Talk:List of republics

What about the Republic of Ireland?

Republic

What about the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago? could we also see, head of state ie, president, prime minister, etc.listed next to the name of the country.

Map

How about gettiung a map together? like the one for the Monarchy article? Although, it would be more populated... 88.106.186.34 18:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Indian nationalists

SOmeone should put a stop to the indian nationalist revisionist attack on wikipedia. THeir touchups in democracy, republic, and corporate hitsory is dishonest and undocumented. Outside of explorartory articles dealing with the respective topics they have no proof whatsoever to their statements.

Pmanderson rv

Why is Pmanderson reverting this page, when the edit has a Reference! Nothing and I mean not a single one has any reference except the one I added on Sparta. There are references! And he reverts? I don't think so. WHEELER 03:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I will answer this, once. WHEELER's "references" are copied from two sources:

• a "thousand page fantasia" from 1824, about how the beautiful, strong-limbed, blond Dorians invented civilization. Even if Karl Otfried Mueller were not a crank, this would be too dated to be useful to us; not a reliable source.
• A three-volume tract by a Carolina professor who believes that the American Union has been decaying since the Constitutional Convention met. Fortunately, it is still easy to give due weight to the adherents of John C. Calhoun. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the references Niccolos Machiaveli called Sparta a republic. It is. Alexander Hamilton called Sparta a republic. Actually if you look, Pmanderson, Karl Otfried Muller called Sparta an Aristocracy not a republic nor mixed government. He had no concept of the term. But like a good German who is very detail oriented AND not afraid to let others speak, he quotes Cicero. All Prof. Muller did was repeat what Cicero said. More than you people will do.WHEELER 23:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the case of Wikipedians NOT following the policy of Wikipedia NPOV. I have references. It also seems that the powers that be----have not googled the term "Sparta and Republic". The original French Encyclopaedia had the Article "Sparta, republic of". There was another from 1837 in America. Here is the list of the term Republic with the term Sparta: http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/List_of_sources_identifying_Sparta_as_a_republic. Notice that I have pulled up quotes from four different websites currently as of 2000 that call Sparta a republic. It is all there referenced for you. You don't have to work at all---not that you have done any research or work on this matter at all.WHEELER 11:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The Cicero reference is not useful, as the term res publica does not mean the same thing as the English term republic. The Rahe reference is also not useful. He doesn't use the term republic, only mixed government, which everyone other than WHEELER acknowledges are two difference concepts. Sparta could still be considered a republic. The most basic definition of republic is not a monarchy, and as a diarchy Sparta could thus qualify. This could be why Hamilton and Machiavelli feel free to call it so. However, modern scholars would not use this terminology. Until there are some references from recent peer reviewed works of scholarship that call Sparta a republic, it should be left of this list. - SimonP 12:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

First off, YOU ARE WRONG. Paul A. RAHE does use the term republic with Sparta: "At the same time, however, Lacedæmonia was a republic." (Rahe, pg 169). I don't know how many times I posted that, but you are certainly WRONG. Rahe DOES use the term republic!

Second, you moderns have changed the term and definition of republic. That is NOT the definition of the Classical term republic. Where do you find that definition "not a monarchy" in classical literature? Plato imitates, Aristotle uses the word Mixed, Cicero, a Roman Lawyer uses the term Mixed, Polybius says mixed.

Third, this "from recent peer reviewed works of scholarship that call Sparta a republic, it should be left of this list" IS NOT WIKIPEDIA policy!!! Show me where that is SimonP. What recent peer veviewed work labelled any of those places as republics?

Where are the MODERN SCHOLARLY WORKS that state each and every state you have on there as a republic? Where? You are making the rules tougher for me but every body else gets a free pass?WHEELER 13:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This page does need references for the others listed, but none of the others are contested. When multiple users doubt the veracity of a fact, it is perfectly common to demand more evidence. As to your other point, if you reject the modern definition of the word republic, you shouldn't be working on this article, nor the republic page. There are two classical terms that can be translated as republic: res publica and politeia. Wikipedia has articles on both of them clearly outlining what they mean. - SimonP 14:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In your last argument of 12:02, 16 June 2007 SimonP, I have refuted every one of your charges and your bogus statement that it has to come from peer reviewed works of scholarship. I have done that with Paul A. Rahe and with Taggert. Also did a google search; Sparta has come up numerous times as a republic. What you are doing SimonP is that after I refute all your arguments----you change the goalposts. You keep advancing and changing the bar. Truth is not subject to the Majority. You may hate that Sparta is a republic---But the evidence is there. I have done posted enough evidence.WHEELER 15:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The first words of Wikipedia:Verifiability state that truth is not the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia. Googling is not scholarship; and WP:NPOV forbids us to give equal time, much less more time, to extreme minority views, like Rahe's. As for Mueller's fantasies, they are no longer scholarship; they were dubious in 1824. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That being said, I can see a case for including links to res publica and politeia, if not here, then at Republic. If WHEELER will stop reverting, and Simon permits it, I shall insert them. If he will not yield to consensus, he will be reverted, and eventually blocked. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• You just can't stop learning at WP. A facinating discussion here. I propose a compromise as added at [[1]]. Perhaps some of the discussion above could be condensed into a footnote to accompany the entry. --Kevin Murray 20:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, thank you. I can agree with that. That is fine! I had the references. All I wanted is that Sparta be included in the list and the Cretans.WHEELER 20:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Including Sparta, as long as there are several caveats, is fine by me. The current wording is still a bit clunky, but it will do. - SimonP 22:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

There we are; I hope the present phrasing is less clunky. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WHERE IS THE NEGOTIATION

I am here. I see that now the article has been changed. I don't agree. They can't even make up their own f#%#@$%# mind. Is Sparta a Monarchy now? Or an Oligarchy? And England? No. Sparta is Republic!!!! Where the negotiation? I see none!WHEELER 21:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I am here Pmanderson. I have given enough copious amounts of evidence and quoted extensively. I am not leaving until the word Sparta is on that page. You may want to add caveats, I am open to that. But you must also recognize evidence and verifiability.WHEELER 21:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

You can't take off Sparta and leave Athens. Was Athens a republic under the leadership of Psitratus?WHEELER 21:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

If Athens is there WITHOUT caveats---Then Sparta must be there as well.WHEELER 21:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I am NOT accepting the current edit!WHEELER 21:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• We have a new compromise which gets Sparta on the list and seems to satisfy PMA. A concern expressed in a side discussion is that the footnotes were too cumbersome and detailed for a list format. This could be true. Maybe the information in the footnotes could be included in text or footnotes at the Sparta article. I find the information interesting. Thanks! --Kevin Murray 22:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As for having Sparta without caveats: any version that implies that Sparta did not have kings differs from all the authorities, including the ones WHEELER wishes to quote. Suggesting falsehood is WP:SYNTH. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:08, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

• • • What is "PMA"? I accept the compromise. But I want to add the city states of Crete because that is where Sparta got it from in the first place. As to kings, All the Classical republics were started under kings, to wit:

Muller states that King Minos of Crete instituted this direction and that only in the 6th century BC did the Cretans remove their kings.

Sparta kept her kings throughout the lifetime of the commonwealth.

And Cicero marks the beginning of the Roman commonwealth when Romulus "gave complete obedience to the auspices" and the foundation of the Senate. It was after he had adopted this policy that Romulus first discovered and approved the principle which Lycurgus had discovered at Sparta a short time before—that a State can be better governed and guided by the authority of one man, that is by the power of the king, if the influence of the State's most eminent men is joined to the ruler's absolute power." De re publica, Loeb. Vol #213, pg 123-125.

Furthermore Cicero says, He also writes that a kingdom can be a commonwealth as can be an aristocratic government but denies that a simple multitude (a democracy) is a commonwealth. "[And indeed many of the arguments] cited to prove that a kingdom is a commonwealth, "property of the people", could be applied [with equal justice to an aristocratic government]." 2nd citation is above this on same page "...I cannot see how the name of commonwealth would be any more applicable to the despotism of the multitude." De re publica, Loeb. Vol #213, pg 223.

• • • So you see all the Classical republics started under Kings--Only Sparta kept hers.WHEELER 00:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, both kingdoms and republics can be commonwealths. The ancient republics are listed above; therefore unless you wish to claim that the Cretan cities were monarchies, which is news to me, leave them out. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

First off you put the Roman Empire there. It is supposed to be the Roman republic. This is absolutely asinine! The Roman empire is NOT a republic! Everyone will acknowledge that Sparta got its government from Crete!!!!! If you put Sparta, you MUST put in Crete.WHEELER 01:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

WHEELER insists on including uses of res publica in this article. The Roman Empire continued to be Res publica Romana through the time of Justinian; and ceased to call itself so only because it stopped using Latin. The court of Friderick II (and others, for all I know) used respublica for the Holy Roman Empire also; but our new section does not pretend to be exhaustive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Indiscriminate List

