User talk:Rjensen

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the latest archive is Archive 28 as of 14 Feb 2017

Reference errors on 15 February[edit]

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Re:[edit]

The deletion of the "Military Production During WWII" Was not vandalism, and I am hardly new, just not logged into my account because it's a new device. I removed all 10,000 words because the article had numerous issues, with absolutely no citations or sources. The values are ridiculous, Germany did not have 1.5 Million Naval personal, the table only lists them as having just over 2,000 ships, how do you fit 1.5 million people on 2000 ships? . Also, Germany has 21 Million combat personal and only 0.3 million labourers? Whilst the UK has 14 Million combat personal and 14 million labourers?

Look, 90% of the values were empty, none of them had sources, and half of the values that were included are beyond nonsensical. Deleting the article was not vandalism, it was an attempt to reset an article so as to encourage users to rebuild it from the start with actual values, from actual sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.109.221 (talk) 11:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

when you sign in anonymously you lose all credibility. The only specific complaint is re size of Germany Navy. Deer & Foot, Oxford Companion (p 468 citing Overy) gives 810,000 on duty in 1944--add in losses (185,000 p 469). that's a million right there, not counting turnover. You give no estimate and no RS, which is a serious defect in your argument. Erase an entire major article again and you risk getting blocked for vandalism Rjensen (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Partition of India[edit]

I agree with the spirit of your recent edit. We do need to acknowledge the Labor government's ideological antecedents somewhere. However, that earlier statement, which you've revised, was sourced to a British writer, not to Indian nationalist historians, and it didn't say that Attlee was driven to decolonize by the mutinies, only that he was spurred into taking action (or words to that effect). You might want to leave out the "Indian nationalist" bit because it sounds like an opinion (though one I more or less agree with). Attlee, I believe, made his first implicit support of dominion status in the House of Commons in 1931. See a post on Wikipedia which I am copying below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:43, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Attlee was one of the early backers of India's independence, long before WW2. He had gone to India for the first time in 1928. He revisited for many months with his wife in 1929. On 25 November 1931, Attlee spoke in the House of Commons: ‘we in this party stand for India’s control of her own affairs ... our position is that India, as has been said, must be allowed to make her own mistakes." (Hansard, HC 1931– 32, vol. 260 (23 November– 11 December) column 416, 25 November 1931.)

(From: Nicklaus Thomas-Symonds (2012). Attlee, A Political Biography, IB Tauris B.) "If Attlee’s interest in India had been peripheral prior to the Simon Commission, it had now become central to his political aims. On 2 December 1931, Attlee spoke in a debate on the government’s policy on India after the second ‘Round Table Conference’, which Gandhi attended after agreeing to call off his campaign of civil disobedience in a deal with the viceroy, Lord Irwin. The prime minister opened the debate, with Attlee making the second speech on the problems of India: ‘On their successful solution depends not only the future ... of ... people in India, not only the future of our own country, but ... the future of the world. I believe the solution of the questions between Europe and Asia will depend very largely on what is done.’ (Hansard, HC 1931– 32, vol. 260 (23 November– 11 December) column 1118, 2 December 1931.)"
That speech was prophetic, for the independence of India was followed by widespread British decolonization (Ceylon, Burma, Malaya, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika, Guyana, the West Indies, ...) in the following decades. Attlee was a socialist, responsible for creating Britain's National Health Service, post-WW2 nationalizations, and other welfare policies. Moreover, like Gandhi, he was much influenced by Ruskin's Unto This Last. He had been committed to decolonization in India for a full 16 years before 1947. Very little chance he would have attributed Britain's decision to decolonize to these last minute additions to the mix. He may have listed those as the reasons to hurry decolonization and to set a firm date for the transfer of power, but that is hardly the reason why the British left India. It is at best one of the reasons (along with Britain's depleted post-war economy, Direct Action Day and the prospects of more Hindu-Muslim violence, ...) why the British left India in a hurry. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:43, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I think we're in agreement here. The mutiny was strongly opposed by the Raj and by Congress but was strongly supported by CP India, which I think still wants to claim credit. I will revise a bit. Rjensen (talk) 14:13, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

March Madness 2017[edit]

G'day all, please be advised that throughout March 2017 the Military history Wikiproject is running its March Madness drive. This is a backlog drive that is focused on several key areas:

  • tagging and assessing articles that fall within the project's scope
  • updating the project's currently listed A-class articles to ensure their ongoing compliance with the listed criteria
  • creating articles that are listed as "requested" on the project's various task force pages or other lists of missing articles.

As with past Milhist drives, there are points awarded for working on articles in the targeted areas, with barnstars being awarded at the end for different levels of achievement.

The drive is open to all Wikipedians, not just members of the Military history project, although only work on articles that fall (broadly) within the military history scope will be considered eligible. More information can be found here for those that are interested, and members can sign up as participants at that page also.

The drive starts at 00:01 UTC on 1 March and runs until 23:59 UTC on 31 March 2017, so please sign up now.

For the Milhist co-ordinators. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) & MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:24, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

This Month in Education: [February 2017][edit]

Wikipedia Education Globe 2.pdf
This Month in Education

Volume 6 | Issue 1 | February 2017

This monthly newsletter showcases the Wikipedia Education Program. It focuses on sharing: your ideas, stories, success and challenges. Be sure to check out the full version, and past editions. You can also volunteer to help publish the newsletter. Join the team!

