise, CPN Yearbook 2000/01, Nomos Verlagsgesellschaft, Baden-Baden.
9. Hewitt, George. “Post-war Developments in the Georgian-Abkhazian Dispute”.
10. International Security Network, (2005), “ISN Security Watch January 2005”.
11. MacFarlane, Neil, S. (1999), “The Southeast European Challenge: Ethnic Conflict and the International Response” / Hans-Georg Ehrhart, Baden-Baden, Nomos Verl. Ges.
12. ---. (2002), “Reassessing Conflicts in the Caucasus Region”. Mainstreaming Conflict Prevention.
13. Mackinlay, John and Cross, Peter. (2003), “Regional Peacekeepers: The Paradox of Russian Peacekeeping, United Nations University Press
14. Sabanadze, Natalie. (2002), “International Involvement in the South Caucasus”, European Centre for Minority Issues, Working Paper # 15.
15. Socor, Vladimir., (2004), “From Geneva to Sochi to Dead End in Abkhazia”, Eurasia Daily Monitor, Volume 1, Issue 81, September 09, 2004, Jamestown Foundation.
16. Stewart, Susan. (2003), “The role of the United Nations in the Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict”, Mainstreaming Conflict Prevention.
17. UNOMIG. (2005), “Statement for the Press High-level meeting of the Group of Friends of the Secretary-General”, Geneva, 7-8 April 2005. <www.unomig.org/press/050408/main.asp
18. ---. (2005), “United Nations Involvement”, Online background note. <www.unomig.org>

Donnerstag 22:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

not a word about involvement of Basayev?

His article said it was "crucial".

we'll get there. We will slowly add more info on the subject. Thanks for reminding. Please review the article soon. This article missed many crutial parts. Thanks again. Ldingley 21:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess it should be noted somewhere the Georgians were the majority ethnic group in Abkhazia. --HanzoHattori 21:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The article is being edited by Donnestag, Kober and me. We will add more info as time will allow. Please do not remove reliable data from the article. If you wish to contradict the claims made in the article, please state your arguments backed up by reliable sources (primary and secondary) or/and applicable documents. Let’s keep this article as NPOV and avoid any POV statements or changes. Thanks in advance Ldingley 22:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about?

What is "not NPOV"? Wiki-linking words? Or maybe calling a paramilitary fighters by name, instead of "civilians"? (If so, do you mean civilians mentioned later among casaulties all meant a guys with grenades and machine guns?) Please explain. --HanzoHattori 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, a militia would be possibly a better name - with paramilitaries reserved to, well, a paramilitary supporters of Shevardnadze (if that's what you meant, because I honestly have no idea - are you guarding your vision of this article like this from everyone?). --HanzoHattori 22:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Would you please review all Wikipedia guidlines, especially NPOV (Neutral Point of View) and POV sections (Personal Point of View) and go by the pillars of Wikipedia. You are stating POV claims (without using any reliable sources). Where are your sources for such claims? Those are your POV opinions, which are not suitable or exactable for any Wikipedia article. Do not change any info based on un-sources, POV, biased claims which contradicts Wikipedia rule on NPOV. Also please review 3RR rule which limits you to only 3 rv a day, otherwise you will be locked out for 24 hours. Ldingley 23:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. WHAT "POV claims"? That civilian is "any person who is not a combatant"? That's what you mean? That the Georgian civilians in Abkhazia (Abkhaz and the Confederation forces launched a full-scale attack on Sokhumi resulting in large destruction and casualties among the civilians, twice) were in fact armed soldiers? In other words: are you insane? -- HanzoHattori 03:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd advice you to be more constructive in the discussion and not to attack other users.--Kober 05:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The distinction of civilians is they are protected in the war because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS. They're not soldiers, paramilitaries, militiants, policemen, armed rebels, terrorists, even armed criminals, nothing, they are CIVILIANS, non-combatants in times of war. Guys in civilian clothes who don't fight. I can't be more clear on this. I don't know, maybe in Georgia "civilian" means something else, like a "light machinegun crew member doubling as a grenadier", but would you just stick to the international meaning? Also, what wrong is in changing "ethnic conflict" to "ethnic conflict" and such, I'd really like to know what's your problem. --HanzoHattori 04:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't belive that HanzoHattori is informed enough to make changes in this article. Dear friends, rv his changes on this article ASAP. Sosomk 13:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Profile of the Parties

