Talk:Dervish movement (Somali)

Map

I was wondering if there is any map that could show the boundries of the Dervish State. Because i see several maps that are used in the scramble for Africa, Italian Somaliland etc, that are contrasting this article. Runehelmet (talk) 18:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I looked at a series of atlases by Kwamena-Poh and others--none map the so-called "state." It was not recognized by Ethiopia or anyone else. Rjensen (talk) 02:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

source

this quote (In 1897, Hassan left Berbera. On this journey, at a place called Daymoole, he met some Somali children who were being looked after by a Catholic Mission. When he asked them about their clan and parents, the Somali orphans replied that they belonged to the "clan of the (Catholic) Fathers." This reply shook his conscience, for he felt that the "Christian overlordship in his country was tantamount to the destruction of his people's faith." ) need a source and it contradicts that British authorities prohibited Christian missionaries in British Somaliland.British authorities prohibited [[Christian missionaries]] in [[British Somaliland]]

P.S where is Daymoole?Hadraa (talk) 00:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This is basically more of a Somali myth then reality. Hassan never met Christian children in 1897. It was sultan Nur according to all British archives.

Daymoole mission branch opened in 1906 so how is it possible Hassan supposedly saw the mission in that location some 10 years earlier.

According to James Hayes Salder the Christian children incident originated from sultan Nur. It was him who brought the incident to the mullahs tariiqa in qoob fardood in June 1899.

This particular incident which sparked the dervish rebellion has nothing to do with mullah Hassan.

I suggest to the author to either attribute the incident to its original person or remove it from the page.

The " dervish state " page is full of inaccuracies from dates. ( dervish assembled in Burao and declared war in 1899 not 1898). The dervish had no state of their own they became an Italian subject after signing the Ilig treaty 1906.

In the economic section the entire section is unsubstantiated claim. The dervish came to trade to Berbera and sold and bought their supplies from there till 1907 at least. Las Qori was in British hands till 1908. XKeyse (talk) 17:00, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Somaliland

There is no need to edit war over everything. The Dervish rebellion happened in part of what was known at the time as British Somaliland protectorate. If British Somaliland is today part of Somaliland then it follows that this page should also include Somaliland as a tag.Kzl55 (talk) 11:15, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

With exception of 3 or 4 years all the rest of the 20 years dervish rebellion took place in Somaliland .

Am not sure why the creator of the page is using the term " Somalia " in the article know fully well that term only referred to Italian colony south of Majertenia. XKeyse (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Name change proposal

Would like to get some opinions on a name change proposal for this article. A more appropriate name is Dervish uprising/resistance/movement. Markus V. Hoehne discusses this specific point: A ‘state’ implies a minimum of centralised and institutionalised power (i.e., a government), a territory and a population. The Somali Dervish state indeed featured a clear centralised governance structure, with Sayid Mohamed Abdille Hassan on top... The Somali Dervish state never had a clearly demarcated territory. The Dervishes operated between different temporary local centres (e.g., Aynabo, Buuhoodle, Eyl, Taleeh) in northern Somalia and, for a shorter period, had also stations in central Somalia such as Beledweyn. When confronted with superior colonial forces, their usual strategy was to retreat to the sparsely inhabited and arid hinterland. Also the population of the Somali Dervish state fluctuated. It consisted largely of the close patrilineal relatives and wives of the followers of Sayid Mohamed Abdille Hassan. Only temporarily did the Dervishes establish more permanent centres of power and ruled over larger areas. Therefore, it is appropriate to speak of the Somali Dervish movement/state [1]. Abdullah Mohamoud discusses the Dervish in the context of a resistance movement: "Third and most critical was the ar between Dervish Muslim resistance movement and the colonial state. The long struggles of the Dervish movement (1900-1920) against the colonial domination have been extensively document so further repetition is not necessary."[2] Other examples include [3] and [4].Kzl55 (talk) 12:05, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

If the requirements to be a state are as follows 1. a defined territory 2. permanent population, 3. government and 4. the capacity to entire into relations with other States. Then the Dervish doesn't fufill the criteria to be considered a state because they clearly lacked 1 and 2. So i agree with you on the name change, i think Dervish movement would be a more apt name for this article. GeelJire (talk) 07:02, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. It also happens that "Dervish movement" is used in reputable sources more than "dervish revolt"/"dervish uprising"/"dervish resistance". If there are no major objections I will make the necessary changes. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

i oppose the page move because moving the page would violate WP:COMMONNAME. Thylacoop5 (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Most reputable sources refer to Dervish as a movement/resistance/rebellion and not a state, please see above. For that reason a change is appropriate for this article. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Thylacoop5 Please explain these edits: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. It seems you have taken the unilateral step to go to the various titles suggested above and preemptively created redirects to unrelated Mahdist War to prevent the name change of this article. This is disruptive editing, I suggest you stop and engage in the talk page. --Kzl55 (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