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From the Community

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An auspicious beginning at university in Basque Country

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The Brief Story of Mrgavan WikiClub

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We hope you enjoy this issue of the Education Newsletter.-- Sailesh Patnaik using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

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Marriott[edit]

Everyone in the coalition had a party bias, that was part of the problem! But more seriously, why do you wish to conceal from readers the fact that he was a Conservative politician? DuncanHill (talk) 01:23, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

no concealment --everyone can read his own page. He was a very good dedicated historian with no political activities of the usual sort. he was elected for Oxford and that happened in 1917 after the 1915 event. His analysis is straight history and not in any way partisan or controversial. (I read it carefully). Rjensen (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
To say "no political activities of the usual sort." is bizarre. He was first a Tory candidate in 1885. As Lawrence Goldman in the ODNB says:

"Marriott had been adopted as a Conservative parliamentary candidate for East St Pancras in 1885, though he subsequently withdrew his candidacy. In the following year he was defeated in the general election as Conservative candidate for Rochdale. In 1914 he was defeated in a contest for the Conservative candidacy for the vacant Oxford University seat in parliament. But in March 1917 he was elected unopposed as Conservative MP for Oxford City, a beneficiary of the party-political truce under the wartime coalition. He was re-elected in the ‘coupon’ election of 1918, but defeated by the Liberal candidate in the general election of 1922. He returned to the Commons after the general election of 1923 as MP for York. There he was defeated in 1929 by a Labour candidate, and retired from active politics."

So a history of Conservative candidature, preceding the wartime truce. The ODNB also notes that his political views impacted his performance as secretary of the Oxford Extension Delegacy, from 1895:

"In 1895 Marriott succeeded Sadler as secretary of the Oxford extension delegacy, a position he only relinquished in 1920. Despite a slightly pompous exterior, he had a capacity for friendship, and was held in high regard by the lecturers he recruited. Marriott was more comfortable lecturing in county towns than in working-class communities. As a Conservative he was in a minority among the many extension lecturers who held progressive sympathies. This was inconsequential until the coincidence of two developments in the Edwardian period: the growth of a movement specifically for workers' education, and Marriott's growing commitment to politics. The foundation in 1903 of the Workers' Educational Association, and its development, in association with Oxford, of the first university tutorial classes, taught in 1908 by R. H. Tawney, not only undermined Marriott's position in the extension delegacy, but was opposed by him because intrinsically partisan. This led to his isolation, and Oxford's tutorial classes committee was established in independence of the existing extension administration. Marriott contributed to this isolation by presenting his political views in Conservative journals. Although sympathetic to the education of working people, he deprecated trade union activism, the growth of socialism, and measures after 1908 for public welfare. He was regarded by some students as ‘an obscurantist and reactionary’ (J. Marriott, 139) and his influence diminished. From 1910 he turned towards national affairs, especially maintenance of the union with Ireland."

So, a history of active partisan engagement, and his political positions affecting his work at Oxford. DuncanHill (talk) 15:05, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
the issue is the paragraph that is quoted, and none of your sources mentions any problem. You have not identified any problem with it. it reflects the unanimous consensus of scholars. it in no way supports Conservative partisanship -- all historians in fact give Lloyd George the chief credit. As for the Labour Party it's not at issue here but you should read pp 376-77 also p 159 Rjensen (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
The Signpost
27 February 2017
What? Is that a reply to someone else? The paragraphs I have quoted show 1) long history of active Conservativism, and 2) political problems at Oxford related to, amongst other things, "[his] growing commitment to politics" and "presenting his political views in Conservative journals". I didn't mention the Labour Party, except in quoting his defeat in 1929. DuncanHill (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Let me make it clear, as you seem to be struggling to understand. I have not objected to the paragraph about the Munitions Act, what I have objected to is your removal of the information that he was a Conservative politician. DuncanHill (talk) 17:23, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
no the issue is your unfounded assumption that if a scholar runs for office as a Conservative then he is an enemy of the Liberal party and cannot be trusted. No RS makes that suggestion so Wiki should not make it. Do you see a political bias in the Wiki statement that derives from Marriott's Conservative party support? I simply do not see it. If there is a mis-characterization in the article please specify what it is. I do not see any problem nor any pro-Conservative-party partisanship. Marriott gives Liberal Lloyd George the major credit as do all RS I have looked at such as Gilbert, Gibbs, Taylor, & Medlicott. Rjensen (talk) 17:29, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I made no such assumption and said nothing that could be construed by a rational person to suggest that I did. As I said above, I do not object to the paragraph. If I had, I would have removed it from some, at least, of the articles you have added it to. Marriott was both a historian and a politician, and was active politically in the time he was writing about here. I did not suggest he could not be trusted, and I did not suggest any bias in that paragraph. Where I do see bias in is your selective use of facts about the writers you promote on Wikipedia, and your blatant ignorance about Marriott's political activities "no political activities of the usual sort"? Active in Conservative undergraduate society, selected as candidate, stood in elections, if these are not "political activities of the usual sort" then what is? Did you say that knowing it to be untrue or did you simply not know what you were talking about? DuncanHill (talk) 17:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
so you see no political bias in Marriott's statement. good. Now what have you discovered about the other scholars used in the article? And by the way, what are YOUR political beliefs? Rjensen (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Why did you make a blatantly untrue statement about Marriott's political activities? DuncanHill (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Marriott "retired from active politics" in 1929, and then wrote six books [The crisis of English liberty; a history of the Stuart monarchy and the Puritan revolution (1930); Makers of Modern Italy: Napoleon-Mussolini, 1931; The English in India: A Problem of Politics, 1932; The life of John Colet (1933); Oxford: its place in national history (1933); Queen Victoria and her ministers 1933] and finally the book in question in 1934. He revised it in the 1940s. all this during retirement from active politics. Rjensen (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
And magically all possibility of him expressing, consciously or unconsciously, any bias or preference for the party of which he had been an active member for all his adult life, or for the attitudes and assumptions which underlay that activism, fell away. Oh dear. DuncanHill (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
In retirement he hid his previous biases so brilliantly that even a highly aggressive enemy a century later could not detect any. That's very impressive. Rjensen (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
It's a shame you can't hide your biases quite as well. Who is this "highly aggressive enemy" of whom you talk? DuncanHill (talk) 18:30, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
let the readers calculate--no need for me to do all the work for them. Rjensen (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I've not made any aggressive comments about or against Marriott, either as a historian or as a politician. I've not suggested any bias on his part, despite your repeated dishonest claims above. I've not lied about his political involvement as you have, and I've not tried to misrepresent his life and works in the way that you have. DuncanHill (talk) 18:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
actually all you've done is make a few minor little edits. The problem is that you have not studied the Munitions Act closely. Rjensen (talk) 18:50, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Again, you ignore the issue. DuncanHill (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