There must be a short outline of both Abkhaz and Georgian profiles. The previous one was full of POVs. Please make your suggestions before i draft the outline. Thanks Ldingley 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

vandalism, POV rv, etc

User:Ghirlandajo Do not vandalize the article due to unfound claims of “nationalist POV.” If you believe so, please use this talk page and present your claims in civilized manner with reliable sources (primary source and secondary source), references, citations or historic documents. Please review the bibliography of the article. Do not use Abkhazia.org as source or any material from the conflicting side. The article is under heavy re-work and most of the materials and info is taken from sources mentioned in Bibliography. The proper citations will be added soon. Do not disturb this process and instead of vandalizing, help out and co-operate. Due to the nature of you being Russian, you have yoru won POV which is unsuitable for Wikipedia NPOV policy. However, it is most important to work and co-operate with any Wiki user and it would be more constructive then vandalistic rv. Start gathering sources and materials and you may change anything you want according to fair NPOV stand. Im looking forward to work with you and co-operate in order to complete this article successfully. Ldingley 15:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please review the Bibliography and sources:

• Chervonnaia, Svetlana Mikhailovna. Conflict in the Caucasus: Georgia, Abkhazia, and the Russian Shadow. Gothic Image Publications, 1994.
• Andersen, Andrew. "Russia Versus Georgia: One Undeclared War in the Caucasus." Published October 2001.
• Lynch, Dov. The Conflict in Abkhazia: Dilemmas in Russian 'Peacekeeping' Policy. Royal Institute of International Affairs, February 1998.
• Marshania L. Tragedy of Abkhazia Moscow, 1996
• White Book of Abkhazia. 1992-1993 Documents, Materials, Evidences. Moscow, 1993.
• Heathe Blair. Ethnic Conflict as a Tool of Outside Influence: An Examination of Abkhazia and Kosovo. Yett Publishing, 2001
• Amy McCallion, Abkhazian Separatism, New York, 1999

Luis, are the numbers of casualties correct? I'm not sure but as far as I remember Georgian government estimates the Abkhaz casulaties at 4,000 and Georgian at 10,000.--Kober 15:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you see i searched for a long time about the true estimates. 10,000 dead was reported just after September 27, 1993. Until 2006, this conflict took away the lives of 30,000 (including Gali offensive, kidnapping, killings in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, etc). Some sources say, 25,000, some 30,000 and others still use old figures of 10,000. Abkhaz side lost 2,500 as I found in Chervonnaia book. Abkhaz separatist web sites claim ridiculous numbers. However, you might be right on 4,000 casualties. Please change it and I’ll search more. Ldingley 15:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Marshania (BTW an Abkhaz) states: The ethnic-cleansing of Georgians is conducted in the most brutal way. The number of civilian casualties and lost without trace goes over 20,000 to say nothing of those wounded, tortured, raped and robbed. 240,000 had been exiled from their dwellings.

However, the refugee organization IAC Abkhazeti, claims 30,000 www.abkhazeti.ru

What do you think? should be change the number to 10,000 of geo dead(announced by Geo govenrment after fall of Sukhumi) and 4,000 abkhaz dead? Ldingley 15:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, Luis. I might be mistaken. How about to put the figures this way: Geo casualties 10,000-30,000; Abkh 2,500-4,000? Once there was a separate section on the conflict zones on Government of Georgia website, and there is now nothing but an "under construction" note. --Kober 15:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Great idea Mr Kober :) Thanks, I'll do that. Ldingley 15:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are rewriting the article, please refrain from using biased language and clean up it whenever possible. Please also refrain from attacking other editors. `'mikka (t) 17:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mr Mikkalai, I’m warning your friend Girla, he made a personal attack against me which was witnessed by other users. I would ask you to also refrain from POV pushing on Georgia related articles (I have noticed you did that before) and respect NPOV pillar. Nobody was attacking editors; Girla made a personal attack and vandalized the article. Please maintain NPOV, and if you want to contest any statement made in the article, first use the talk page with citations and sources. Do not warn people on things which you violate. All the best. Ldingley 18:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

the fact that someone attacked you does not mean you have rights to atack them back.

