Talk:Combat shotgun

Copyright concerns

Almost all of the information in this article is taken word for word from [1]. The images are also taken from the same website from the various shotgun pages. --Werbwerb 03:27, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

Questions on Ammunition section

Couple of claims here that I'd like to query - not being a shooter or firearms expert myself, i'll post here for others to check rather than editing myself.

1. "Buckshot is also used for hunting large game, up to the size of bear or deer" - does anyone really use buckshot for bear?? I'd always heard that the largest game buckshot was suitable for was small- to medium deer (hence, buckshot...). While i don't shoot or hunt myself, i know people who do, and have some knowledge, and I've never heard anyone say buckshot was suitable for bear. Maybe the writer meant boar?

Could be; buckshot is a bit light on penetration to use against bears. Generally for bear you want something that will penetrate DEEP, because if you don't stop the bear, it might stop you. .45-70 is generally the lightest thing recommended for defense against bear, the Marlin 1895 with a short barrel being on par with a shotgun for size and weight, and provides a much tougher bullet.

2."Slugs give the shotgun greater reach, are effective against most body armor and can even disable a vehicle." Really? Slugs can disable a vehicle? Again, I've never heard that (at least not that they are any more effective than any other bullet type -e.g any of the standard military rifle calibres). Also, "effective against most body armour" seems misleading from my reading. Against NIJ Levels I, IIA and II, maybe. But most military, if they are wearing armour, wear at least level IIIA, if not Level IV (with solid rifle plates). Shotgun slugs will certainly not penetrate Rifle Plates, and probably not Level IIIA or above soft armour. See http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm for a practical test, and http://www.bulletproofme.com/NIJ_Test_Rounds_CHART.shtml for some data- NIJ level IIIA is listed as stopping .44 Magnum, which has a higher velocity than most shotgun slugs, and Level III will stop 7.62 x 51 NATO (.308 Winchester) FMJ, so it would certainly stop a slug. Shotgun slugs may be effective against lower level armour, but not against most military armour- which is the context of the article.

Most body armor is lighter than military stuff, and a shotgun slug has the advantage of a lot of mass, and can break ribs even if it doesn't penetrate--just look at the armor tests done with clay backing, the slugs leave fist-sized imprints in the clay. A slug will also punch right though sheet metal that will turn smallbore bullets, so effectiveness against vehicles is certainly more than any 5.5mm military cartridge, and probably compared to the 7.62x39mm, unless the shooter can get a square shot to prevent deflection. The 12 gauge slug is still the ultimate brush gun, because even a twig can deflect nearly all smallbore rifle bullets, but a slug (or any other big, fat, low velocity bullet) will cut right through it with minimal deflection--Chuck Hawk's site mentions tests run using shots fired through a woven twig screen at a target at varying ranges behind the screen, and high velocity pointed bullets were off target in a matter of feet.

As i said, i'm not an expert, just an interested web-browser. would prefer to have my conclusions checked but someone with a little more expertise!

Ian, 06.24.06

Actually, the point about slugs is probably moot--I'm not sure the military really uses them. Military teams mix shotguns with assault rifles, so the shotgun is going to be used purely in a short-range role, loaded with buckshot for room clearing, door breaching, and the like. I'll take a look at the article again tomorrow and do some pruning. scot 19:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Thats exactly the kind of response i was hoping for- someone with more knowledge to check over the article. Given what you've said, i would say the reference to bear should be removed. Shotgun slug certainly ain't 45-70! I'll leave you do decide on the body armour reference- i accept that most armour isn't military level, but the context of that sentence is the military use of slug, so it seems some acknowledgement that even high level soft armour (let alone rifle plates) will stop a slug ought to be in there. --82.20.244.207 22:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)Ian, 06.25.06

So far, I've found a reference on the DOD website for a JAN-S-726 spec for 12 gauge ammunition, but it was canceled in 1949, and they don't have the scanned doc online. The 3443G spec for shotguns (currently filled by the Mossberg 590A1 mentions in section 3.17.3 "standard velocity commercial 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inch, 00 buckshot (9 pellets) maximum load cartridges conforming to SAAMI standards". Also, the 3.17.4 sections (looking at rev. D of the spec, from 1975) involve patterning the shotgun, with a minimum of 1/3 of the pellets in a 30 inch diameter circle at 40 yards. That's a pretty wide pattern (as expected from a cylinder bore) and that puts the effective range at under 40 ayrds. Unfortunately, I can't get into the Army's doctrine library (gotta have a military supplied ID to get in, it used to be open to the public for non-classified stuff) so I can't look up the shotgun doctrine stuff. I know someone active in the OK Nat'l Guard (shipping out in a few months, in fact), I'll see if he can look it up for me. scot 16:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, whaddaya know, I happened to have the Army Ammunition Data Sheets for small caliber ammuntition (TM 43-0001-27) from April 1994 on my computer. They list 5 types of 12 gauge ammunition:

• No designation, paper cased 00 buckshot load, probably the old pre-1949 spec stuff
• M162, all plastic case 00 buckshot load for guard/combat use
• M19, all brass case 00 buckshot load for guard/combat use
• M257, plastic case (with brass rim in illustration), #4 hard antimony lead shot, guard duty/riot control use in 20" full choke barrel
• M274, paper or plastic case, #4 hard chilled shot, small game and riot control use

And, just as a side note, the specs list a .45 caliber line throwing blank, used in a .45-70 line throwing gun...who'd have thought that the .45-70 was still in the military inventory. scot 16:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"Scot", I assume the page as currently altered is your work? If so, thanks! Far more specific now, and confines itself to current and past ammunition actually used by the military, and its applications. This is surely the way to go! --82.20.244.207 16:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)Ian., 06.26.06