American politics DS[edit]

Please note that there are some WP:Discretionary sanctions (DS) foreseen for American politics pages such as the Democrat Party (epithet) talk page. So please stop insulting me on that page. I'm trying to help. WP:AGF. If you continue to insult me I'll ask an admin to step in and apply DS. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

i think your complaints were out of bounds. And acting on them before discussion was also out of bounds. Note that YOU suggested I post the quotation in question and I did so immediately. It is in a very wiki-like tone. Rjensen (talk) 07:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Thomas J. Kirkpatrick[edit]

I removed the notability tag you placed on the Thomas J. Kirkpatrick article I added, not because I've subsequently received a barnstar and it's military history month (and Kirkpatrick did organize and become captain of Confederate volunteers), but because I believe any elected Virginia state senator by definition meets wikipedia's notability guideline, as I noted on that article's talk page. If you disagree, perhaps you should contribute to the discussion on my talk page concerning our Virginia Constitutional Convention of 1868 project--Fitzpatrick's term as state senator was as a result of it.Jweaver28 (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Conservatism in the United States[edit]

You reverted my edit, but the text remains (without any wikilinks). I was just wikilinking and adding section header. Someone else must have added the content. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:28, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. I was trying to argue that coverage of Trump then a article on conservatism is highly problematic: needs strong, reliable sources. Rjensen (talk) 08:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

weird vandalism[edit]

Kindly visit and skim User talk:Rævhuld. He was once served ANI notice for this strange issue. Thanks a lot. —usernamekiran (talk) 09:21, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I looked at his JFK edit and think it's inside the bounds here, but I disagree with including it. The quote has been repeated in lots of conspiracy books about kennedy but the Kennedy biographers do not use it. No one knows when, where, why or to whom JFK supposedly spoke it. Rjensen (talk) 09:47, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
  • yes, I totally agree with you regarding JFK issue. But did you see his talk page? This guy is really strange. Anyways.
I saw your profile sir. And I feel myself lucky n honoured to have met you. My background is of computer science, but I've passion for history, and I consider myself sort of "computer historian". :-D Your work on wiki, and off wiki is amazing! —usernamekiran (talk) 10:18, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I mean, he created that profile thoughtfully. The user name. And he is not exactly vandalising, but creating disturbances. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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ww1 page - alliances[edit]

Hello again Rjensen, I see what your trying to do re: coalition and alliances. Unfortunately the body of the map states alliance. There is no alliance between Russia and Serbia. Without understanding this you cannot understand how the first world war started. Personally I dont think coalition helps as it suggests a formal alliance. "Alignment" would work, but would need to be changed in the body of the map as well as the descriptor.Keith Johnston (talk) 09:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