As for contesting, colleague, you got it all wrong: it is you who has to prove the correctness of the statements by backing bthem with independent sourses when contested. `'mikka (t) 18:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

My dear friend, you never used any sources or have backed up your claims and edits by any reliable reference. I always used reliable sources, and I have never attacked anyone. Please indicate a single sentence were I made a personal attack. Please review the Bibliography and sources which are used by the article. Also, please stop pushing your POVs on many Georgia related articles. Do you have any hidden national agenda on Wikipedia? If not, please let’s maintain NPOV and avoid any conflicts. It’s better to co-operate and work together rather then blaming and attacking senselessly. All the best dear colleagueLdingley

Dear friends, User:Ghirlandajo's attacks are not acceptable. No justification for covering up the reality. Georgians from Abkhazia lost everything morally and physically. Abkhazs and Russians ethnically cleansed not only ethnic Georgians, but all the other etnithities such as Greeks, Jews and etc. This was an act of facism, which has no justification. Those Georgians are considered refugees in their homeland. They lost everything: their homes, reatives, their ancestors graves and erc. User:Ghirlandajo might be very proud of his Cossacks, but this does not justify what they did in Abkhazia. If somebody thinks that the edit is necessary, please discuss it with me, Ldingley and User:Kober. Sosomk 13:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

soviet government

the claim that soviet government inflamed the conflict is not a piece of trivia. First, it must be more detailed. Second, it must be backed by examples and references. `'mikka (t) 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure Mikhail, I agree with you. But before removing please consult other users. reference on Soviet involvment: Chervonnaia, Svetlana Mikhailovna. Conflict in the Caucasus: Georgia, Abkhazia, and the Russian Shadow. Gothic Image Publications, 1994, pages, 24-7, also p.65, 72

It would be more productive if we worked together and reviewed the sources also together.

p.s I welcome your edits and your help! Ldingley 18:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not exactly interested in this topic or familiar with it. (In fact, I am not interested in any politics) I am merely pointing you at some glaring problems seen in the article at the very first glance. `'mikka (t) 18:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mikhail, make changes and fix the glaring problems. You only meke it better. I don't like politics too, but I did lots of research on Post Soviet conflicts. I'll do my best to fix the glaring problems but I can't do it alone. Ldingley 18:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Negative facts require reference

All sentences about executions and atrocities must be backed by references. You promised to provide references, I know. Please start from these. `'mikka (t) 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes Sir! I'll do as you said. I agree, all talk about executions, atrocities, etc, must have references. That’s why i tagged the article. Ldingley 18:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ldingley 's citations are amazing! I am just wondering why do we have to cite every single sentence, when the Russian articles tell lies. mikka, I would advise to you that you go ahead and cite the articles about Russia. Sosomk 13:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Roots of the conflict

The article now occurs biased because it says nothing about real roots of the conflict. I don't know anything, but frankly I don't believe that the main reason was pure separatism and Soviet manipulation. Usually all these stories are rooted in real or perceived discrimination of a minority. The article bypasses this issue completely. I am repeating: "real or perceived". `'mikka (t) 18:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If you find a source about "minority discrimination" in Abkhazia before the war, you are welcome to edit the root cause. From all sources which I have researched, I found: 1. There was no ethnic hatred, bad blood between Georgians-Abkhaz before Soviets established their rule in Georgia. The problem started with the issue of separatism and further escalated into violent separatism. Before you say biased, please tell us how biased it is and what sources say otherwise. Ldingley 18:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was reluctant to be involved here, but sorry man, you did your homework poorly. There was political discrimination. It looks like you have been reading mostly Russophobic sources, which is probably not your fault. `'mikka (t) 21:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Im sorry but you make empty accusations against me. All of my sources are reliable and mainly western. Please refrain from attacking me based on your opposing views on the topic and respect NPOV. Also review sources which are available and based on proper research make additional changes and edits on Abkhazia related articles. I will keep monitoring your changes in order to comply with Wiki rules on NPOV Ldingley 21:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW i was in Abkhazia prior, during and after the conflict. Please stop making insults and review Wikipedia:Civility. Thanks. Ldingley 21:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I wrote "it is not your fault". Of course Western sources tend to be russophobic. BTW, judging from your temper, I woud think that you are rather Tengiz than Luis. Chill. `'mikka (t) 22:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Listen Mikhail, please refrain from POV statements and violating NPOV. Nobody in Tbilisi was protesting for dissolution of Abkhaz autonomy, also what nationalists? The ones who were massacred by Soviet army on April 9 and most of these massacred were 17 year old woman? This is not a place for Russian propaganda. I want to ask you again to maintain NPOV, research the topic well and present sources to support your claims. So far, you have failed to provide any source, reference and based on your edits its an obvious that you only intend to manipulate data and implement your POVs. Your comments will be rmeoved. Please see the tag aboveLdingley 22:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Mikhail, thats a personal attack: "judging from your temper, I woud think that you are rather Tengiz than Luis" Ldingley 22:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that calling you Tengiz is an insult? `'mikka (t) 23:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"What nationalists?" Georgian ones, which demanded secession from USSR. Just like Abkhazian ones demandes secession from Gerogia. Now, how about a little NPOV here? `'mikka (t) 23:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Also please stop acting like a cry-baby. I am not sayin anything about your numerous accusations of me pushing Russian POV. How funny to read them after reading some Russian complaining to another: "Why this Mikka is a Russophobe? Is he a Pole or what?" `'mikka (t) 23:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Reworking

