Talk:Women as theological figures

I have just put down a few names from the Christian tradition - there must be more elsewhere.

Feel free to change the title as appropriate.

It is not meant to be a feminist article but to provide the basis for an underdeveloped area.

I see two parts:

Women who can be seen as being notable as religious figures

The extent to which women can hold offices/positions of authority within various religious systems (though I know some religions do not have a formal priestly structure).

Jackiespeel 18:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

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Right as far as I've been able to check there is no article on the actual theological significance of women on Wikipedia (all we seem to have is Christian views of women and Feminist theology). There are certainly women of GREAT theological significance, from my knowledge, in Christianity; this is all off the top of my head (and my long forgotten RS A-level) but in John doesn't Jesus call Mary "Woman" (rather than "Mother"), before changing the water into wine, which I believe several biblical scholars argue shows his movement from his earthly family to his spiritual mission. Mary Magdalene? An ex-hooker who finds faith through Jesus! Theologically insignificant?! This may be all Christianity based but I'm sure that every religion has women as theological figures! e.g. Mohammed's wives? I really think someone should make a proper article out of this! (If there is an article with similar content already on Wikipedia which I haven't found then I'm sorry but still suggest it should be better labelled!) Jezze 02:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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I'm not sure what "theological" is suppose to mean in this title. List of women in religion, List of female theologians, Women in theology, Women in religion, and List of religious women all seem like better titles, depending on the purpose(s). -Acjelen 03:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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Agreed. The title is very ambiguous and as such the article could easily become gigantic, everybody from Eve through to Artemis could be considered "theological figures", personally I'd go for Women in theology. Jezze 14:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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I was starting off a topic which does not appear to be covered in Wikipedia - it is bound to be "untidy" to start with. The title can be changed and several articles can probably be created - the intent is to cover historical women/the position of women within the various religious hierarchies rather than (semi) mythical females.

Anyone with more theological/historical knowledge feel free to develop.

Jackiespeel 16:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I say at the beginning that I am willing to see the title changed and that there are probably at least two articles on the topic.

1) Women who have been influential in matters theological/religious (to cover priests, theologians and other areas: eg hymn writing, and possibly some missionary work).

2) Religious hierarchies and the extent to which women can participate in them - of which the ordination of women is one aspect. This might also cover priestesses in the Classical World - or this might be another subheading.

I am not certain where Pope Joan would fit into this topic.

It is better to start the article and invite others to develop it - and a topic like this will require more co-operation than most.

Jackiespeel 20:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

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Well all I have to say is "damn straight"! Hence why I added the links etc. Jezze 02:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Can I also add, having just checked the page (to add a request for help on the article here), that priestess leads to priest and nothing on the female variety (should mention, at least, the classical varieties, Vestal Virgins etc). This proves my point about the omission.

Jackiespeel 21:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I have started developing the text so it can be divided into the two parts defined when there is enough text. Jezze's suggestion could be developed into a third area.

Jackiespeel 13:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

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You'll find plenty of "theological women" in the list of saints, though it's still not very clear what is meant by that. That's probably something that should be explained in the article's introduction. You probably want to say something about deaconesses. Are you interested in discussing women like Mary of Egypt, Catherine of Alexandria (aka Catherine of the Wheel), or Nonna?

Also, what about Men as theological figures? Has that been covered in a differently named article already? Wesley 05:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I started the article as a result of the debates in the Church of England about allowing women to become bishops, and Benedict XVI's comments on the ordination of women. I know enough to see that there is a gap in the market/Wikipedia about the general subject, but not enough to put more than I have (which is why I have put requests on various talk pages) - feel free to add something on deaconesses and the women mentioned above.

The women to be included under my first heading are those who can be seen to have influenced the development of theology rather than "mere saints" (who would appear in the list of saints). The second heading is more specific - and as I have said above, other areas could be developed on the topic - several articles could probably emerge out of this field. Are there any religions which are specifically women only - ie the equivalent of the Mithras cult?

If Wesley wishes to develop the male equivalents, and the introductory text of these pieces, please do.

The title #is# a bit vague - but a better one should become evident (hopefully) when the text is more developed, and various sections separated out into their own pages.