"coalition" does not suggest a formal alliance. Rjensen (talk) 09:30, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I would make two points, Serbia is not in a coalition with Russia in July 1914. Secondly, even allowing for disagreement on the first point, your solution to replace alliances with coalition does not effect the body of the map, which therefore remains inaccurate. Keith Johnston (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
on point 2, we need a map and it's very hard to make a perfect one--or use one in copyright. On point 1, what is a better term? the RS use the term: 1) See Nick Shepley (2015) "Russians were building a coalition in the Balkans and were looking to dismember the Austro-Hungarian Empire" 2) David MacKenzie, ‎Michael W. Curran - 2002: "The Central Powers (Germany and Austria- Hungary) now faced a coalition of Serbia, Russia, France, and England." 3) Tucker, World War I: The Definitive Encyclopedia says "the Serbian ally Russia"; 4) Norman Rich - 1992 -"The Russians had long sought to form a coalition of Balkan states" Rjensen (talk) 09:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I would say that this map is better and is available Keith Johnston (talk) 09:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
European diplomatic alignments shortly before the war.
Also,Ponting, Clive (2002). Thirteen Days: The Road to the First World War. Chatto & Windus. ISBN 978-0-7011-7293-0."Russia had no treaty of alliance with Serbia and was under no obligation to support it diplomatically, let alone go to its defence". Keith Johnston (talk) 10:06, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
a) Indeed Russia had no alliance with Serbia but as A-H complained, they were working in coalition with each other. b) The diagram is useful but it has near-zero geography, a key ingredient of maps. For example, one of the biggest problems for the Allies was the geographical disconnect with Russia very far away from UK and France--but the diagram shows them all very close. 1) Wm Mulligan 2010: "Austro-Hungarian leaders recognised that war against Serbia would almost certainly see Russia enter the lists on the side of Belgrade." 2) Alastair Kocho-Williams "Russia could not desert its Serbian ally" [in july 1914] Rjensen (talk) 11:39, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Ok so we agree Russia has no alliance with Serbia. We agree therefore that the existing map is inaccurate. We must also therefore agree that Kocho-Williams is wrong to go as far as to use the word "Serbian ally". The question is how important is the error, and is it important enough to switch from one graphic to another? Is it more important to keep the error and use a map or go for a more accurate graphic without geography? I would say it is. As you know (I can see you are a key contributor to this period from other wiki pages) a key controversy in the origins of WW1 is whether Austria and by extension Germany are deliberately provoking war with Russia or whether they genuinely believe war can be limited to Serbia. We don't have to agree which approach is right (and I can list historians who will take the opposite view of the ones you quote,: Clarke, Ferguson, MacMIllan, Strachan), but I think you must accept by allowing this error to stand (incorrectly stating that Serbia is a Russian "ally"), that this limits readers to only one conceivable line of thinking. If Russia is an ally to Serbia then A-H and Germany must know that war against Serbia means war with Russia. Therefore they are deliberately planning a war against Russia. This is why it is a fundamental mistake to keep this error, not a minor one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston (talkcontribs) 12:16, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
1) maybe 95% of the maps on Wikipedia have flaws--this one in a caption. Maps are Wiki's weak point and we really need a map here. 2) "Ally" does NOT equal alliance. (try: "in 2017 USA and Israel are allies". https://books.google.com/books?id=prVeyvFpa68C&pg=PA1) 3) Serbia asked Russia for help in the July 1914 crisis and go it. that's what allies do. Russia for years had been working to protect Serbia. That's what allies do. [as for the 'guilt' controversy, i'm neutral.] 4) If Russia is an ally to Serbia then A-H and Germany must know that war against Serbia means war with Russia. well A-H certainly thought that was likely --therefore Vienna asked and got protection & approval from Berlin during the crisis. Why? because of Russian role with Serbia. Rjensen (talk) 13:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
1) Might I suggest the best solution is to include a map of Europe in 1914 AFTER the war has started. By then Serbia and Russia are definitely allies! 2) Agreed ally is a euphemism for a multitude of different depths of relationships. However, this is a discussion about the start of a war, where the precise nature of the diplomatic relationships are crucial to our understanding. We can and do talk about France and Russia as allies, meaning the Franco-Russian alliance of 1892. We talk about the German-Austrian alliance meaning the Dual Alliance of 1879. These alliances are treaties with clear obligations and clear meanings. We must therefore be careful to be precise in our language. To allow readers to get the impression that Britain and France are allied in the same way as France and Russia is an error of fact we can correct by not using the word ally or alliance. The same applies to Russia and Serbia. Given the importance of the meaning to pollicyakers in 1914 of what you rightly describe as the "Russian role with Serbia" it is crucial to avoid use of the word ally, as this creates confusion between its euphemistic and precise meanings. Its important we know the Entente, in contrast to the Triple Alliance or the Franco-Russian Alliance, was not an alliance of mutual defence and Britain therefore felt free to make her own foreign policy decisions in 1914. As British Foreign Office Official Eyre Crowe minuted: "The fundamental fact of course is that the Entente is not an alliance. For purposes of ultimate emergencies it may be found to have no substance at all. For the Entente is nothing more than a frame of mind, a view of general policy which is shared by the governments of two countries, but which may be, or become, so vague as to lose all content."Keith Johnston (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I recommend "coalition" which does not have the sense of a formal treaty-based alliance. Meanwhile we can change the visible caption of the map to clarify it. Rjensen (talk) 20:03, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
A coalition is a temporary alliance for combined action. This is not the relationship between Serbia and Russia immediately prior to the war. Neither is it the relationship between Britain on the one hand and Russia and France on the other. Therefore I cannot agree with coalition. Moreover the problems with the map goes beyond the visible caption as the text in the map says "Military Alliances in 1914" and "Slavic Allies" (whatever they might be). In the absence of an alliterative suggestion I would remove the map and, ideally replace it with a map of Europe in 1914 and the graphic previously suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston (talkcontribs) 10:06, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
The caption now explains away the term "alliance". The map does NOT say there was an alliance between Russia and Serbia. (RS use "ally" when there is no treaty--as in Israel is an important American ally.) How about "Serbia was a client state of Russia which protected it against Austria." Clark says Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Sazonov warned Austria in 1914 that Russia "Would respond militarily to any action against the client state." Christopher Clark, The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 (2012) p 481. As for the map, there is no available alternative. I think you may be too picky especially you tolerate geographical errors in your own proposed "map"--it is wildly wrong in its geography. Maybe you think that readers will start blaming Austria as guilty--I can't see how the map would cause that problem. Rjensen (talk) 10:52, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I understand the graphic I propose is a graphic not a map, hence geography is not an issue - but your right that is also contains at least one error (although not one that is as historically significant for the cause of the war). On reflection I see most maps of Europe in 1914 are just as bad or worse in re-inforcing the errors I am complaining about so I agree with you its hard to find a decent alternative. Your right Im particular on the point of there being no alliance between Russia and Serbia because its an error I see often repeated. Of course historians don't tend to dwell on alliances that don't exist, but I admit for years I laboured under the misapprehension that Russia was allied to Serbia, no doubt partly because of inaccurate maps and imprecise use of language in general narratives. I was stunned when reading Ponting on this. It seems to me that both the relationship between Serbia and Russia, and what the Central Powers thought about that relationship prior to the ultimatum, is absolutely key to the mistake AH makes which then leads to a general war. Keith Johnston (talk) 22:35, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes. note there were a lot of secret treaties in those days -- Vienna did not know whether there was a secret treaty between Russia & Serbia. It did know that Russia's foreign minister repeatedly said he would defend Serbia. Rjensen (talk) 02:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Im not clear why you would give it such prominence to that information in a caption to a map. You could equally say "Russia denied Austria's right to take action against Serbia, which she considered her client state" in the caption. That would be the meaning taken from the sentence preceding the one you quote in Clarke viz "Sazanov had denied from the start Austria's right to take action of any kind against Belgrade." You are taking a caption to a map and adding tiny piece of a puzzle (Sazanov's warning) without any caveat (when did he say it, to whom?) and giving it undue prominence. This matters best death with in the text where we can refer to controversies and caveats about warnings and explain where they fit into the chronology. You have replaced one error (Serbia is allied to Russia) with another (There is some-sort of standing warning to Austria not to touch Serbia in any circumstances. But we are not going to explain when this was given and the context). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Johnston (talkcontribs) 12:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Ok i think you're right. I'll get to it tonite.  :) Rjensen (talk) 14:52, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

‎Wikiquote[edit]

Since you are the creator of our article Cambridge School of historiography, I wonder if you will be able to start a new Wikiquote article on The New Cambridge History of India. Surely you have already read some of those books and as such it should be a nice intellectual goal to set for 2017. If you are unsure how to proceed you can look for my creation q:Millennium Prize Problems as guidance which is basically a series of mathematical problems as I am sure you are already aware, given your maths background. Some redlinks (there) which might interest you include: Vijaynagar, Mughal, Rajput, Deccan, Punjab, Maratha and other q:Category:States of India.