Well, I'd ask all users to maintain a sort of status quo here until we find a final way how to develop the article. Let's discuss even a single word before its inclusion in the text. Ldingley has got a plenty of resources and documents related to the conflict and I think he is the best authority here on this particular issue.

I'd like also to remind our Russian colleagues that this is a very sensitive area and it would be really great if they refrain from posting the comments that are offensive to Georgians.--Kober 05:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

very bad

"A Russophobic LDingley aggressively pushes his POV in Georgian-Abkhaz conflict despite myself being exceptionally mild with my changes after ghirla asked me to keep an eye. Judging from his swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist, contrary to the photo in his user page."

Very wrong thing to write: "swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist " Also "Tengiz rather than Luis." Meaning, all georgians are hot tempered, ill behaved, and therefore damn Gruzin! This is definitely a national insults to Georgian users of Wikipedia. A typical discriminatory remark makes me assume that our common friend Mikahil is not that mild as he perceives. Now how do we at Wikipedia treat national Discrimination, personal attacks (please quote even one sentence where im being Russo phobic), personal insults (I'm turns out to be a Georgian nationalist sock) and violation of NPOV policy? Ldingley 15:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No I am not mild and I despise personally you regardless your nationality, but nevertheless I did not revert your contributions by a single hit of the button. And yes, your behavior reminds me quite a several exceptionally aggressive Georgians I've seen here. And no I did not suspect that you are a hot-tempered Italian or Lebanese, guess why? And the keyword here is "hot tempered" not "georgian", so your "national discrimination" is a red herring.

And your Russophobia is displayed by stubborn revert war with all edit comments kind of "rv Russian POV", as if Russian POV is something so evil that must be reverted on sight without any discussion of its merits. If it is not Russophobia then I am ballerina assoluta. `'mikka (t) 16:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's take an example, Tbilisi demonstrations. OK. I made an incorrect phrasing saying something to the end that "Georgians protested against Abkhazian autonomy". If you are so a great expert, why didn't you simply correct the phrase saying that "Georgians protested against Likhny Declaration"? But instead you demonsrated an expertise in handling the "revert button" only. `'mikka (t) 16:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that pointing out to Russian POV makes someone Russophobic. Please don't misuse this word. There're only a few Georgian users on wiki, and I'd like to know where you have met "several exceptionally aggressive Georgians" here. Or is this just you labeling someone who disagrees with you? Also, I'd ask you not to call Georgians who demanded the withdrawal from the USSR nationalists. Kind regards, --Kober 17:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No of course not, "pointing out" is OK. But reverting several contributions on sight with the sole comment that it is "Russian POV" is surely a demonstartion of anti-Russian sentiment. Also didn't it occurred to you why my edits were not labelled as "Abkhazian POV"? The nearest explanation at hand is that to our colleague self-proclaimed expert the "Abkhazian POV" simply does not exist (at least his "extensive research" did not find any traes of it), so the nearest swear word at hand was "Russian POV". The funniest thing is that my anti-Russian addition (in the ""Current status" section about Russia's violations) was also reverted as "Russian POV". If you see any other explanation other than blindness due to Russophobic/mikkaphobic rage (btw I am not Russian), you are welcome to be a public defender. `'mikka (t) 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