This article contains no citations. In addition, it's categorization scheme seems wp:or. What is the difference between a "Peoples Republic", a "Socialist Republic" and the states listed here as "Democratic Republics"? In addition, the list itself is indiscriminate. What does the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have in common? One is generally considered a republic, but doesn't have the word "republic" in its name. One is generally not considered a republic, but has "republic" in its name. As it stands, this article could be renamed "self-proclaimed republics" or perhaps "Non-Monarchies".--Work permit 20:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The present meaning, as the OED puts it is: A state in which the supreme power rests in the people and their elected representatives or officers, as opposed to one governed by a king or similar ruler; a commonwealth. Now also applied loosely to any state which claims this designation. In other words, "self-proclaimed republic" is right; see also WP:NPOV on self-identification. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps some sections need to be clarified, for example, Unitary republics are unitary states which claim to be governed constitutionally as one single unit, with a single constitutionally created legislature. To make the point clear, should this article be renamed list of self-proclaimed republics? Finally, can you name a couple of nations today that do not claim to be either a republic or a monarchy? --Work permit 00:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Not, I think, helpful; if anything, a note in the lead, that we list states by what they say they are. Other than the Vatican City State and Andorra, what? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Andorra is a Principality, which is a Monarchy led by someone with the title of prince. Can you name another example?

The chiefs of the Andorran state are the Bishop of Urgel and the President of France; if they are monarchs, so is the Pope. But I have no idea what other one you have in mind; presumably some state which claims to have evolved past republicanism. Libya? Myanmar? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was just checking a hypothesis that most nations that are not self-proclaimed republics are monarchies, so I was looking for some counter-examples. The Vatican (a theocracy) seemed like a special case, so I was wondering of there were any others. Andorra is a good counter example. It's a principality with two co-princes: One a bishop and one an elected president of another nation.--Work permit 16:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, under which heading should I put the Italian Social Republic--Work permit 00:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)?

A heading of its own; "socialist republic" would be amusing, but I agree that it is technically wrong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've included it in the general heading (as well as the slovak republic, and rhodesia) for now.--Work permit 01:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why the special category of Constitutional republics with the United States the only entry? I assume most republics on this list have some sort of "constitution". Assuming no objections, I'll delete it.--Work permit 01:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

America is a psuedo republic that ended in 1913. It is a democracy now. It never was a true republic without an true aristocracy and distinctions of rank which Cicero points out! In 1913, the voting for the Senate changed from the State legislators to that of the people. From its beginning America is a psuedo-repubic.WHEELER 01:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Accroding to the premise in this thread, a republic is any nation claiming to be. If North Korea is a republic, so is the United States--Work permit 02:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Another shining example of WP Scholarship

====Other meanings of Republic==== ^{@ List of republics}

For the archaizing meanings of the word republic, as the commonwealth, or as a translation of politeia or res publica, see those articles.

These were in some respects broader than the present meaning of republic, and would include not only the republics of antiquity, as above, but, for example, the following monarchies:

• Sparta
• the Roman Empire
• Elizabethan England
• the Ancien Régime in France

Since the Oxford English Dictionary last cites this meaning from 1684, it is difficult to tell to which present states it would have been applied.

That section was authored by User:Pmanderson.

I want everyone at Wikipedia to take a long good look at the above section, "Other meanings of republic" and if that is not the most stupidiest and insane sections I have ever seen. Does any one think that that is a good example of Scholarship and professionality? I think this needs to be spread around. I think a lot of people need to see that. First off "Archaizing" the meaning. Mr. Pmanderson lost the argument and now he writes it. And so right off the bat, he slants the content as "archaizing". Then he calls Sparta a Monarchy. Did Aristotle, Polybius, Cicero, Niccolas Macciavelli, or John Adams call Sparta a monarchy? No. Yet in the Past 24 hours NOT A SINGLE WP admin has commented on the talk page and this stuff remains. The Roman Empire is really a Republic? Why is called "Empire"? I changed it back to "Roman Republic" and he reverts me. Is that not the most supersilliest thing you have ever heard? Rome is Republic because it is Mixed; NOT because it didn't have kings. Do you all suffer from reading comphrension here? Why is a modern defintion transported back into time? When the Latins NEVER considered the definition of a republic as "not with a king". That is NOWHERE in Classical literature! If you don't find that above section silly, then I feel sorry for you people. This is an example of why you are the laughing stock in my book. That is one sick section.

Furthermore, Pmanderson lost the argument. But then HE gets to write the info. He lies on the Republic article when he reverts and says he has consensus. He never engaged in negotiation. He doesn't accept any reference. He doesn't produce any, but he is allowed to continue to control everything. Nothing has changed since I left. A clique still runs things at Wikipedia and Admin don't step in and correct this guy.

I think that above section needs to be publicly presented. I think that section needs the light of day.WHEELER 23:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)