Please take this message as a formal invitation to join Wikiquote as a contributor. Solomon7968 15:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

thanks for the invite. I will look into it. Rjensen (talk) 01:59, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXXI, March 2017[edit]

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A barnstar for you![edit]

Peace Barnstar Hires.png The Barnstar of Diplomacy
In recognition of engaging in argument on the basis of sources and with great patience Keith Johnston (talk) 17:41, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

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Biased sources[edit]

The issue here is that a lot of biased sources are being inserted, often by people associated with those sources (including one paid editing spam ring), based on Wikipedians deciding which biased sources should be in versus out. Basically we have competing think tanks duking it out on Wikipedia rather than reflecting independent third party assessments. It often strays very close to WP:SYN and very very often goes into WP:REFSPAM. Guy (Help!) 10:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Take that top the talk page. How do we know what group you belong to?? Rjensen (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
I am removing both, so it doesn't matter. My pet peeve: $PARTSIANS think X, source, $PARTISANS saying X on $PARTISANWEBSITES. Further reading: $PARTISANWEBSITES. Guy (Help!) 10:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
You're violating the NPOV rules here. I added the Zulouf sources after doing my own independent research. Rjensen (talk) 10:47, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
No, I'm removing partisan websites. Did you see, for example, talk page comments saying that one editor works for the Heritage Foundation? Economic think tanks are groups of unaccountable ideologues, their ideas are rarely amenable to objective proof either way, and we should treat them with immense caution and never use them as authorities for what should be facts. Guy (Help!) 10:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Partisan websites are explicitly allowed by Wiki rules: WP:BIASED and required by WP:NPOV. Rjensen (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
That is a misreading of WP:NPOV. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:45, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
NPOV Requires inclusion of all significant viewpoints with RS. It often happens in politics that these viewpoints are supported by think tanks. Rjensen (talk) 11:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
It does not require the inclusion of any biased source. the policy states this explicitly and suggests that often it is better to exclude. If a political think tank has a significant viewpoint on some case then they can of course be included with explicit attribution. When someone challenges or removes material based on a biased source, the burden of argument is on the person who wishes to include it, and it is s/he who must show that the viewpoint is significant enough to merit inclusion.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:01, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
that's your private view. It conflicts with WP:BIASED Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Rjensen (talk) 12:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
That is not opposed to what I am saying, and you are the one here who is advancing an idiosyncratic view of policy when you say that NPOV requires the use of biased sources - it plainly does not:" Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether."·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:23, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
"Biased" is problematic here. It means a viewpoint the editor disagrees with. It needs to be evaluated on the talk page with other editors. Rjensen (talk) 12:27, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
No it does not. It means a viewpoint that can be considered a statement of opinion rather than a statement of fact. What is a fact is in turn determined by the views significance in non-biased reliable sources.You may also note that the policy states that "Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution." (So this requires identifying whether a specific statement is or is not a statement of opinion from a biased source, if someone challenges your inclusion of a statement from a biased source, you must justify that the specific statement is not biased before including it again without attribution.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:29, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
But, yes inclusion requires discussion of what is and isn't a biased opinion with other editors on the talkpage, and the formation of a consensus about what is reliable and what is a biased source, and what is fact and what is opinion - before being reincluded. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Guy seems to think that ALL or most think tanks are "biased" and should be immediate removed. He erases them at the rate of one a minute, which does not allow much time for investigation into "bias." He does not use the talk page to explain his findings of bias. Who keeps your list of "unbiased" think tanks??? Rjensen (talk) 12:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
To me it looks as if mostly he only removes think tanks when they are used as sites for information that can easily be sourced to a higher quality source. There are some occasions where I think he ought to have left the claim in place with a citatoin needed tag, removing only the think tank. I reviewed a couple of his removals, and didn't find anything I would consider to be really problematic (i.e. removal of warranted sources, or objective important information).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:24, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
He spendfs less than a minute and moves to the next unrelated case. he has better sources somewhere??? he keeps them well hidden. He is removing sources chosen by dozens of other editors without consulting them. Rjensen (talk) 13:26, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
If you start a discussion on the talkpage and produce an argument why the source and statements it supports are good and relevant, then presumably he will participate. Otherwise it may be reasonable to insert it again, if he does not support his own position with arguments and sources.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree, and there is a discussion now at ANI. Rjensen (talk) 17:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

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Conservatism in the US[edit]

Sorry for not consulting the group. I thought it would be appropriate to show how large the US conservative movement has become since the end of WWII.

Take care.