"Georgians": no problemo, just don't call Abkhazians nationalists as well. Nery nice intepretation of "NPOV" you have here as I see. `'mikka (t) 17:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you introduced the noble words "Georgian anti-Soviet opposition". Did it ever occur to you that the government of Georgia at these times (1980s) were staunch communists as well? And that "Abkhazian nationalists" were just the same "anti-Communist opposition", opposing to communists on republican level? Also I would suggest someone to count former members of Communist party in governments of all post-Soviet states (with the exception of Baltic States). You will be quite surprized. `'mikka (t) 17:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Most Abkhaz who signed the Lykhny declaration supported the Soviet Union because Georgians opposed it. That's why many Georgians viewed them as the fifth columnists. And I don't appreciate your cynic tone. If you are not able to engage in a normal conversation, I'll have no cease any discussion with you.--Kober 18:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

OK back to normal. I fail to see anything wrong in Abkhaz declaration within the context of the article. Throughout ages smaller entities sought protection from someone by sideing with some larger bullies. Abkhazians didn't like Georgian government's behavior and acted in their interests as they saw fit. BIG BOLD NOTE I have no idea about the history here. I am pointing out that the article is one big white spot with red blobs of blood. It reads as these bad bad Abkhazians backed by even bigger and badder Russia started massacring Georgians for no reason. I am well aware that Russia has live interests here, especially Georgia courting NATO, just like Russia has vested interests in, say, Transnistria, but again, this topic is not covered either. I am retiring from the aricle now. `'mikka (t) 19:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate Mikka's and Irpen's efforts at bringing this page to normalcy. After a flood of Ldingley's edits, the page was ridiculously one-sided and read like an anti-Abkhazian slur by some very angry Georgian who is unable to change the situation. Such an article should be placed on Mr. Ssaskashvili's government site, but it's out of place in an encyclopaedia that professes to stick to neutrality. Pointing this out doesn't mean that you push "pro-Russian POV" and you should understand this, Kober. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 19:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

You will hardly find any other article on Saakashvili's gov site except for the peaceful plan offered to Abkhazia and S. Ossetia and a breif description (quite neutral, btw) of these conflicts. I'm not his big fan, but I cannot understand your irrational disgust towards him. Do you really think he is something close to an apocalyptic beast as illustrated by Russian media? I'm ready to cooperate with you all, but I will never agree to omit even a single fact of ethnic cleansing of Georgians and Russian involvement in the conflict if they are properly referenced and written in an academic style. Most references on that are, however, Western, and mikka considers them Russophobic. So I see no way out of this.

I think the involvement of the third party is needed as I would hardly regard Russian users as a disinterested party in this particular issue. --Kober 04:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

You seem to absolotely refuse to read what I wrote:

• I did not delete anything what your buddy wrote, but your buddy did it to me quite persistently. The whole fuss was not because I deleted "even a single fact". I did delete a phrase or two (but not a single "fact"). But the article still contains lots of poetry suitable for a newspaper, but not for an encyclopedic article, which wait for proper cleanup.
• I am not a Russian.

"apocalyptic beast as illustrated by Russian media?" I suggest you to re-read his wikipedia article and count how many Russian wikipedians edited it. Russophobes will be surprized. `'mikka (t) 04:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

`'mikka (t) 04:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that you deleted something or you were a Rusiian. I just said that you considered Western sources Russophobic.--Kober 04:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"I despise personally you regardless your nationality" I can say the same, a person who results in personal attacks and insults, can not be serious or deserving respect. You haven't seen Scottish temper. BTW Do i also add Russophobic info on People of Ethiopia? I just created this article, maybe you should also edit it in respects with Soviet glorification? There is no point of me fighting here with you and try to convince you otherwise. The only way out as i see is to allow your edits under heavy monitoring of Kober and Khoikhoi. For every edit, provide source and reference. Things like Georgian nationalists (17 years old girls who were mercilessly slaughtered by soviet army) were protesting in Tbilisi on april 9 is unacceptable. However, I'm not going to be involved in this any more. It seems to me that some Russian users here joined up and disturb the work process on Wiki articles. I back down due to impossibility to hold a civilized conversation with you. You have insulted me and I don't want this to go on. So be fair, edit whatever you want, use sources, references and next time avoid personal attacks and insults Ldingley 19:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Very nice flavor of NPOV we have here. "Georgian nationalists" is not OK but "Abkhazian nationalists" is just great. `'mikka (t) 19:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

mikka, why don't you stop making derogatory comments on wiki that Georgians are nationalists. Georgia is democratic country. In my opinion it is the most democratic country in the region and it is an example of democracy to whole Europe and Eurasia.

