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:::Instead of editing the above, lets just discuss each edits below this line. I strongly feel that this is a neutral approach to this dispute and am only acting here in an effort for neutral consensus between the two sides from a few days ago and greatly appreciate {{ping|skubydoo}} taking time to review and resolve this. I can request for more veteran wiki neutral reviewers should this be too much for one person to review. I can tell you it is way more time then I wanted to invest to help resolve a dispute I did not start :) [[User:Kbhatt22|Kbhatt22]] ([[User talk:Kbhatt22|talk]]) 18:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:::Instead of editing the above, lets just discuss each edits below this line. I strongly feel that this is a neutral approach to this dispute and am only acting here in an effort for neutral consensus between the two sides from a few days ago and greatly appreciate {{ping|skubydoo}} taking time to review and resolve this. I can request for more veteran wiki neutral reviewers should this be too much for one person to review. I can tell you it is way more time then I wanted to invest to help resolve a dispute I did not start :) [[User:Kbhatt22|Kbhatt22]] ([[User talk:Kbhatt22|talk]]) 18:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I am tracking the discussion here regarding the images and have added my suggestions below. As Kbhatt suggested, I think we should judge the image for whether its branch agnostic, not its source, though there were be a few exceptions.
:*Arti image: I liked your idea of branch agnostic images, which includes avoiding images of any religious heads performing the arti. I wanted to suggest finding an image of a Swami performing the arti of Ghanysham Maharaj. This will represent the Sampradaya as a whole and will not be exclusive to any denomination or include any current gurus. I will work on finding an image to fit this criteria.

:*I agree, the image of Akshar Purushottam in Bochasan can be removed, and we can replace it with the mandir as Moksha88 has mentioned.

:*I have found two images of the acharyas of Vadtal and Ahmedabad and we can add that in the major branches. Rakeshprasad - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Acharya_Shree_Rakeshprasadji_Maharaj.jpg and Kaushalendraprasad - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/HH_Acharya_Maharaj_Shri.jpg

:*There are no images for ‘Influence on Society,’ and I think we can use one from the ISSO seva site [https://www.dropbox.com/s/opl85lfuona5w27/ISSO%20Seva%202019%20Plan%20%26%202018%20Accomplishments.pdf?dl=0 ISSO Source] for the Humanitarian section. Do you agree it’s branch agnostic? If so, I will work on securing copyright permissions to use this image. I think my proposed edits/additions will help balance the images. [[User:Apollo1203|Apollo1203]] ([[User talk:Apollo1203|talk]]) 15:34, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


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Revision as of 15:34, 23 July 2020

Proposed changes to Swaminarayan Sampradaya page. @Skubydoo: @Harshmellow717: here goes. So we are all clear. The IP's proposed almost 16 different edits. I am only going to address the 4 I feel are changes that should be made and discussed. The goal here is to reach Consensus between the back and forth between the IP's and Baps so we can all feel content that this page represents what we intend it to and do so in a manor appropriate to the collective contribution culture of Wikipedia.

Edit 1

Proposed Change + Reasoning:
Inclusion of Desh Vibah Lekh under spiritual tradition where we list scriptures original to the sampraday. The 'Desh Vibah Lekh' is the last document authored/signed by Swaminarayan himself and recognized across the sampradaya and holds a lot of weight in the traditions post Swaminarayan. It is on display in signed form at the International Swaminarayan Museum.
The Change (Addition):
=== Desh Vibhag Lekh ===
Main article: Desh Vibhag Lekh
The Desh Vibhag Lekh was written by Swaminarayan in 1827 establishing the division of territory into two dioceses of Ahmedabad and Vartal[1]: 188  It was dictated by Sahajanand Swami himself and written by Sadhu Shukmuni in the Darbar of Khachar Dada Ebhal at Gadhada in the year 1826. It was translated into English by Geo. P Taylor in 1903.[2] It has been accepted as such by the Bombay High Court as valid document.[1]

Edit 2:

Proposed Change + Reasoning:
Under the Swaminarayan Gadi Maninagar section, there was a leadership change in the past week. I am not from this branch but I was able to validate the IP addresses claim with an independent source. There are over 2 dozen such news articles. This is simply leadership change in that branch and maintenance work.
The Change (Update):
The current leader is Jitendrapriyadasji Swami.[3]

Edit 3:

Proposed Change + Reasoning:
This is the change that started this back and forth. IP's wanted a line included. Baps did not. It was properly sourced but was worded poorly so I updated wording to match source to help resolve the dispute. I am indifferent with its inclusion *BUT* trying to be neutral here, the IP felt this was a fundamental part of that branches "mythos" and a part of their origin story and we cannot deny it if it meets wiki guidelines so I leave it up to @@Skubydoo: to determine its inclusion. I think it is fine on my understanding of this as this is an ideological difference that is outlined within one branch and not implied for all branches so do not see a violation here and feel the IP's claim to its inclusion is not violating anything.
The Change (Update Section):
The Yogi Divine Society was established in 1966, by Dadubhai Patel and his brother, Babubhai after they were excommunicated from BAPS by Yogiji Maharaj. The brothers were expelled after it was discovered that Dadubhai illicitly collected and misappropriated funds and, falsely claiming that he was acting on the organization’s behalf, led a number of young women to renounce their families and join his ashram under his leadership.[4]: 72 [5][6]: 18–19  Dadubhai believed Narayanswarupdas Swami, also known as Pramukh Swami, was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him.[7][8] After Dadubhai’s death in 1986, an ascetic named Hariprasad Swami became the leader of the Yogi Divine Society. The Yogi Divine Society became known as the Gunatit Samaj and consists of several wings: namely, Yogi Divine Society, The Anoopam Mission, and The Gunatit Jyot.[4]: 72–73, 127 [5] Yogiji Maharaj's images and prior gurus are displayed at all Gunatit Samaj temples.[9]

Edit 4:

Proposed Change + Reasoning:
The order of external links and major groups at the bottom of the page. As stated, I felt this was just felt petty. IP's wanted their branch first and Baps had already ordered themselves first. @Skubydoo: as a neutral moderator, I leave this up to you. Trying to be neutral myself, I propose the template and external links just list them by the official date the organization was founded. Simple and easy. Not sure which order the diocese were founded so someone feel free to reorder that. Its the same day so I went Date then Alphabetical following citation standards for URLs.
The Change (Simple Reorder):
==External links==

Edit 5:

Proposed Change + Reasoning:
This is about the point raised by IP's about the domination of images coming exclusively from Baps which is one branch denomination under the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Some images are hand picked to promote the leader of the branch as opposed to what the image is referencing. I am proposing we use branch agnostic images where we can on this common Sampradaya page to appease both IPs, Baps, and all other branches to avoid any dispute. Or atleast diversify the images to capture more then just one branch in the images. The actual article has 9 images of which 7 are Baps specific. The proposed changes would replace 4 of the baps images with branch agnostic images or other branches getting inclusion. This diversifies the page. The intent is not to remove all Baps images like the IP's propose but diversify the images here and these changes do that.
The Change (By Image):
  • Aarti Image - Suppose to capture aarti but is putting importance on the person doing it. Feels like the image was hand picked for that reason. Proposed image is of idols that were created and installed by Swaminarayan himself and aarti is done by an unnamed swami.
  • Kids worshiping Image - These are kids in Baps logo attire worshiping at a Baps temple. Swaminarayan originally proposed wearing a dhoti during prayer. We probably should use an image of someone in a dhoti but I cannot find one already in the wiki catalog of images. In the name of diversification, any other image seems to be branch specific as well so this can stay unless anyone else strongly feels otherwise.
    • Suggestion #1: This image adds diversity to the page because it shows that followers are of all ages - not just adults. I have to really try hard to see any logo on the child’s outfit, and the practice is clear.
      • I am not advocating replacing this image. I agree with you. I did find this intresting read about pooja in swaminarayan religion: https://www.swaminarayan.faith/articles/daily-pooja It has images of the kid in traditional pooja attire dhoti. But the images arent good quality. Not sure if there us any value add of having an image like this. I think the current one works.
  • Murti Image - Swaminarayan never installed a murti of any Swami. This is a branch specific ideology. This is suppose to capture the murti tradition of Swaminarayan Sampradaya as a whole but this image was carefully chosen to have a murti of swaminarayan and a Baps leader to promote both in the name of one. The proposed image is murtis/idols installed by Swaminarayan himself over 200 years ago and accepted by all Branches as it is authentic Swaminarayan creation. If we cannot use an branch agnostic image here, then we cannot turn down other branches from putting images of their murti tradition. The proposed image is branch neutral as it is original and then each branch already outlines their murti tradition on their branch pages.
  • Mandir Image - This is a Baps temple. I propose using an original temple created but Swaminarayan, but also see merit of including a modern creation as well. I leave this image decision up to discussion and review from @Skubydoo:. Maybe we do a modern image of an original mandir created by Swaminarayan to represent the entire Sampradaya better.
    • Proposed Image #1: This mandir holds a Guinness Book of World Record for the largest Hindu mandir which is notable for the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. It will be balanced by the picture of Ahmedabad mandir which can replace the image of the current murtis.
      • : I am also not advocating for the removal of this image. I think we could go either way but as you menitoned it is a modern rendition so it makes sense. Should we replace the ahembdabad image already on the page with a real image of that temple tho? instead of a hand sketch.
  • Vachanamrut Image - This image is a cover of the modern reprint of Baps version of the Vachnamrut. We already have the original manuscript uploaded to wikipedia. I propose we use that. It is branch neutral.
  • Swaminarayan Bhashyam Image -This is a Baps book with Baps logo. As stated we are diversifying images and not intending to remove all Baps images. This references a point in the article and the image warrants presence.
    • Suggestion #1: I’m confused by your reasoning, but I think we should keep it because of the significance of this work to the Vedic tradition of commentaries as a whole. Continuing the commentarial tradition is probably a point of pride for all Swaminarayan groups.
      • I am saying this image should stay. IP's had removed it but it should stay is my suggestion.
  • Ahmadabad mandir image - This was the first mandir created by Swaminarayan himself. It is branch specific but part of the Swaminarayan tradition so makes sense being here.
    • Suggestion #1: What if we replaced this with an image of both acharyas? It would make more sense in the ‘Successorship’ section anyhow.
    • Suggestion #2: We could do that. Thats a great idea but there is a lot of debate around acharya of one branch and the image could lead into a image war. I did a ton of research around this for another dispute and think we currently have it accurate in text. It went though a talk discussion as well so we have it correct I think but it still has caused disruptive editing. I am wondering if we just find an actual photo image of this temple to show how it looks after 200 years.
  • Mahant Swami image - This is the current head of Baps. Nothing wrong with this image being here *BUT* we need to establish a cadence here. @@Skubydoo: other branches have tried to post their branch leaders which have been removed with the reason being does not merit inclusion. If we include one branch head then we should include the other listed branches and allow images of those branch heads in similar style. Otherwise we could remove this image as the branch heads are outlined in text and link to branch pages with the images anyways. This would remove the need to maintain images going forward in multiple places. @@Skubydoo: can provide neutral feedback. If we want branch head images here, I can load in the heads for all listed branches and we resolve the dispute between IP's and Baps.
    • Suggestion #1: If we keep images of the leaders, then we can keep this image as well. We should also include a picture of Jitendrapriyadas for Maninagar.
      • Yeah. Group decision on leader images. I personally think it is more to manage, especially since we lead to each branch anyways with their leader images. I think we can do without leader images and just the leader in the text. But open for other opinion. It would make maintenance easier and simplify things.
Instead of editing the above, lets just discuss each edits below this line. I strongly feel that this is a neutral approach to this dispute and am only acting here in an effort for neutral consensus between the two sides from a few days ago and greatly appreciate @Skubydoo: taking time to review and resolve this. I can request for more veteran wiki neutral reviewers should this be too much for one person to review. I can tell you it is way more time then I wanted to invest to help resolve a dispute I did not start :) Kbhatt22 (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I am tracking the discussion here regarding the images and have added my suggestions below. As Kbhatt suggested, I think we should judge the image for whether its branch agnostic, not its source, though there were be a few exceptions.

