Talk:Jakov Mikalja

About Illyric language

About Illyric language. See this link. http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4689/grabovac.htm, about fra Filip Grabovac, the author of Cvit razgovora naroda i jezika iliričkoga aliti arvackoga (...Illyric or Croat).
Or this title, from the the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result [1].
A dictionary by Andrija Jambrešić and Franjo Sušnik.
Title is : Lexicon Latinum interpretatione Illyrica, Germanica et Hungarica locuples : in usum potissimum studiosae juventutis / digestum ab Andrea Jambressich, Societatis Jesu sacerdote, Croata Zagoriensi Impresum: Zagrabi[ae] : Typis Academicis Societatis Jesu, [per A. W. Wesseli] , 1742 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result [2].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

From the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..
The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata".
Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html Kubura 19:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not possible to understand what you want to show with the above quotations.--Giovanni Giove 22:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The article should be named Jakov Mikalja.
Also, I supposed which questions might arose, so I've intercepted them. Kubura 13:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

And, again, "Serbocroatian"?
What Serbs are you talking about?
What are you doing, Giove? Playing dumb?
Ignoring and deleting my data I've posted here???
That's vandalism!
POV-ising with inserting adjective "Serbo-" where isn't any there and deleting any lines that link to Croatian language [3] and deleting (???) the sourcenames in original Croatian [4] (you've deleted the lines Blago jezika slovinskoga illi slovnik u komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski i Diacki). Kubura 14:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If its hard for you to click on the link that speak about Mikalja, here're the scans from the page [5].
On the first scan [6] you have following text, a page from Croat-Italian-Latin dictionary:
hrrivat. Hervat; Croata; Illyricus, i. Croata; ae.
hrrivaçia. Hervarska zemglja; Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum, ci. Croatia, ae.
On the second scan [7], there's the front page. Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Mikalja/Micaglia is not just Croat, or just Italian

@Giovanni: Please stop reverting everything. Be constructive.
Do not just change Croatian to Illyrian or Serbocroatian etc. First mentioning of Serbocroatian is in 18th century. Equality between name "Illyrian language" and "Croatian" is documented and well known, so it is not unsubstantiated. He is known by name "Mikalja" not only in Croatia, so don't refer to his name like it is only in Croatia.
@Kubura: He is definitely Italian, and Croat too. So please leave adjective "Italian" where it is.
--Plantago 11:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Micaglia himself declared to be Italian. End of discussion. All other claims are totally sourced: most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian. Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

First - I wrote "Italian...of Croatian origin", and that is what he said too. Is there a problem with that? Napoleon was Frenchman, but Corsican too. Stalin was Great Russian, but Georgian by origin. You are Italian, but proud of your Venetian origin. Venetians are/were not Italian by ethnicity, but are Italians by nationality. So, he is Italian by nationality, and declared that he had non-Italian origin.

Micaglia is not of Croat origin, but of 'South Slavic': you cant claim is just 'Croat'. YOU have to tell why, according to you , is "Croat".

Actually, no. He didn't say he is of South Slavic origin. He said he is "Slovin"/Illyrian by language. He was not Czech, Russian, Bulgarian or Slovenian speaking. Then, we have to ask ourselves what was he in that case? He was a) Italian by nationality b) Catholic Christian c) speaking "Slovinski". Can we ask them to say would he call himself a Croat? No, not directly. But scholars, both from Italy and Croatia, with some exemptions like Milan Resetar, who gives "Serbocroatian" origin, regard him today as a Croat, based on the information from his history and works, and Wikipedia always gives emphasis on majority opinion. Links confirming this claim are stated in References and External links sections. --Plantago 08:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Second, your statement "most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian" is not completely clear. What does it mean? Is it in connection to the new section you just added to the article, claiming that Illyrian is not Croatian because Croatian was standardized in 19th century? When was Italian or German standardized? Does it mean that language has to be standardized to exist!? What are your references for such claims. I will put "original research" mark on that section, because you didn't cite any source. Please read articles about your language, German, English, Croatian, Serbian, Serbo-Croatian, whatever, and then try to write relevant addition to article. Just to mention, this article is not your property, so you can just delete work of anyone but you, including referenced literature. Maybe expert opinion would be good answer? --Plantago 12:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Italian was studied and standardized in XIV etc. German shortly later, Croat in XIX cent. Before XIX cent. nobody ever talked about a 'Croatian' language outside historical Croatia (such us in Dalmatia, Ragusa or whatever). There are no linguistic distinction between the 3 serbocroatian dialects (if you like it....). If the 'serbocroatian' word is now unpopular in Croatia for political reasons, find an equivalent word. But don't claim for what is not yours (or belongs just in part). The dictionary is based on 'Bosnian' language; so, why it is not a 'Bosnian Dictionary)?... can you claim that Bosnia is or was part of 'Croatia'? Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

So back to the point - this is NOT article about any language, but the guy called Giacomo Micaglio AND Jakov Mikalja, who was Jesuit and lexicographer. All other is in the wrong place (how old is his name, what is illyrian, what is Bosnian etc.).
His name, whether created in 13th or 20th century should be mentioned without any restrictions, if he is known in some parts of the world (at least Slavic-language speaking countries - from Russia to Croatia) by that name. It may be violation of NPOV of Slavic historiographers and linguists, but it is not on us to judge is it right or not, as it is against Wikipedia policy. It is not on us to judge is Illyrian different from Croatian, is it also Serbian or what, because relevant (please, relevant here means linguistic) sources (Italian also!) explicitly mention Illyric of that time as equivalent to Croatian, or if you want me to say this way - language which is spoken between people on Eastern coast of Adriatic see, covering not only Dalmatia and Republic of Ragusa, but also southern parts of Bosnia, which are oriented to Adriatic (actually, medieval Bosnian kingdom and Ottoman province of Bosnia ruled big parts of Dalmatia for a long time). The aim of his work was the help in counter-reform struggle in Dalmatia and other places, to get people back to proper Catholic faith, as it is already written in the article. People who he was trying to get back to the "mother church" were definitely NOT Muslim (whose self-identification was Turks or Poturica, nowadays Bosniaks) or Orthodox Christians (identified as Serbs), but former Catholic Christians who became Protestants, which were and are identified as Croats. Remember that the main difference between people of that time was religion, especially in Balkans (unfortunately, also today).
And finally - Giovanni's remark about standardization of Croatian, I have to disappoint him - language standardization has nothing with language existence. People in Italy spoke something, first Vulgar Latin and then Italian even before Divine comedy, as synthesis between Southern Italian and Tuscan Italian was written. Even though, Croatian was not standardized in XIX century (1850), only the current standard was than accepted and joint agenda agreed with Serbs, and only from that time noun Serbo-Croatian exists. Before that, there were various standards, much older (ironically, one of them based on prints in Venice in 1595 and Rome in 1604). Please read Croatian language#History. If he has some new information to discuss, I am inviting him to join that article's discussion and leave poor Giacomo/Jacob/Jakov rest in peace.--Plantago 06:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You agree with me in the basic point. The difference between the different former-Jugo people is not based on the language, so that it's a nonsense to attribute the therm 'Croat' to Micaglia's work: Serbs and Croats share the same dialects. It's a nonsense to called this dialects 'Croats', just because they were collected by Catholic (BTW Italian). ....or do you want to say he talked just with catholics?... or that Muslim and orthodox had different dialects? So... please!

You asked me about the standardization of Italian I just answered,: it was the 1st European language to be standardized (see. De vulgari eloquentia).

Finally, if you trust in me or not, I'm not a nationalist, and I don't hate Croatia. But I'm not responsible of the many hoaxes present in the official Croatian history (I'm no happy to tell you this). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giovanni Giove (talk • contribs) 08:33, 2 June 2007