Jackiespeel 17:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

The extra-European angle

Could someone add a few female theologians and others, and ecclesiastical ranks held by women from outside the European area - present limits of my knowledge.

The article, as I would like to see it, would be a hub article - providing a general overview of how women fit into ecclesiastical systems/hierarchies (using the term to include all religions) and how they have influenced particular religions etc. Other articles could be provided on the position of women in particular religions etc and how women are regarded in various religions.

There could also be articles on "official religion and the masses" (ie covering topics such how the peasants/working classes viewed the official religion, how they practised religion etc: to what extent some religions/practices a way in which the poorer/excluded groups hold their own against the official/promulgated doctrine etc. How have the official religious hierarchies viewed those at the lower end of the range "The poor are with you always", "The rich man in the castle, the poor man at the gate" etc). Again a group (however defined) who have been excluded from the traditional leaderships.

Jackiespeel 19:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Female gurus?

Are there any sources that call these women, "gurus"? ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 00:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Unless sources are provided, I will remove this section entirely. ≈ jossi fresco ≈

These women, Gangaji aka Antoinette Roberson Varner, Mata Amritanandamayi, Mother Meera, Nirmala Srivastava are all spiritual teachers in the Hindu traditions and lineages. In other words that makes them gurus, regardless whether they call themselves so. Andries 19:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Andries, but I think that is not up to us to decide if they are gurus or not. Remember WP:NOR. If we are true to that principle, we need to find a notable source that call these women "gurus". I am not very familiar with Hindusim, but my understanding that the title "guru" is reseved for males. You may want to ask some of the editors at the Hinduism article. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is the reference for the fact that women can be gurus. Mother Meera is called a guru by the book in the link [1] Though the burden of proof for a statement is on the person making it, it is also the explicitly stated duty of people who work on a certain subject to do some research into the subject. Andries 18:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The "burden of proof", or as I would better define it "cite your sources", is on the editor adding content. You added the content, and I asked for sources. You proviced sources for Mother Meera. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 21:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Spiritual mediums?

Does a medium belong in an article about "Theological figures"? Seems to be an opinion of the editor, to link spiritual mediums to "theology" (Theology: "The rational and systematic study of religion") ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 00:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Unless sources are provided in which "mediums" are considered theologoical figures, I will remove this section entirely. ≈ jossi fresco ≈

These women made in their channeled messages statements about God. According to the religious scholar Wouter J. Hanegraaff in an early 1990s article about channeling, Jane Roberts's Seth was influential and Helen Schucman's text had everything to become a classical religious text. Another example of a spiritual medium is Muhammed which shows how influential spiritual medium can be. Andries 08:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

the above was described in the article by the Dutch religious scholar Wouter J. Hanegraaff unfortunately in Dutch language Channeling-literatuur: Een vergelijking tussen de boodschappen van Seth, Armerus, Ramala, en “A Course in Miracles”’ [Channeling-Literature: A Comparison between the Messages of Seth, Armerus, Ramala, and “A Course in Miracles”], Religieuze Bewegingen in Nederland 22 (1991), 9-44 Andries 18:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

To summarize it, I have reference for Schucman and Jane Roberts and I personally believe (without references) that Ramtha channeled by J.Z. Knight is influential. Andries 18:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The topic is somewhat open ended - a mention could be made of women as mediums, with links. Has anyone done a study of the proportion of male to female mediums? Jackiespeel 17:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Specifics for the article

Anyone care to add some text to the document rather than a series of links? How *do* women fit into theological structures, regard religious involvement, how do their perceptions differ from men's etc?

The subject at this stage is open ended - and if people wish to develop the topic in relation to any other group they can (men as theological figures, working class/peasant perceptions of theology etc).

Jackiespeel 22:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I think what I would want the article to develop towards is something like folk religion - as well as the division suggested in previous entries.