  • Arti image: I liked your idea of branch agnostic images, which includes avoiding images of any religious heads performing the arti. I wanted to suggest finding an image of a Swami performing the arti of Ghanysham Maharaj. This will represent the Sampradaya as a whole and will not be exclusive to any denomination or include any current gurus. I will work on finding an image to fit this criteria.
  • I agree, the image of Akshar Purushottam in Bochasan can be removed, and we can replace it with the mandir as Moksha88 has mentioned.
  • There are no images for ‘Influence on Society,’ and I think we can use one from the ISSO seva site ISSO Source for the Humanitarian section. Do you agree it’s branch agnostic? If so, I will work on securing copyright permissions to use this image. I think my proposed edits/additions will help balance the images. Apollo1203 (talk) 15:34, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

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  1. ^ a b Raymond Brady Williams (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 36. ISBN 0-521-65422-X. tejendraprasad.
  2. ^ "Desh Vibhag Lekh".
  3. ^ Jul 12, Ahmedabad Mirror / Updated:; 2020; Ist, 18:52. "Maninagar Swaminarayan Gadi Sansthan gets new heir". Ahmedabad Mirror. Retrieved 2020-07-15. {{cite web}}: |last2= has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
  4. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference :15 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ a b Melton, J. Gordon (21–23 June 2011). New New Religions in North America: The Swaminarayan Family of Religions (PDF). Annual Meeting of the Center for Studies of New Religions (CESNUR).{{cite conference}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
  6. ^ Swaminarayan Prakash. June 1966. Mumbai (Dadar): Akshar Bhavan.
  7. ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/An_Introduction_to_Swaminarayan_Hinduism/tPkexi2EhAIC?gbpv=1&bsq=dadubhai
  8. ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Acts_of_Faith/Sgs9BAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22dadubhai+patel%22&pg=PT170&printsec=frontcover
  9. ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/An_Introduction_to_Swaminarayan_Hinduism/tPkexi2EhAIC?gbpv=1&bsq=dadubhai
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