Abkhazs declared independence when there was a chaos in Georgia and basically thugs were controlling the country. The term anti-georgian discrimination is totally off the point. Georgian are not minority, they lived in Abkhazia for 4,000 years. Northern Caucasians are minorities there who somehow (of course with a big support of Russia) kicked out everybody except of Abkhazs and Russians. Thism however is a facism, so Georia is very democratic country where minorities have lots of rights. They also kicked out lots of Greeks and Jews from the region, so can totally call it Anti-Simetic and Anti-Greek facistic act. Another argument would be that if Georgians discriminate Northern Caucasians, why Gamsakhurdia supported Ichkeria? Obviously, it is a matter of politics and political ideology than the etnithity and ethnic ideology. Russian enjoyed watching Terrorists playing Soccer with the heads of dead Georgians. Sosomk 13:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

merging anonim version

• defend their city -> defending the city

Defening is just better grammar, their somehow imply that it was not Abkhaz. That is POV

• unrecognized region -> unrecognized state

Abkazia is recognized as a Region it is not recognized as an independent state

• result of the Military conflict was a victory of separatists, recignition could not be obtained via military victory

I have removed the following phrase Russia's aim was to create a conflict moment in order to justify its army in the soviet republic and to keep Georgia away from its Pro-EU and Pro-US political purpose to have closer relations with West not with East (Russia)., since it looks like an ungrammatical POV rant, out of place in the article and having no sense in particular. abakharev 09:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Alex, you seem to be more netrual than others. How do you define a state? --Georgianis 11:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Gamsakhurdia never recognized Abkhazia's independence. In 1991, he concluded with Ardzinba and Co a power-sharing agreement that granted to ethnic Abkhazs more power in the autonomous structures. This change in the election law did not satisfy either Georgians (who were in majority and thus offended by the agreement) or Abkhaz. --Kober 11:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

By any means that "political construction" is not a state.--Georgianis 11:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

mistakes

Dear Alex, from where did you get this false information? "Abkhazian separatists supported Zviadists and Zviad Gamsakhurdia at that time recognized independence of Abkhazia " Can you please provide sources and references for such a claim? Also please try to gather all available sources from various documents and when adding something to the article, refer them in the Bibliography or Notes. Please consider to use both primary sources and secondary. I understand that this issue is very sensitive for Russians but trying to implement information which is far from reality is unacceptable for any user. Thanks a lot for your valuable contributions. Ldingley 19:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• Seems to be my mistake indeed. Though if somebody would write the story of the relations between Zviad/Dudaev/Abkhazian separatists it might helpabakharev 00:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

unrecognized region -> unrecognized state

I propose you the following formulation: "Unrecognized Abkhaz authorities".--Georgianis 07:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Title change: Georgian-Abkhaz conflict --> Russian-Georgian war in Abkhazia რჟხ

It's more WP:NPOV the title like this. Actually it's about the Russian-Georgian war in Abkhazia. In Georgia, Russian support for Abkhazian separatists and its manipulation of rebellious Georgian forces under former leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia brought President Eduard Shevardnadze to his knees and compelled him, in October, to join the CIS and, in early 1994, to sign a friendship treaty with Russia. The next wide-scaled bombings of Sukhumi by Russian military aircraft has happened on February 20-th, 1993. This coincides with the intensification of political fight for power between various parties in Tbilissi. The pretext of bombing was the next provocative cannonade by the forces of junta in direction of the military seismological laboratory of Russian troops in Eshera, near Sukhumi.--Georgianis 07:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"south Ossetia"