Jackiespeel 16:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposal for change of title

Jossi remarked that theology is "The rational and systematic study of religion" which means that almost all women from this article should be removed. I propose to rename this article in "Women as religious figures". Andries 19:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is quite specific: Women that have influenced or that have played a significant role in the development of various religions and religious hierarchies. I would suggest you start a new article Women as religious figures to which you can move your additions (Durgas and mediums), leaving this article as is. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:34, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

well, then all the most people (mediums and gurus) that I added belong here. Andries

I created the tile "for want of anything better" - specific women who have been notable in influencing theology, and the positions which women can hold within ecclesiastical hierarchies. Changing theology to ecclesiastical (with a redirect as I have put requests on various talk pages for different religions) might be the best answer.

Comments?

Anyone know more about Wicca, Mother Goddess and New Age religions as women appear to play a significant role in such belief systems?

Jackiespeel 21:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

If you can't clearly define or explain what the article's title means, it's probably a bad title. When you say "notable in influencing theology" do you mean proclaiming it (evangelism etc.), explaining it, changing it, or what? In Orthodoxy, only three men to my knowledge are generally given the title of theologian: John the Theologian, Gregory the Theologian, and Maximus the Theologian. But obviously, many more men and women served as evangelists, apostles, and other various roles in proclaiming and defending the faith.

You also seem to think that having an ecclesiastical title is equivalent to having more "power" or "influence", but there are numerous examples of persons having one of those two things but not the other. So pick a title, "Women as influential religious figures" or "Women as ecclesiastical figures" or whatever, but make sure it expresses what you're intending, and that it will be possible to write a NPOV article about it. Wesley 04:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I think I have made my position clear above (including about the title). A better title would probably suggest itself if some text was developed for the various sections.

Nobody would deny that power/authority and rank can be very different (the monarch's body servants or secondary partners etc #can# be more influential than the monarch's ministers), but in some contexts it is useful to discuss both aspects together.

Women's capacity to influence religious developments, or participate in religious administration has, for historical reasons, been limited in various cultural areas, but has varied over time. Is it possible to explain why they have been marginalised, why certain women or categories (some abbesses by right of office could wield significant power, women as hymn writers) have been able to exert influence - and what their position, by influence or by availability of ecclesiastical rank, is now in various different faiths.

Jackiespeel 21:40, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I think I'm starting to understand. What about renaming it Women as religious leaders then? Wesley 04:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

ReProposal of the change of title added another reason, to accurately depict non-theistic religions like Buddhism. Woman as religious figures -memeMachine

Women "gurus"

Unless someone can provide a source in which these women are called "gurus", it is unacceptable to label them as such and contrary to WP:NOR. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 21:48, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Hope this works after my last edit. Explained and gave some context and added a reference. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The descriptive is the sort of thing I was asking for (g).

This main topic could also include "compare and contrast" (as would be done in a topic on decolonisation etc.

Jackiespeel 21:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Annie Besant

Hi, it is surprising that the article doesn't mention her - an interesting life, considering the changes in her religious views and her role in bringing Jiddu Krishnamurti into forefront. I do not see which section exactly this fits in, hence I'm leaving the suggestion here. --Gurubrahma 05:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I did mention Theosophism which would eventually get to Annie Besant - but I did ask for people to add more details etc from what they know: feel free to add. Perhaps Theosophy could be given its own section (which would resolve the point).

Anyone care to add an overview of the subject, and other religious faiths?

Jackiespeel 17:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Have changed the relevant section slightly is this what is wanted?

In Buddhism

Added Yeshe Tsogyal at the request of User:Jackiespeel in Talk:Buddhism. Csbodine 14:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Religion

I've added a link to this page on the entry for Religion. Csbodine 05:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone care to develop the links for Christianity and politics (and related areas - as should be one of a series)?

Can someone correct the Cromwell-era publication - not certain how to spell it (or do the article).

Jackiespeel 15:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The Moroccan reference is to BBC article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4971792.stm Jackiespeel 17:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Introduction to this article

An introduction is necessary - can someone theologically minded write it: describing why women were in the minority as religious leaders (in various parts of the world), and why/how the situation is changing.

Jackiespeel 22:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Article Title

The title of this article should, perhaps, reflect the first sentence (with redirects from the current heading) - and it should be more than "a list of notable women in religious positions."

Jackiespeel 30 January 2007 (this library terminal won't let me sign in)