Less is more. A list of 25 people that readers can actually make use of is much more valuable than a list of 250 where they have no idea where to start. Rjensen (talk) 11:36, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

This Month in Education: [March 2017][edit]

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The Bugle: Issue CXXXII, April 2017[edit]

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ANI thread[edit]

You're mentioned at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:JzG.27s_questionable_spam_blacklist_additions.2C_removals_of_citations_to_reliable_sources.2C_failures_to_usefully_engage.2C_etc.. N I H I L I S T I C (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

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Let's Talk[edit]

Your revision to the lede at the article we are both concurrently editing are not minor. I came in as a neutral party. In particular, restoring a quote to the lede -- quotes are generally never needed in ledes -- is to begin to return the lede to a partisan summary. Right now the lede summarises the article. Please discuss this in the Talk section of the article, before further lede editing. (I am going to revert them. Let's Talk in the Talk section there._ Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 16:58, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

You will see that I agree with you on some points, and not on others. I am not taking sides at this article. I an following the SOURCES (what they say), and am objectively assessing source quality, as an academic. Please, engage in Talk, either here or at the article. The lede must continue to summarise the whole of the article, and the whole must not violate NPOV. Sources and article must remain balanced. These were the issues when I arrived, and the NPOV has largely been resolve. Please do not ignore Talk page content. Please engage in discussion before reversing the clock, and returning contentious issues and perspective of the article. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
More secondary sources are needed says one critic so I added a useful one that summarizes the article. It is needed because one critic denied the term "epithet" was appropriate. As for partisan blogs, I think Daily Kos is a major one on the left. Rjensen (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
We agree on both these, and I agree with you that epithet is fine. However, you are reversing hours of careful work, by an academic, and I ask you to engage in discussion in Talk, so we can agree to a course, so that we are not at cross purposes. Please continue at the article Talk page. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Hours of careless work get reversed such as this misleading statement in the lead: While historical usage includes neutral appearances (including from within that party), examples that continue sporadically through to the present day No RS says the historical non-epithet usages are important. Rjensen (talk) 17:18, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
PS. In addressing these matters, I intend no disrespect for you, your abilities, or expertise. I am simply trying to resolve the earlier tensions that arose here, in accord with WP policies. Were I reading one of your history articles, and it presented a series of primary sources in support of a point or conclusion, I would have no problem. That is the role of the primary and secondary research literatures. However, here, most contributors are not History or other Profs. They are untrained amateurs, and the patterns established at articles are followed by all who follow on. Hence, if an editor goes to the primary literature to build an argument, we say "No," per WP:OR. (If you want me to get more specific vis-a-vis policy, I can.) The arguments appearing must be made from secondary sources, and supported (illustrated) by primary sources. Arguments are not to be those of editors (even an illustrious historian who edits), they are to be those of published authors, appearing elsewhere first. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
The statement was not careless. Careless is not taking seriously the contentions of a fellow scholar. Look at the article again. What was summarised, is there. Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Aside from its clearly partisan appearances, the term continues to appear periodically in non-partisan media. Media Matters for America has documented the occasional use of "Democrat Party" by the Associated Press, CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and the Chicago Tribune, and it is used occasionally abroad by the BBC.[1][2][3]
Some sources indicate that the term "Democrat Party" was in common use with no negative connotations in the early-to-mid-20th century. For example, in a 1912 book on the Democratic and Republican national conventions by William Jennings Bryan, a three-time Democratic nominee for president, Bryan wrote "Why, for instance, should a Democrat leave the Democrat Party, which has labored in behalf of the popular election of Senators for 20 years..."[4][non-primary source needed] A second example is the 1919 New Teachers' and Pupils' Cyclopaedia entry for Woodrow Wilson, which states that "In 1912, Wilson was the Democrat Party nominee for President..."[5][non-primary source needed] In July 14, 1922, a newspaper advertisement for Missouri's primary elections contains candidate lists for the various political parties, the Democratic Party list appears under the heading "Democratic Ticket", and each candidate from U.S. Senator to recorder of deeds is identified as "Representing: Democrat Party".[6][non-primary source needed] In 1958, author John Lyman stated, "in Maryland the usage has been common for years among some members of the Democrat party itself, with no derogation intended".[7]
  1. ^ Brown, Joe (October 10, 2007). "GOP Strategists Christen "Democrat [sic] Party" — and the Media Comply". MediaMatters.org. Retrieved April 12, 2017. 
  2. ^ BBC Staff (February 12, 2005). "Dean Elected as Democrat Leader". BBC News. Retrieved April 12, 2017. 
  3. ^ Solomon, John & Hennessey, Kathleen (October 11, 2006). "Democrat Leader Reaped $1.1 Million From Sale of Land He Didn't Own". USA Today. Associated Press. Retrieved April 12, 2017. 
  4. ^ Bryan, William Jennings (1912). A Tale of Two Conventions: Being an Account of the Republican and Democratic of June, 1912. New York, NY: Funk & Wagnalls. p. 304. [non-primary source needed]
  5. ^ Holst, Bernhart Paul (1919). The New Teachers' and Pupils' Cyclopaedia. VI. Chicago, IL: Holst Publishing Company. p. 3158. [non-primary source needed]
  6. ^ Chariton County Clerk (July 14, 1922). "Notice of Primary Election". Chariton Courier. Keytesville, MO. p. 6. (Subscription required (help)). [non-primary source needed]
  7. ^ Lyman, John (October 1958). "Democrat Party". American Speech. 33 (3): 239–40. JSTOR 453220. 
I did not research or write any of this, I simply made sure it was summarised in the lede. Agan, I have no horse in the race. Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
"common use" in early 20th century. says who? No i think one cite per decade is "uncommon use." RS report it was used locally in a few places like rural Maryland (says Lyman) The Bryan quote is the only Bryan cite...and he used "Democratic Party" 56 times in that same book. Google over all Bryan's books has Bryan using "Democrat Party" once and "Democratic Party" in over 1000 different books & essays, often several times wachtimes. 1/ 1000 is "uncommon". For Bryan it looks like 1/5000 or so--="rare." Back to "plagiarism" will you please erase that word. thanks. Rjensen (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