First bloody conflict between Georgians and Abkhazians, enflamed by Kremlin agents in soviet period (July 15th, 1989) soon was forgotten by both sides, until the bloody coup d'etat, inspired and organized by Moscow and it's emissary, Eduard Shevardnadze, happened in Georgia. --Georgianis 07:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Abkhazian war was unleashed by Shevardnadze "in coordination with Kremlin", as he stated by national TV in August 1992. The aim of Russia was strengthening it's military control on Black Sea shore, depriving Georgia it's north-western territory, whereas regime of Shevardnadze was striving to establish his totalitarian rule in Abkhazia and punishing it's Georgian population, 90% of which supported President Gamsakhurdia. By that reason Sukhumi was bombed by Shevardnadze's aircraft.--Georgianis 07:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

At the same time, taking into account increasing imperial tendencies in Russia and interests of well-known destructive forces, trying to increase their influence in the region, situation can be become more and more dangerous and harmful to the western interests also. Similar tendencies in other former Soviet republics (i.e. in Azerbaijan) shows this evidently.--Georgianis 07:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"The War of Datchas"

The coast between Sochi (today in Russia) and Suchumi, the capital of Abkhasia, is full of sea-side resorts and beautifull long sand-strands - as well as datachas of former Soviet politicians and high military officers. Many of locally based Russian-generals disliked the idea of losing their possessions here, and this appears to have been one of main reasons for their support of Abkhasians in this conflict. This, in turn, is also the reason why the Abkhasian war against Georgia is sometimes called "The War of Datchas".Georgianis 07:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Rise of racism and xenophobia

The war and the associated Caucasian terrorism in Russia resulted in growing intolerance and racist violence in Russia, directed in a great part against the people from Caucasus. Even while the Russian authorities are unlikely to label attacks on people with dark skin as racist, preferring calling this "hooliganism", a report in November 2005 found that murders officially classified as racist more than doubled in Russia between 2003 and 2004 from around 20 to at least 45.

A nationwide opinion poll in 2005 found that 61% of respondents approved of the "Russia for Russians" slogan, almost twice the 31% level recorded in 1998. [1] According to the 2006 poll by the Public Opinion Foundation, 12% of Russians see "positive ideas" in fascism; 24% think that people who hold fascist views do not constitute a danger to society. --Georgianis 09:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Blind revert

Alex, please just don't blind revert. Thank you. --Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This paragraph I proposed you above for discussion.

At the same time, taking into account increasing imperial tendencies in Russia and interests of well-known destructive forces, trying to increase their influence in the region, situation can be become more and more dangerous and harmful to the western interests also. Similar tendencies in other former Soviet republics (i.e. in Azerbaijan) shows this evidently.

Please don't blind revert. --Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Some new issues

[deleted a few megabytes of text, pasted from an outside source] --Irpen 20:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The above text is from the War and Secession: A Moral Analysis of the Georgian–Abkhaz Conflict Coppieters, Bruno. You can buy online. -- Georgianis | (t) 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved the megapaste from above to a subpage at Talk:Georgian-Abkhaz conflict/War and Secession. The reasons are explained at User talk:Georgianis. --Irpen 20:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

third-party

I totally agree with Kober: "I think the involvement of the third party is needed as I would hardly regard Russian users as a disinterested party in this particular issue." This has gone too far, and all thanks to some users who consider Western sources as Russophobic. I will contact User:Donnerstag, the original author of this article, also User:Khoikhoi and others to help out. Russian involvement seems conflicting due to political reality concerning Abkhazia and Russia. Therefore, this article will always suffer. I will contact other users for help. Thanks Kober. Ldingley 14:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW on September 14 (today) 1992, the war started in Abkhazia. Ldingley 14:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Luis proposed something really good here. However I would like to remind to our russians colleagues that "Georgian POV" is not a valid reason for revert. Thank you. --Georgianis 15:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I will also ask one Abkhaz (Timur Tshizba) I know online to be involved in this too. For adding anything to the article, one must back it up with sources and references. I asked Khoikhoi and Donnerstag for help. Thanks. Ldingley 15:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Georgianis I have to remove all materials which do not have sources. However, im very grateful for your contributions and hard work. Many thanks to you. Ldingley 15:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, don't worry, Equal treatment for all of us. --Georgianis 15:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies that I didn't help with the reworking but I have only limited free time now. Besides it took me some hours to understand what’s happening in the article. I think it’s sad that people get disappointed and quit. The main point is to present a well structured, well documented and informative article. We all have to benefit if we refrain from personal attacks. User mikka previously argued that the article is becoming one-sided or anti-Russian and pro-Georgian. Let’s not waste our time and energy in trying to reveal each other’s political affiliations/proclivities and focus on getting things done. A conflict that has claimed thousands of lives and still haunts the lives of people living in the region is too big an issue to be given less and worse coverage than any other topic on WP. Until then only O-Bahn Busway will make it to featured article. I feel I should thank Ldingley for his contributions and particularly for uploading his photos on Wikipedia. Let’s not criticize him before he finishes his work. Generally speaking the article has obviously improved over the last months. A remaining problem is that the discussion looks haphazard and incoherent, perhaps even more than before, possibly because of the many edits, additions and reverts. Of course more cited material is needed so I don’t say we should stop editing. My idea is that a consensually agreed structure and a specific WP: to-do list where everyone can sign up next to what is doing, would help much in avoiding deadlocks and preventing revert wars. In this way everybody who feels strongly about the issue should concentrate his/her efforts on compiling citations and documentation for his point of view. Since there are probably three or more point of views on the issue we will need at least three separate sections.I will now work in the direction of agreeing a structure for the article. Best Regards, Donnerstag 17:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