Yep, "Fluzwup" is my user ID and that was my edit. BTW, if you're interested in the history of combat shotguns, from the old "buck and ball" musket loads to the current cutting edge, read the JSCS Program report. It makes quite interesting reading, especially the statis the Brits did on hit probabilities: 1 in 11 for an assault rifle, 1 in 8 for an SMG, 1 in 5ish for a shotgun. Which just goes to support my long held belief that the search for the "all purpose" cartridge is a pipe dream, and infantry squads should be composed of a couple of Designated Riflemen with battle rifles for long range work, and the rest split between assault rifles, for medium range and suppressive fire, and shotguns, for close in work and special purpose stuff like door breaching work, and the new Frag-12 experimental indirect fire rounds. You'd want everyone crosstrained, of course, so you could very the assault rifle/shotgun mix as needed for the mission--more shotguns for urban work, more rifles for flat terrain. DR's you'd probably want to keep constant, even in urban work they'd be good for countersniper fire.

One more thing I might do is yank the police section. Police use falls more under the riot shotgun category than the combat shotgun, so I think a cross-link directing people here for military use and there for police use would be best. scot 18:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with you about the police section. And thanks for the link- absolutely fascinating! Again, thanks for your improvements to this article.

--82.20.244.207 14:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)Ian, 07.01.06

Legality

I seem to remember reading that there's some international law (Geneva Convention?) that forbids the use of shotguns in combat. Anyone know anything about this?
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 22:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

No such law, to the best of my knowledge. Germany did, however, protest the use of combat shotguns by the US during WW I, but the outcome was that there was no violation of any treaties or conventions, and no changes were made. Shotguns were also used later in WW II, Korea, and Viet Nam, and are also used even today by US military forces. Yaf 03:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe there was a provision added to the Geneva Convention at one point, but no one signed that provision. Combat shotguns are quite simply to useful.--LWF 14:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The best analysis I've run across was a legal breif by a US Amry JAG officer, who did an historical analysis of shotgun use in combat, and a legal review of it's legitamacy according to the laws of war, when the military was working on what became the M1014 joint combat shotgun. The full breif is here. To sum up, shotguns have been effectively used for as long as firearms have been around; the buck and ball loading in a musket, or a handfull of pistol balls in a musketoon were functionally equivalent to a buckshot load, and when rifled muskets came into use during the American Civil War, the fowling piece (which is what shotguns were called before they were called shotguns) served with both sides. The first challeng under the laws of war was when the Germans issued a protest to Allied use of trench guns in 1918, on the grounds that they caused undue suffering and therefore were forbidden by the terms of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which states:

That the only legitimate object which States should endeavour to accomplish during war is to weaken the military forces of the enemy;

That for this purpose it is sufficient to disable the greatest possible number of men;

That this object would be exceeded by the employment of arms which uselessly aggravate the sufferings of disabled men, or render their death inevitable;

That the employment of such arms would, therefore, be contrary to the laws of humanity;

The US Army's position on this was that a shotgun was designed to inflict casualties on mulitple targets at long range, just like a bursting artillery shell--exploding shells of over 400 grams are allowed, while exploding rifle bullets such as those used by the Russians were banned by the treaty (this is also what limits the Raufoss Mk 211 to antimateriel use). And, just like a bursting artillery shells, standing too close to the burst results in far more serious wounds, but that's acceptable because it's a side effect of trying to wound as many targets as possible, which is allowed. Likewise, the shotgun, loaded with buckshot, would wound multiple targets at long range (far less lethally than a rifle or machine gun round), and if you get too close, the multiple projectile impacts are just a side effect. The other argument that might ban the use of buckshot would be the Hauge Convention of 1899, Declaration III, which bans:

...the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

This was targeted at the British Dum-dum rounds, which were .303 British rounds loaded with jacketed hollow point bullets. The use of pure lead buckshot, which does expand pretty easily even at low buckshot velocities, could be considered banned by this. However, since this soft buckshot deforms upon firing as well, resulting in wider patterns, shorter range, and lowered penetration, the military uses either plated or antimony hardened buckshot, which does not deform significantly more than the typical military full metal jacket bullet upon impact. Standard shotgun slugs in civilian and police use do deform very significantly upon impact, so those would likely be prohibited; a non-expanding slug made of a hard allow, such as brass or copper, would probably be allowable, depending on comparitive performance against the FMJ rounds.

Germany, in their manual on the laws of war, does prohibit the use of the shotgun in combat; however, the German military also uses a former Soviet copy of the US M18A1 Claymore Antipersonnel Mine, which is functionally identical to a giant shotgun, only with a spread measured in radians, not degrees, of arc. The only restrictions on claymore type mines are general restrictions on landmines; since a shotgun is individually targeted and "command detonated", then it's exempt from those restrictions.

On the other side, shotguns ARE really useful. Loaded with buckshot and used at ranges of 35 meters or less, they are far and away the most effective infantry weapon, vastly superior to either an assault rifle or submachine gun, and are effective out to 75 meters. Add to that the vast array of rounds, such as door breaching rounds, flechette, slugs (assuming a sufficiently non-deforming design), and exotic stuff like the Frag-12 fragmentation grenade rounds, and considering that a mil-spec Mossberg 590A1 is running the military a whopping $316 each, I'm of the opinion that the military needs to be running about 50/50 shotguns and assault rifles in jungle or urban operations. scot 18:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?

in one of the sections there is a large space of blank. has someone been blanking off pages? (Gooly 20:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC))