Talk:Order of Assassins

A Winner of the September 2005 West Dakota Prize

This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

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Sources

Hi, I added some sources while browsing this article. However it didn't cater to all of the "citation needed" tags so I left those open to anybody who can cite a source for them (it would be useful if somebody here is fluent in arabic)

Hashshashin dagger

In the text, there is a mention to the use of a "Hashshashin dagger". How exactly does on of these things look like? I mean, what were their distinctive symbols?

Apparently the blade was triangular. This was one of the distinctive things about them. That's all I know, I'm afraid. ThePeg 17:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Influences

Just a quick comment on the Influences section saying the Terry Pratchett Assassins are based on the historical group. This is a very tenuous link; the Discworld Assassins are trained at what amounts to a public school and have no ideology or agenda to promote, with no goal except to make money and to look good. You may as well say they're based on the Ninja, the cultural differences are vast. They share a name and that seems to be about it, as the historical Assassins never exactly had the monopoly on stealthy murder.

I'll leave it up to the regular contributers to decide if it should be deleted or not.

I really don't think that the Assassin's guild in Discworld is based on the Haschhashin since in the book pyramids they are mentioned too. As the "only group of assassins that will kill you laughing hysterically at their own reflection in the daggers thy're killing you with".

Al-da'wa al-jadīda spelled wrong in Arabic?

I always thought that in Arabic the adjectives come after the nouns but according to this article it's "al-da'wa al-jadīda (الجديدة الدعوة)". Al-da'wa means "the doctrine" and is spelled الدعوة and al-jadīda is equivalent to "new" and is spelled الجديدة. But because Arabic reads from right to left al-da'wa al-jadīda should read الدعوةالجديدة and not الجديدة الدعوة. Am I correct in saying this? I'm going to change it for now until someone either realizes that I'm mistaken or comments back that I'm correct.

Your correction on the order of adjective and noun are correct, but translating ad-da'oua as "doctrine" strikes me as quite peculiar. New Preaching, New Summons (in a religious sense), New Mission (as religious mission, e.g. missionaries), the New Call - these all strike me as decent translations, but doctrine? Where did you get that? (Collounsbury 07:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)).

Yeah sorry bout that i'm only recently studying arabic, but my main point was for the order of the words Mike 20:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Reference for this?

I have removed this line from the section comparing the Hashashin to Al-Qaida as I couldn't find anything to back it up.

Moreover, confirmed culprits so far for 9-11 and the Madrid Bombs were all drug-users.

Xebedee 18:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Would like to remove

I would like to remove the following text--or radically edit it:

The power of the Hashshashin was destroyed by the Mongol warlord Hulagu Khan, but several smaller sects remain to this day, such as the sect led by the Aga Khan.

Are we saying that the group that accepts Aga Khan are "Hashashin"? Or followers of Hasan Ibn Sabah, even?67.119.12.107 23:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Exhaustive

Informative and lively account of an interesting people

Even more exhaustive

Addressed 67.119.12.107's concerns. Added much interesting history, many wikilinks, carefully revised original text somewhat for style and consistancy. Started to introduce sources (The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf is highly recommended). Well done to whoever wrote the original body.

FYI

FYI In the next few days I'm going to completely restructure this article (as well as many of the Ismaili articles on Wikipedia). I've been studing the Ismailies (in particular the Nizariyyah) for a very long time, and I've got a lot of information to add to this article.

FYI, the best resources for the Nizari Ismailies is Farhad Daftary's "The Isma'ilies, Their History and Doctrines", and Bernard Lewis' "The Assasins" if you have any comments, feel free to add them.--Venerable Bede 03:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also check out

I also suggest checking out Farhad Daftary's "The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Ismailies"

Attempted Conversion

If the Hashashin really had attempted to convert to Christianity, it was selfish and hypocritical of the Knights Templar if they had prevented them from doing so. Anglius

As far as I know only some of the Hashshashin wished to convert to Christianity, and there were political reasons for the Knights Templar to prevent that. Aran|heru|nar 13:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Mr. Heru. They were not so holy.

why hypocritical?

why hypocritical? If anything the Templars practised a perverted form of christianity if not out right heresy as were the grounds for their destruction by the King of France and Pope

Casual Reader recommends for deletion

"However, assassination and terror are often major components of Arab and Israeli politics."

This is a strange mention. Whether or not assassination is universally employed to achieve political goals is arguable insofar as we define "universally".

Political terrorism is also not exclusive to Middle Eastern politics. Off of the top of my head, in Russia, Ireland/Great Britain, Indonesia, South Asia, Japan, many states in Africa, France, Germany, and Italy, terrorism has played a significant role in political struggles. It seems this statement is too topical. Yes, Middle Eastern terrorism is an issue of the day, but this formulation is inaccurate.---20 July, 2005.

Para on links with knights Templar

Don't really feel qualified to enter this myself but anyone with the right information could, perhaps a paragraph on the suspected Templar/Hashassin link should be added?