BRAVO! Finally a truly constructive approach. Dear Donnerstag, remove any material which is un-sources, or poses POV. Im ready and looking forward working with you to improve this article. Many thanks for you aid in the time of need. All the best. Ldingley 18:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for coming Donnerstag. I proposed above some issues. Maybe you can look at them. Actually I see this more like Russian-Georgian war rather than Abkhaz-Georgian conflict. Why? Because Abkhazians are just 200-250,000 and were largely supported by Russia who was behind this scenario. -- Georgianis | (t) 17:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the below lines express very much the cruel reality, so it's not about any Georgian-POV here, even if "Georgian POV" is not a valid reason for revert. Thank you.

At the same time, taking into account increasing imperial tendencies in Russia and interests of well-known destructive forces, trying to increase their influence in the region, situation can be become more and more dangerous and harmful to the western interests also. Similar tendencies in other former Soviet republics (i.e. in Azerbaijan) shows this evidently. Georgianis | (t) 17:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Caption disagreement

I don't support such a blind revert. My arguments are:

• we should keep only what is official here, that means a NPOV version: to say that "correcting the misleading caption one more time, it was the city of many ethnicities not just "their" as implied in caption, if rephrased, make sure the meaning is preserved" [2] is very POV. What do you mean? That this city is not part of Georgia or what? It is. So, if it is that means that "Georgian residents of Sukhumi defending the city, 1993" is very correct.

I will support only this formulation: Georgian residents of Sukhumi defending the city, 1993 It's about their country, their city.

• Irpen shows that he's just blind reverting. He came here to be edit-worrior.

Georgianis | (t) 20:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, please remove the whole copy-pasted chunk as I explained to you at your talk. This is extremely disruptive. Provide a link to the source or, if there is none, say so, and we can move it to a sub-page.

Second, avoid inflammatory section headings as well as the edit summaries.

Third, the caption implied that Sukhumi was a Georgian city. In fact, it was a multi-ethnic city and you know that well. I beleive that those residents pictured are from Sukhumi but the city was no more "there" than of the other ethnicities that lived there for a very long time. As such, the caption was misleading and I corrected it. --Irpen 20:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

First, till now, I've seen only your edit summaries that are inflamatory.

Second, you try to imply that Sukhumi is not a Georgian city. Well, in which country is it? Is it in Ukraine? No. It's in Georgia. So, as long it's official in Georgia that means it's a Georgian city and Georgians are defending their city not another city, but their city. As such, your caption was misleading and must be corrected. -- Georgianis | (t) 20:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not trying to imply anything about Sukhumi's being Georgian or not. It was a part of the Georgian republic, that's for sure. At the same time it was populated by many ethnicities and the caption makes a wrong implication. My caption says that these Georgians were indeed the residents of Sukhumi. But it was the city of all its residents, not of Georgians only. That it was a part of Georgia, is a political matter and a separate one.

Finally, I corrected one more time the inflammatory section heading to make the discussion in this page possible. If you revert this again, it will speak only about your desire to discuss the matters (or lack of it). If I find working with you impossible, I will elaborate a detailed objections list at this tag, place a "totallydisputed" tag over the whole article and will let you sort this out. Take care, --Irpen 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)