Talk:Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia

For a January 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Discrimination against non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia

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I urge all members to be on the lookout for OneGuy who has slapped a VFD on all discrimination articles against Islam. Kindly refute this effort by cross voting on all other discrimination pages

1. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Pakistan
2. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Sudan
3. Islam and Mauritanian law
4. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Iran
5. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia
6. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Afghanistan
7. Discrimination against non-Muslims in Malaysia

We need your votes so this can remain wikiepedia and not become Meccapedia--Malbear 05:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just be careful about one thing: Saudi Arabia is the closest thing to an ally that the US has in the Arab sphere. I worry that singling it out for criticism may have a bad effect. Kind of like the way Chomsky leans harshly on human rights abuses by dictatorships friendly to the US, while maintaining near-absolute silence about Communist abuses 100s or 1000s of times worse!

Although Chomsky says he does this only because it's better to criticize someone you have a chance of changing, that doesn't convince me: it has the effect of setting up a double standard that leads to horrible suffering of millions of people!!

So, may I suggest that we work toward a more general article about the ENTIRE Islamic sphere and its treatment of non-Muslims. Let's not pick on the only Arab country who sent Bush a nice note of commiseration and sympathy after 9-11. (I have to look it up again, but the crown prince said something rather noble and majestic...) --Uncle Ed 22:11, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am not sure that the whole Islamic sphere should have the same apporach as freedom and laws concerning other religions are different in other Arab countries. Additionally chosing not to remark on what your personally disagree with because a country is an ally is hypocritical. The same sort of attitude is why Saddam Hussien was armed mainly by the West only for it to turn sour in the end. I am not implying that Saudi Arabia should or should not be considered the same, but I am saying that personal convicions sould not becompromised just because another appears to be on one's side. I have no grind with Islam, but I do with a state that imposes any faith as it should be one of personal choice.

Saudi Arabia has been given an unfair media attention. The king of the country is a liberal trying change the country into a more open one. The tradionalists are few and far between but they do have alot of power like judges. Alot of Saudi's actually want a open country. Furious Stormrage

Uncle Ed, thank you. your're a logical man. S_n_b

Religious freedom in SA

I spent two years in Saudi Arabia. To gain entry to the country, I was required to show adherence to a recognized religion. So, atheists would show up as having some religion. Although not officially mentioned, it was known that you could not specify Judaism as your religion and gain entry. If you had a stamp from Israel in your passport, you could not enter. Israel will stamp a paper, removable from your passport, to circumvent this problem.

That said, during my time there, I never saw or heard of anyone arrested for religious observances held privately. SA holds Islam's holiest sites and the government feels the responsibility of keeping these sites Islamic. If they did not hold the line against Christians, how long before Evangelicals would be accosting Muslims in the street and exhorting them to switch to Jesus? Baghdad had hardly stopped smoking from the bombs before Evangelicals were bundling thousands of bibles off to missionaries there. --LesAldridge 22:30, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And the problem is? Isn't it the right of any religion to engage in proselytization in any country it wish to? Why do you think that right should be limited? And what about other countries? Should Italy also have the right to "hold the line" against Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims because the Vatican is is placed in Italy, and because Buddhists (+whatever) might "accosting Christians in the street and exhorting them to switch to Buddah?" YusufDepe 09:54, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh don't start this. The fact is that Buddhists don't send people out to convert poor and desprate people. The other fact is No Religon allows others who aren't of that religon from entering the holy site. The Cities Mecca and Medina are big holy sites. All of it. Not parts all of it. Give me an example where a The Vaticans let non catholics to go to there sites. Furious Stormrage

Furious, you missed his point by a mile. He wasn't talking about the Vatican, he was talking about Italy; The Vatican is to Italy as Mecca is to Saudi Arabia. Italy indeed does have other religions and even evangelicals and proselytizing isn't restricted, so you're wrong. You might be interested in knowing that non-Catholics enter the Vatican every day as tourists. none

1. The Vatican is goverend by the Holy See not Italy. 2. Based on the argument that “If you had a stamp from Israel in your passport, you could not enter. Israel will stamp a paper, removable from your passport, to circumvent this problem.” I would like to advice you that “If you had a stamp from Cuba in your passport, you could not enter The US. Cuba will stamp a paper, removable from your passport, to circumvent this problem...Please be objective in dealing with matters that are beyond individual preferences. I don’t find it contributing to list the political game of every regime on the planet, we will need a sullen wikipolitics. S_n_b

Furious, quite honestly, the Vatican and even the Christian Holy sites in Jerusalem do not forbid non-Christians from entering. In fact, they DO enter, daily. So please, don't generalise. Also, Les Aldridge, I lived in Saudi for a good 13 years, and during that time my relatives and friends have been subject to downright demeaning behaviour and treatment. Once at the Dhahran airport, a Christian was carrying a Bible in his suitcase. The customs officer took it out, proceeded to tear it in front of him and then threw it in the dustbin. My family friend was arrested because he was celebrating Easter 'inside his home'. Anthony Permal 10:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article fails to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) policy, although it is largely factual.

Below are some specific examples that exist at the time of this writing:

"Freedom of religion does not exist."

This is an overreaching statement.