This is an absolute minefield as almost everything anyone has written about this is probably speculative. The only thing we do know about is that Templar and Hashashin strongholds were close to each other, that there was an balance or power between them and that there was an indicent in which Templars ambushed and killed some Hashashin ambassadors, I think. Speculation is rife. Maugre believes the Templars were hand in glove with the Hashashin and modelled themselves on them. Others say the Templars gained Sufic and other mystical ideas from them. Others that they were parallel spiritual sects - both warrior-monk types with powerful military and financial might, independent of most authorities and in pursuit of mystical knowledge. We just don't know. ThePeg 17:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible Reference from Herbert's Dune

It has been some time since I read Dune by Frank Herbert but if I recall correctly Paul Mau'dib had an army of what were called Feydakin, a corruption of the Hashshashin's name for themselves. The Feydakin were religeous soldiers who worshipped Paul as a god and would follow his orders, like the Hashshashin, unto death. I also believe there was an initiation involving a drug but to become feydakin but my memory of that is unclear at best. I'll read into it a little when I get the time to confirm or deny this. There may be further references to them as well. (Unsigned)

The Fedaykin were indeed followers of Paul Muad'dib Atreides, and Fremen, or natives of Arrakis (the desert wasteland planet). As Fremen, they grew up with more or less constant exposure to Spice, which is a drug that eventually gives people certain psychic or prescient abilities. I don't remember if the Fedaykin took extra doses of spice (as in drinking the Water of Life), but they certainly had enough spice over their lifetimes to turn their eyes that weird glowing blue of the Fremen people. Pterodactyl katya 04:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Drugs or not?

I took out the following:

It has now come to light by many historians that there is no actual proof or historical fact that show that the so called "Assasins" actually used hashish. It was actually considered a sin by the sect to use such drugs.

because it duplicates what is already said by Edward Burman as quoted in the article; and it doesn't cite any of these "many historians". If you want to put it back in, please cite at least one source! Andrew Dalby 09:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Daftary or not?

I removed the long review of Daftary's book, which was copied (apparently without permission) from [1]. I inserted a mention of the book, and a link to the review, under 'References'. Andrew Dalby 14:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the section about parallels with Al Qaeda has disappeared. This may be for the best, but I point it out in case anyone wants to reinstate it. Andrew Dalby 14:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Overall Article Tone

As someone with a passing familiarity with the medieval Near East, I have to say that this article reads like the reader is already familiar with the subject matter.

For example, I'm not altogether certain what this sect was, a small group of religious fanatics, or a small state? What with all the talk of 'power bases' and 'citadels' Perhaps this could be addressed?

Grass or Booze?

"However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish."

There isn't really much difference, especially after you translate someone's recollection of getting wasted from 1000 years ago. In fact Opium is a more plausible explanation than alcohol, the explicitly Haram status of alcohol lead to hashish being the Arab world's intoxicant of choice from the mid 7th century until the present day, it wouldn't be surprising if Opium was also commonly consumed during the Middle Ages.

Neutrality of this article is disputed

This article is an attack on the Shia Nizari Ismaili Muslim community, by twisting and misrepresenting a part of its history. Altough it lists a number of books as references, the article invents more than it reflects from verifiable sources. It needs to be cleaned up and brought into line with Wikipedia standards. -- Aylahs ^(talk) 21:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is just giving a bad idea to people about Muslims. And those were the crusades. Almost EVERYTHING was violent then. Iman S1995 03:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions nothing about the Nizari or muslim beliefs, nor does it present the Hashshashin as exceptionally violent or bloodthirsty, nor does it portray murder or terror as a primary tenet of either Middle Eastern lifestyle or of Islam. What precisely is the problem? 164.67.226.47 23:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved

I moved the following over here, since it does not fit in with the article. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

A group known as the Fedayeen were active from the 8th to the 14th century, and were described by their enemies as hashshāshīn: "those who habitually use hashish" (The name "assassin" is commonly believed to be a mutation of the Arabic "haššāšīn" (حشّاشين, "hashish-eaters"). However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish. It is suggested by some writers that assassin simply means 'followers of Al-Hassan' (or Hasan bin Sabbah, the Sheikh of Alamut (see below). Others suggest that since hashish-eaters were generally ostracized in the middle ages the word "Hashshashin" had become a common synonym for "outlaws". So the attribution of Hassan's Ismaili sect with this term is not necessarily a clue for drug usage. Some common accounts of their connection with hashish are that these "assassins" would take hashish before missions in order to calm themselves; others say that it helped to boost their strength, and turned them into madmen in battle. Yet other accounts state it was used in their initiation rites in order to show the neophyte the sensual pleasures awaiting him in the afterlife. The connection between their mysticism and that drug is not something subject to reliable or consistent historical accounts; this is not surprising given their secrecy and infamy.

interesting linguistic analysis

This is an interesting source I am removing from Libricide as it doesnt fit within that article:

Nunberg, G. "The Time of the Assassins". NPR "Fresh Air" Commentary, Air date February 20,2004. [2]

John Vandenberg 13:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)