First, I am not accusing you of plagiarism, I am stating simply, and clearly, if primary material is being presented without a secondary source, it is either from a secondary source (unstated, and so plagiarised), or it is original work. You have not replied to this argument, at the article page, or here. Do you believe that there is a third alternative? I am not intending a false dichotomy. Help me see it another way.
Second, in the last "common use" analysis, you are functioning as an historian here, and not as a Wikipedia editor; moreover, you are arguing from facts not in evidence. I am not making the case that the arguments that appear in the History section are solid, or accurate to the literature. Nor am I arguing that the lede is accurate to the research literature or other available scholarship. I am simply arguing that the lede reasonably summarises the content to the article that is currently there, which includes
(i) modern rampant, pejorative uses in modern times, since the 40s,
(ii) early innocuous uses, including by members of the democratic party, and
(iii) current, stray innocuous uses of the shortened form.
The article says this, and the lede summarises it likewise. I think that while not being perfect, the lede is adequately neutral—note I removed the NPOV tag, and in this way, appear to have been acting in a direction you sought—and while containing all three points, its emphasis remains on pejorative (which is also the emphasis of the current article).
Here is a suggestion: Let's add to Further reading, a short list of secondary sources that discuss this subject—reviews, book chapters, etc. Authoritative, scholarly sources. Included in these should be the secondary sources from which the current History section scholarship was drawn. After arraying these, let's edit the article, as necessary, to make it comply with these authorities. Then, if the authoritative sources say—as you argue above, that Lyman, Bryan, etc. are misrepresented—we can correct the article, and the lede. But the lede should not be based on your scholarly expertise, and novel insights as a subject matter expert. No where is this allowed here. The lede should summarise the article, and the article should present the preponderance of published scholarship. For instance, I know from my research… that there are problems with some specific WP articles. But until my research is published, and the research views in my primary publications are broadly accepted (via citation in review), my personal academic and intellectual convictions about my area of expertise do not belong in WP.
Otherwise, again, absent a secondary source to underpin the history examples, it is OR, which should come out. You may know, as an historian, that the selected examples are representative, and not biased, but that is not the point. Someone has to have published the examples, so that we can cite the secondary source. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
please erase the word plagiarism and we can talk, otherwise go away. Rjensen (talk) 18:52, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
See bold above. In re: what I mean by the word, look for appearances of the word "ideas," on p. 43 here, and the opening lines, here. Do I perceive correctly that the construction of the History sections is your original work—that it does not appear anywhere else—and that the issue that we should be discussing, is whether your original scholarship should remain here? Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
No you are misinformed about OR. please read the rule. please erase the word plagiarism and we can talk, otherwise go away. Rjensen (talk) 20:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
With all due respect—and I have offered respect at every step of the way, in every manner possible, here—it was clear from the start that we disagree about applying WP:OR, and your declaring I am misinformed does nothing more than re-state the assumption on your part that has been in play since the start of the discussion. And this ought to be (but is not yet) a discussion. I have made an argument; your answers are declaratives/imperatives. You saying OR is not what I perceive, your saying that I misunderstand—these do not make it so. Your declaring I am careless does not make it so. I have repeatedly, and in detail, explained myself, and clarified my arguments and positions. You are not speaking to a student here.
If I misunderstand something, it is beholden upon you to explain, as I have asked—just as I have, out of respect, responded to you. You said "careless", and I replied to make clear the portions of the article I was summarising in my draft lede. You took umbrage to my use of the word plagiarism, and I replied fully, explaining that it was not a personal statement, not directed at you, and made clear the logic that offers it as one interpretive possibility (not a certainty). One of us here is relating collegially, and like a respectful peer. If you are not used to doing so at WP, I understand. There is a degree of leeway, for expertise and experience, that at least I bring to bear in dealing with senior colleagues. But I—and the myriads who lack our advanced degrees—are no less contributors here than you are. Again, you are not speaking to a student here. (My boldness and confidence, like yours, comes from my age and experience, and my scholarship, which though perhaps not so popularly read, is as sophisticated and apt as yours. For that matter, my current work relates to informatics and the veracity of content on the web—and the disservices in digital designs that allow students to arrive ad wrong conclusions through unsophisticated search and other digital mis-steps. Sound familiar?)
Otherwise, one does not erase anything at Wikipedia. One moves past, and you have given me no basis to do so. I am quite sure, from long editing in my fields of expertise, that I am not wrong that the gathering and interpretation of primary sources without citation of a secondary source violates OR, word and spirit (and I am unmoved by the fact that this core principle, from WP:OR, is widely violated). However, I invite again—if I am wrong with my either "A or B" logic, offer me "C". Or explain, clearly, why "A" or "B" are not valid alternative explanations. That is, engage the sources I presented, engage the argument I made, or at least state the portions of the policy that you believe contradict me. That is, do something other that give one sentence replies that ignore earlier direct replies to you, and skirt the substance of the matters at hand. What statement in WP:OR says it is fine to collect and interpret primary sources? If the current state is not WP:OR, or cribbed without attribution—what other interpretive options do you perceive? We have each written thousands of pages, elsewhere. Your unwillingness to take 30 minutes to engage that active, talented mind of yours, and your unwillingness to write a half page in response to anything here—these, alongside your one sentence "you are wrong" declarations and "you must do this" ultimata... it is hard not to interpret these as a clear sign that the issue here lies in entrenched perceptions of how things ought to be, rather than they are, and then in a lack of respect (and not right application of WP:OR and WP:VERIFY).
So respond or not, but please make your response at the article (and not here). I am erasing nothing, because your "You take it back" is not how digital works, and "You do as you're told" is not how WP works. Whatever else we talk about should be said at the article, so all can see and hear. I have been checking both places, will hereafter be checking just the article. Finally, je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte. Cheers, Le Prof 165.20.114.246 (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Your statement the gathering and interpretation of primary sources without citation of a secondary source violates OR, is not true. try quoting the rules exactly. Rjensen (talk) 01:27, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I would also note for the record[edit]

