Talk:2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh

Israel involvement

Can't edit, so : Baku thanks Mossad and Israeli military over Nagorno-Karabakh victory : https://www.intelligenceonline.com/government-intelligence/2023/10/03/baku-thanks-mossad-and-israeli-military-over-nagorno-karabakh-victory,110060879-art

Israeli arms quietly helped Azerbaijan retake Nagorno-Karabakh, to the dismay of region’s Armenians : https://apnews.com/article/armenia-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh-weapons-israel-6814437bcd744acc1c4df0409a74406c Atchoum (talk) 10:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel has quietly helped fuel Azerbaijan’s campaign to recapture Nagorno-Karabakh, supplying powerful weapons to Azerbaijan ahead of its lightening offensive Nemoralis (talk) 13:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Trial of Karabakh Armenians

Saw this article [1] and wondered if his individual case would be worth an article. Or possibly, a general one covering all Azerbaijani trials of Karabakh Armenians. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

United Nations Refugee Agency statement

I've removed the statement from the United Nations Refugee Agency; it's out of date and lacks the context of more recent revelations. I don't believe it should be reinstated unless they continue to make that claim, as it presents an incorrect and undue perspective of the conflict. BilledMammal (talk) 11:34, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

UNHCR statement that "there were no recorded incidents or cases of mistreatment against people on the move" is not out of date. Their representative spoke with the Armenian population of Karabakh in Armenia. Recent claims of violence have no independent confirmation or verification, while UNHCR is a UN body and is independent from the parties to the conflict. If we discuss allegations of violence, the information from the top international organization is very important and has a direct relevance to the topic. Also, Blankspot should be removed, as it reports on rumors, and Wikipedia is not a place to report rumors. I don't think that it is acceptable that the UNHCR is removed, but the rumors reported in media are included. Grandmaster 09:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I fail to understand how a report by the highest international authority, which both parties are members of and resort to in times of crisis, can be dismissed as "lacking the context", especially if the only thing that counters it is a series of isolated and uncorroborated claims. In any event, it is not any more "out of date/context" than, for instance, the report by Ocampo, which currently features in the introduction despite the fact its predictions of "imminent genocide" never enjoyed support from any serious human rights organisation and later turned out to be very far from reality. Despite this minority view, Ocampo's report has been included into the article, without doubt because of Ocampo's notability, but he cannot possibly be more authoritative than the UNHCR, whose report is unquestionably more due-weight than Ocampo's. Parishan (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Not lacking the context, lacking the context of more recent revelations - in other words, its out of date.

As for Ocampo's prediction, there are no Armenians left in Nagorno-Karabakh. BilledMammal (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

It is not out of date unless there is a follow-up report of equal notability that supersedes its findings (which there is not). Furthermore, nothing within that report has been majorly contested by an establishment whose authority on this matter is comparable to that of the UNHCR.

no Armenians left in Nagorno-Karabakh is not "another Armenian genocide", and no one has ventured into referring to the 2023 exodus of Armenians as such since Ocampo's report was published months ago, which very much qualifies said report as WP:UNDUE and out-of-date. Yet Ocampo's findings enjoy a mention in the introduction while the UNHCR is being questioned here for contextual relevance. Parishan (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, I also see no reason why UNHCR statement should be removed. It is based on UNHCR personnel communications with Karabakh Armenians conducted in Armenia, and UNHCR is a UN body that deals with refugees. At the same time, unverified rumors of violence are mentioned, while according to WP:RUMOR Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation, rumors, or presumptions. As for Ocampo, he made his report at the request of Karabakh separatist leadership [2], and he does not represent any international organization, it is just his personal opinion. I see no reason why personal opinions should be cited in the lead, considering that no credible international organization supports claims of genocide. Grandmaster 10:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This is quite misleading. Harutyunyan asked Ocampo for nothing more than his expert opinion, he did nothing to influence what that opinion would be. Ocampo represented the International Criminal Court as their prosecutor for genocide and war crimes and is also completely non-partisan. He is the most noteworthy source by far. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The argument that the UN missions statements is undue was made in the parallel article as well [3], and was not accepted by the wider Wikipedia community as result of an RFC. I can start another RFC on this page, but I see no point in doing RFCs for the same thing on every page. So I suggest that we include the reports on causalities by both UNHCR and the special UN mission in this article. Grandmaster 09:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

My argument for excluding it here is that it is out of date and lacks context. Get an up to date source, and we can discuss including it. BilledMammal (talk) 10:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The casualties of the "Artsakh Defence Army" understated

Here is the link, the author refers to: https://www.azatutyun.am/a/32601772.html

According to it, Armenia lost at least 200 soldiers(not 190+) with at least 400 being wounded, not "360+".

WHile technically the plus sign is true, why didn't the author write "1+" per each section which would also be true? Padar Khan (talk) 10:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)