How is it unrelated when the term appears four times on the article? Thylacoop5 (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

You went through every single suggestion on this talk page and unilaterally decided to create redirects to a different page presumably because you opposed the consensus reached on this talk page. This is disruptive editing. Please provide an explanation or you will be reported. The suggested term Dervish movement is more relevant to this article and not Mahdist War per [10] and [11]. --Kzl55 (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Thylacoop5 please cease the disruptive title changes. You have not explained your edits yet. There is agreement in this talk page that Dervish movement is the more appropriate title, this is accepted by GeelJire and myself, it is also supported by coverage in reputable sources [12] and [13]. Please cease these disruptive edits. You have now made the title originally suggested on this talk page (Dervish movement) into a redirect page to Mahdist War despite it being more appropriate for this article per sources above, this necessitated addition of (Somali) to the title. Any further moves will further disrupt the article. Any thoughts on this Cordless Larry, Ms Sarah Welch? --Kzl55 (talk) 20:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Thylacoop5, Kzl55: The better title is one that reflects the peer-reviewed scholarly sources and equivalent RS. I see much support for Dervish movement (or Somali Dervish Movement). For example:

Quote: "The colonial partitions of Somalia which took place toward the end of the nineteenth century did nothing to destroy or even to diminish the practice of oral literature, and in fact the fierce resistance to foreign rule by the Somali Dervish Movement (1900–1921) stimulated [...]" in BW Andrzejewski, The literary culture of the Somali people, Journal of African Cultural Studies, 2011

Quote: "As the Dervish movement spread, trade in the Ogaden and the British protectorate came to a standstill [...]", Robert L Hess, The Journal of African History, Volume 5, Issue 3, Cambridge University Press, 1964

Quote:" Worse still for the British, Yasu's policies seemed to give a new lease of life to the Sayyid's Dervish movement whose fortunes had tended to decline over the previous two years. [...]", PK Kakwenzaire, Transafrican Journal of History, 1985

Quote: "For several years, previous to his departure with Stanle Emin had been cut off from communication with the Sudan by the Dervish movement, and had [...]", JA Meldon, Journal of the Royal African Society, Oxford University Press, 1908

Quote: "[...] the genres of classical oral poetry most often employed by the Somali Dervish movement against the Ethiopian (Amharic), British, and Italian colonizers of the Horn of Africa [...]", JW Johnson, Research in African Literatures, Vol. 15, No. 4, Indiana University Press, 1984

With exceptions, we should avoid 1908 and other colonial era dated sources. Here is one exception, where the title "Dervish movement" has evidently been used in publications for over a hundred years. Unless you - Thylacoop5 - provide compelling evidence in equivalent RS for an alternate title, my support is to keep/WP:Salt this article with "Dervish movement" or "Dervish movement (Somali)" or "Somali Devish movement" as the title. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Your input is appreciated Sarah, and the list of RS usage of Dervish movement is very helpful. There seems to be an agreement on "Dervish movement" or "Dervish movement (Somali)"/"Somali Dervish movement" as the title. Perhaps adding "Somali" is helpful avoiding potential confusion with other movements of similar nature? In which case "Somali Dervish movement" might be the one to pick? Any thoughts? Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I favor Somali Dervish movement more, both per RS and for style. The other two titles may be okay too. Please consider waiting for a few weeks patiently for additional comments and suggestions if any, before deciding on the next step. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:03, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I second the Somali Dervish movement title for all the above reasons. And I am most certainly happy to wait a few weeks, the discussion was actually started more than a year ago, so a few more weeks is not a problem at all. Again, appreciate your input Sarah. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:CANVASSING does not constitute a consensus (diff). Thylacoop5 (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Thylacoop5- I disagree, Kzl55 Asking me of my opinion does not constitute canvassing. If you read WP:CANVASSING it is clear that it falls under appropriate notification, as i am an editor who has made substantial contribution on Dervish related topics on numerous articles, including this one. Also, i had no prior opinions regarding the name change.GeelJire (talk) 06:12, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Accidental Cut and paste move

Trying to revert Thylacoop5's disruptive edits, i mistakenly WP:CUTPASTE the article instead of simply moving it due to my inexperience as an editor. I placed a WP:HISTMERGE tag so an Admin can hopefully move the history of Dervish State(currently a redirect) to Dervish movement (Somali). I performed the tagging while logged out, i am the I.P 85.210.182.208. Apologies for any inconveniences i may have caused.GeelJire (talk) 07:14, 15 September 2018 (UTC)