Talk:Edward Bernays

But the mass population is malleable- there is no one in the world that has not been affected by advertising and propaganda! And look at how people become sheep due to a mass opinion or order! William Golding illustrated this brilliantly in 'Lord Of The Flies' and there are many other examples of this- the Holocaust (6 million Jews?!), a number I can't even comprehend, sucide bombers, Waco, supermodels (size 0 mentality) , etc. the list is endless! I'm not sure Bernays thinks we are stupid- just that our sub conscious is very malleable as we can't control it. But he did change the world and not for better. Rows98 11:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Given that Bernays was quite obviously an unprincipled scumbag, I find the article quite biased towards being favourable to him. His lack of any conscience about whether Arbenz was a legitimate democratically elected leader of Guatemala speaks volumes about his obvious amorality. Before you reply with attacks, you may wish to consider that Bernays stated - in the very words of his own daughter - that all mankind was basically stupid. He thought that you, you reading this, for all your college education or otherwise, were basically a malleable piece of rubbish, and he didn't give a damn whether you were happy with that or not. May he and his kind rot in hell.

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Edwards L. Bernys and Ignatius De Loyola ?

Does there exists a link between the work af Bernays, the work of Ignatius De Loyola and to the Nazi propaganda ? If so, it is facinating to know, that public relation can be traced many years back in time to the Reformation and Anti-Reformation in Europe.

Where can the principles of propaganda developed by Ignatius De Loyola be found ?

Please give links to references.

If it can be proven that there is a link, I think this must be included as a separate section.

KFL 18th February 2006

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Loyola was way before this time, I believe.

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I've found out what the L stands for. Its Louis, but Bernays refused to use it in his name. He was reported to "have not liked to talk about it" Longevitymonger

I've got a problem with this...

"And history itself showed the flaw in Bernays's claim that 'manipulation of the masses' is natural and necessary in a democratic society. The fascist rise to power in Germany demonstrated that propaganda could be used to subvert democracy as easily as it could be used to 'resolve conflict.'"

I haven't taken it out yet, but I wanted to get some input.

I'm quite sure de Tocqueville would agree that "manipulation of the masses" is indeed "natural and necessary" in a democracy. But just because another type of manipulation (propaganda, not public relations) facilitated German Nazism doesn't mean that public relations is no less needed or effective in democracies.

It's like saying that democracies shouldn't maintain armies because some other countries have military takeovers.

Also, when the article names the "Toxic Sludge" book as its source, what does that mean? Is it verbatim, or just inspired? It seems like a very POV book to me, if its author's other contributions are any guide.

--Dablaze 01:13, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

So far I have only seen thinkers of the past and present state "Public relations is necessary for the functioning of a democratic society". I have yet to see a single sentence provided after these statements to back up the claim. Perhaps, someone could post some material on Bernay's thoughts on why it is a necessary process?

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More source material: A search at Npr.Org yields these (the first one is the URL in the article):

• BUSINESS: Freud's Nephew and the Origins of Public Relations 04-22-05, Morning Edition
• About NPR: Transcripts of NPR Series Specials 01-23-02
• Edward L. Bernays 07-15-99, Morning Edition
• BOOK REVIEW 08-25-98, Morning Edition
• CUTAWAY 03-11-95, Weekend Edition - Saturday

I mention this largely bcz while the article does briefly mention the "bacon and eggs" story that the NPR teaser i heard does, none of the article's linking articles sound likely to include it. IMO it almost certainly will turn out to be a facet of the development of American culture (there's at least one place in Rome that advertises "American breakfast" in the window!) worth documenting, with his name, but beyond the context of Bernays per se.
-Jerzy (t) 13:17, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Authenticity check: A search reveals that the phrase "regarded by many" appears in the text. Is the phrase a symptom of a dubious statement? Could a source be quoted instead? Perhaps the "many" could be identified? Might text be edited to more genuinely reflect specific facts?

Wetman

From the BBC documentary Century of the Self

Freud - Civilization and it's Discontents attacked the idea that civilization was an expression of human progress. He argued it was constructed to control the dangerous animal forces inside human beings. What was implicit in his argument was the ideal of individual freedom which was at the heart of democracy was impossible. Human beings could never be allowed to truly express themselves because it was too dangerous. They must always be controlled and thus always be discontent.

"Both Bernays and (Walter) Lippman's concept of managing the masses takes the idea of democracy and turns it into giving people some kind of feel good medication that will respond to an immediate pain or yearning but will not alter the objective circumstances one iota. The idea of democracy was about changing the relations of power that had governed the worlds for so long. Bernays' idea was one of maintaining the relations of power, even if it meant one needed to stimulate the psychological lives of the public, he felt it was neccessary. If you can keep stimulating the irrational self then leadership can basically keep on doing what it wants to do." -Stewart Euwen PR Historian, Century of the Self

Except for the last sentence abuse of power is not implicit. However, it is my supposition "Those in positions of power inevitably abuse their power because it's inherent in controlling the masses which is what power comes from. It's an abuse because it goes against the ideal of individual freedom." which I think is what anyone with a negtive attitude towards Bernays and the science of controlling the behavior of the masses has a problem with. Pointing back to Freud, social control systems is what enabled humans to evolve. Keep in mind Freud was observing the state of the world (and wars) during the first half of the 20th century (WWI&WWII) and was a member (if I recall correctly) of the national socialist party.

--- 20th Century? This article seems myopic--Public Relations is not a 20th Century invention. During the Roman Empire, it was commonplace for Generals and eventually Emperors to use spectacular Triumphs (marches) to show their might and victory.

What is new is the media, that's all.