…that a consequence of my long work today, is that all citations that appeared earlier have been checked, completed as far as possible, and are uniformly formatted (in appearance, if not in underlying markup). This and the restructuring of the article are what I expected to be the real matter for discussion, and if these are also of issue, please also take them up at the main article page. You will see I have created a new section there to start us (and all other editors interested) off toward resolution. Cheers. Le Prof 165.20.114.246 (talk) 23:48, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Conservatism Article[edit]

Many of the assertions made in the main definition of conservatism are absolutely irrelevant to and biased against conservatism. Obviously, this is extremely problematic as the point of an encyclopedia is to provide an objective understanding of a topic. If you cannot understand why the main definition is unsatisfactory, please research alternative sources to ascertain the meaning of conservatism. If the page for "candy" included an alternative definition of candy that reads "a brown machine which allows for the movement of humans by combustion engine," it would be moved to the page for automobiles. The fact that a source cited for a definition which is irrelevant to its subject is the reason for the denial of its removal is as ridiuculous as asserting that propaganda has place in definitive knowledge.

Anon here seems to be unable to tell us what is wrong and instead spends much more time on candy and automobiles. No RS of any sort is mentioned--perhaps nore are used. Rjensen (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Democrat Party[edit]

Greetings. I appreciate your zeal for scholarly rigor in articles. However, please note that making accusations and misrepresenting others' positions (such as here) is considered uncivil and disruptive to the achievement of consensus. I would prefer to keep talk page discussions focused on the content of the article itself. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I get annoyed when you fail to cite RS for your statements about scholarly journals --you are pretending to have some expertise on journals in order to undermine published RS. Rjensen (talk) 11:00, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Nota bene* Please refrain from continuing to make disparaging remarks about other contributors, as was done here. If you are not satisfied with how a discussion is proceeding, the appropriate thing to do is to seek dispute resolution. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

You have not explained why you deleted a RS dealing with usage of "Democrat Party" by local Democrats. Rjensen (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Real Life Barnstar.jpg The Real Life Barnstar
For your talk at Wikimania 2012, this barnstar is extremely belated, but well deserved. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:06, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Re: Gov. Jackson and the Indiana KKK[edit]

The book you cited, "Citizen Klansmen: The Ku Klux Klan in Indiana, 1921-1928" covers Jackson's association with the Indiana KKK (as well as the attempted $10,000 bribe to McCray) in its Chapter 6, entitled "Political Power," referring to him as "Klansman Ed Jackson, then secretary of state" on the very first page of that chapter. That the Klan failed in its legislative efforts doesn't say much one way or the other when one considers what a bungling, failed, and ineffectual governor Jackson turned out to be.

no, it refers to a Klan announcement. Jackson never claimed membership & stated publicly he was independent & owed allegiance to no bloc. [p 154] did he a join a chapter at some point in some location? Rjensen (talk) 06:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 25[edit]

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Your expertise needed[edit]

New additions ...well written ...but very detailed on side events like Quebec Act .....easy to see new additions no wikitext. American Revolution.--Moxy (talk) 21:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Misclick?[edit]

What happened here? --John (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll take it as a mistake. Please be more careful. --John (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Booknotes and Petticoat Affair[edit]

Hello - Haven't spoken with you in a while, nice to see you. FYI, I have been updating the URLs on some of the Booknotes links, and while doing that, I have been (when appropriate) moving the links from the External Links sections of certain pages up in to the body of the articles, using the "External Video" template. I did this, for instance, in the Petticoat affair article in the Controversy section, so that the Booknotes interview with Marszalek can be clicked on and accessed right next to a pertinent Marszalek quote. I am not doing this for all articles, but I am doing it for some where it seems appropriate. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this. KConWiki (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

OK thanks--that's a better location for the link & I didn't spot it. Rjensen (talk) 17:38, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

This Month in Education: [April 2017][edit]

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The Bugle: Issue CXXXIII, May 2017[edit]

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If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 03:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Courtesy notice[edit]

This is a courtesy notice to let you know I have posted at ANI to get further input on the Balfour Declaration citation question. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Balfour Declaration. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Alert[edit]

Commons-emblem-notice.svg This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the Arab–Israeli conflict, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you that sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

May 2017[edit]

Copyright problem icon Your addition to The Holocaust has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

You need evidence of copyvio and have not provided it. Rjensen (talk) 22:20, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Take a look at Ealdgyth's talk-page post and at the copyvio-revdel request. There's never any possible justification or excuse for adding copyvio to an article, but you were perhaps not aware that the course of action to be taken had already been discussed here. In cases where an editor has demonstrably added a copyright violation from one source, it's our normal practice to presumptively revert the whole edit, whether or not every word of it can be shown to be an infringement. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Apart from one case he did not actually demonstrate it. The common phrases like "murderous intent of the Nazis" and " "The total victory of the Allies in North Africa" are too old and too often used by many people to be copyright. Rjensen (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

John C. Frémont[edit]

Hello Rjensen. I have been doing some work on the John C. Frémont article. You are welcome to read through the article and make any changes if you have time. The goal would be to get Frémont to GA and/or FA status. The lede, Civil War, and his later life sections needs more work. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:30, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

thanks for the heads up--I'll look t it. Rjensen (talk) 15:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

American Revolutionary War[edit]

Trying to avoid an edit war.....I start a conversation on the mass changes not vented to the sources used.--Moxy (talk) 16:14, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Get you took look at the additions that were added. Editor is paraphrasing other Wiki pages.....can you read the additions see if they actually match the sources he/she cant see.--Moxy (talk) 03:26, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
thanks for the heads up. I have not spotted a bad problem yet. I thinks it's overenthusiasm  :) Rjensen (talk) 04:19, 24 May 2017 (UTC)