"The Government has stated publicly, including before the U.N. Committee on Human Rights in Geneva, that its policy is to protect the right of non-Muslims to worship privately; however, it does not provide explicit guidelines--such as the number of persons permitted to attend and acceptable locations--for determining what constitutes private worship, which makes distinctions between public and private worship unclear. Such lack of clarity, as well as instances of arbitrary enforcement by the authorities, force most non-Muslims to worship in such a manner as to avoid discovery by the Government or others."

This statement is arguable and not well substantiated.

"However, there was a report that prior to the period covered by this report, at least one U.S. citizen child in the country was subjected to pressure--and at times force--by her Saudi relatives to renounce Christianity and conform to Islamic norms and practices. The child has since returned to the United States."

This has little to do with the Saudi government and furthermore a sample of one is too small to present as an argument.

"Saudi Arabia publishes and distributes many books and articles promoting anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism."

Anti-Judaism is a better term where race is not the basis of discrimination. Anti-Zionism is not relevant within the context of religious freedom. Other than one quote from Al-Riyadh, this whole section is not well substantiated. Both external links are broken, and do not seem to refer to Saudi governmental policy anyway.

"According to reports from the U.S. Department of State, non-Muslims are discriminated against in many nations. This is discussed in the following articles: Religious Freedom and the Middle East at The Washington Institute for Near East Policy PolicyWatch"

The external link provided at the end of the article is to an article by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, which is a well-known and highly partisan neoconservative think tank. The article is not the US State Department report itself, but rather a WINEP commentary on it.

More important than these specific points of bias is the fact that this article falls extremely short of the Fairness and sympathetic tone NPOV sub-guideline.

This is not to say I disagree with the article as a whole. Indeed, I agree that religious freedoms are severely limited in Saudi Arabia.

However, as per the one-sided nature of the article, I am adding the POV-check template. Please do not remove until the abovementioned Fairness and sympathetic tone issue has been rectified to Wikipedia NPOV standards.

Splitpeasoup 09:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The statement "Freedom of religion does not exist" may be "overreaching", but it does accurately describe the situation: the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does not recognize a legal right to freedom of religion. Some people regard freedom of religion as a bad thing, and are happy that it does not exist there, so it is not POV to say so. But it no longer says that.

I am sure there is more than one non-Muslim religious organization that could substantiate the claims about public and private worship, but I don't have access to the information right now. I agree that the promotion of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not strictly a matter of religious freedom within Saudi Arabia, but I think it is a fact that should be acknowledged, and would support removal of that section only if the information were retaied somewhere else.

Material regarding the religious basis of Muslim attitudes to other religions is not appropriate to this particular article. Myopic Bookworm 18:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

PS I think the article is as fair and sympathetic as it is practical to be on the topic of violent religious oppression. The article appears to be factual, and any further 'fairness' towards the Saudi Arabian government would head towards being POV in favour of religious persecution. The most one could do is provide a couple of links to a balanced discussion of Islamic attitudes to non-Muslims, and of the role that the government in Riyadh considers it should have regarding the Muslim holy places, which happen to be under its control, though on the other side of the Arabian peninsula. If such links can be provided, then I propose the removal of the POV-check template. Myopic Bookworm 18:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The article looks much cleaner after your edits. I still have a minor and major gripe however:

My minor gripe is that the section on Anti-Semitism still looks colored. Most of it centers on ghastly representation of Jews in the media, but it is not clear whether this is reflecting the typical stance of Saudi media, or cherry-picking some inflammatory statements to press the point.

My major gripe is that the Washington Institute for Near East Policy is still listed as a reference (I had removed the link on grounds of bias, but it was reinstated). WINEP is a heavily partisan think tank, it cannot be considered neutral by any stretch.

I suggest the WINEP link be removed (after consensus, if this is controversial) and be replaced with more neutral external sources.

Once the above two points are addressed, IMHO, it would be OK to remove the POV-check tag.

--Splitpeasoup 19:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you can require external links to be NPOV sites. The link to the Wikipedia article on WINEP is there if anyone wants to know the backgoround of this organization, just as I have given a link to the ICC website so that everyone can see it is a specifically Christian site, and so naturally has a strong POV on the topic. Perhaps you would consider it sufficient to put a note above the external links disclaiming any suggestion of NPOV in the linked material? I'll continue thinking about what to do with the anti-Semitism material. Myopic Bookworm 19:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. I've moved the material on anti-Semitism out of the article entirely, and added a disclaimer to the External links section. I think the article as a whole still needs tidying, to ensure that the separation between 'policy' and 'instances of abuse' is maintained. It may also be worth separating out under little subheadings sections about particular groups such as Shia Muslims, Christians, and other faiths; but that's more than I have time for. Myopic Bookworm 19:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks pretty good right now, neutrality-wise. I'm removing the POV-check tag I had inserted as I don't think it's necessary any longer. --Splitpeasoup 20:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Certains things out there sound like it has a POV and this one really does

Population

Saudi Arabia article says 25 million, this one says 19. Some gap. Medico80 10:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal

This merge tag has been sat on Religious Freedom in Saudia for ever but no tag had been added to this page. This could do with being sorted - by someone with expertise - sooner rather than later to avoid any more parallel development. Madmedea 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Religious Demography

I provided a source for the Shia Muslim minority forming 15% of the NATIVE population, so please stop changing it to 3% without even providing a reliable source. KMF