Giovanni Giove? You've written above "Serbs and Croats share the same dialects". In short: Croats are the only speakers of Chakavian (subdialects with Ikavian, Ekavian and Jekavian speech) and Kajkavian (subdialects with Ekavian and Ikavian speech) dialect. Shtokavian dialect also has more "subdialects", that can be referred exclusively to one nation. Slavonian Shtokavian (mostly Ikavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Croats. East Bosnian Shtokavian (mostly Jekavian speech) is spoken among Croats, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and as minor, among Serbs (on the mountain Ozren). Kosovo-Resava Shtokavian (Ekavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Serbs. Zeta-Sanjak Shtokavian (Ijekavian speech) is spoken mostly by Montenegrins, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Serbs. Bosnian-West Herzegovina-Dalmatian Shtokavian (Ikavian speech) is spoken exclusively by Croats. Dubrovnik Shtokavian (Ijekavian speech) was in past an individual, today is more similar with East Herzegovina Shtokavian (but still has its "specialties"). East Herzegovina Shtokavian (Ijekavian) is spoken by the Serbs, Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks), Montenegrins and Croats. Vojvodina-Šumadija Shtokavian (Ekavian speech) is spoken exclusively by the Serbs. Torlakian dialect doesn't belong to this group. In fact, this is a ...interdialect, transitional from Serb language to Bulgarian and Macedonian language. Exclusively spoken by Serbs. There's a small enclave of Croats in Romania that speaks with this dialect, but that doesn't change the picture, that's the dialect of Serb language. So, you see, it's not the case that "Croats and Serbs share the same dialects." Kubura 20:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I suggest that you open article about Illyric language, and we will chat about this there. In the meantime, unsourced and misunderstood identification of dialects and languages and "Controversies" section will be deleted. For hoax about this issue, way this guy wrote his name etc. please see Italian encyclopaedia. --Plantago 08:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Ital. books are OK about history, just like German, French (or whatever) books. Croatian books will reach the same level in few years; it's enough to give to the democracy the proper time to push out all the Nationalistic debrishes of the Communist and Post-communist regimes. Don't delet again the paragraph; it is in topic, and it is normal to add when a wrong concept is normally regarded as true (and this is, without discussion, the present case).--Giovanni Giove 09:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove, it's sad and awful to see such statements written ("the books"). You're underestimating, undervalueating and belittleing the scientific and cultural work of small peoples. Maybe Croats aren't numerous nation, we aren't rich, but that doesn't mean that we live in stone age. If you think that "proper" scientific approach is one where you give up your cultural heritage to anyone who wants to usurpate it, you're wrong. Why haven't you asked yourself what evil has been done by Italian fascists in Croatia and Slovenia, while Italian "books" and politicians romanticize Mussolini's rule? Kubura 21:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. I asked you to look at Italian encyclopedia and use it as the source for this article, if you think that Croatian sources are biased. Second, your paragraph is poorly written, with unsourced statements, original research (you state your own undocumented claims and opinions) and it doesn't belong here, so that is why I deleted it, not because it is about Illyrian-Croatian-Serbocroatian language dispute. Why can't you write something here on talk page, and work on it together with others, until we have consensus? Are you on some kind of crusade? If you don't want me or anybody else to delete it, than move it here and let's discuss from word to word. Additionally, I found international sources for other Mikalja's name spellings, so please don't delete it. Cheers,--Plantago 09:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionaly, I am very disappointed how rude you are. I had added few links, and made few changes, and you simply reverted it all, instead adding your paragraph. Either you don't know how to properly work but only revert, or it was intentionally?--Plantago 09:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Plantago, I know about the problem.
I've seen a link where it states that Jakov was born in Peschici, on peninsula of Gargano.
In fact, the link from Italian domain, Reportonline, [8], speaks about Latino-Croat dictionary (Una storia secolare culminata nel vocabolario Latino-Croato Che i gesuiti usarono per portare la Controriforma in Croazia).
I've also seen the line "Egli si definitiva salvo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità ed originario, appunto, di Peschici".
I respect that. I don't deny that. Unless someone made a "hairdressing" of data.
Regarding the history of Croatian language, on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik, I wrote a bunch of text with a bunch of links to the library of HAZU, Croatian academy of sciences and arts. Some of those links contain scanned pages of the works that deal with Croatian, Illyrian, use of Croatian language in previous centuries (not just in 20th century, as one user said). But, Giovanni Giove ignored that. In fact, he said: [9]. "Kubura's comments are false, Kubura was NEVER able to prove that Giovanni Giove's edits are wrong". Yeah, wright, starting with the language. Kubura 07:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Take a break, poor Kubura. You wrote nothing in Ragusa talk page. Nobody deny that Illyrics texts were wrotten in Ragusa. It's you that deny that also Italian texts were wrotten.

Where have I denied that? Or you're playing dumb again?
If you remember, I've written on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik: "...They (higher social classes) spoke and used Italian language, only to differ them from the serfs and other lower social classes. That is the case that existed all over Europe. ...". on 11 August 2006, 08:35.
On 13 February 2007, 12:38, I've written:"Third, Ragusean Dalmatian language is not the same as Italian language, neither belongs to the same subgroup of Romanic languages".
I just disagree with someone's overestimations of use of Italian language, as well as of presence of Italians. Do you know the information that women rarely spoke Italian?
In contemporary Croatia the Esperanto texts are also written, exclusively by highly educated people, but that doesn't make Croatia as Esperanto country. Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"Hrvatski leksikon" (edition from 1995) speaks about Mikalja as a "descendant of Croat refugees from Dalmatia, that went into refuge (into Italy) because of Ottoman advance".Kubura 20:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

On the page from Matica hrvatska (link added, text by Vladimir Horvat), the author speaks about the Croat origins of Jakov Mikalja (and explains them). Kubura 21:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Name

This is an article about an Italian guy called Giacamo Micaglia. The Croatian transaltion of his name is just a translation, and it was never used by the guy. His only name is Giacomo Micaglia. He can't be classified of Croat origin. Mikalija is anyway inserted (as a translation)--Giovanni Giove 13:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

About his name

From the link [10]. "GRAMMATIKA TALIANSKA U KRATH(!)O ILLI KRATAK NAUK ZA NAUCITTI LATINSKI JEZIK. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove. Loreto, 1649. ..."
After the preface, there's an intro to grammar Grammatika talianska u kratho illi kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik. Koga slovinski upisa Otaç Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove". (Italian Grammar in short lines or short way to learn Latin. In Slovinic written by father Jacov Mikaglja Drusgbe Isusove).
There's a picture of that page in "Hrvatski leksikon", by the article that speaks about Jakov Mikalja. Kubura 21:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want the scan of that page, I'll do it, but I'll have to ask the authors of the lexikon, because of copyright issues. Although, I don't know if that would have any sense... you're persistently ignoring all pages with scans (that I've posted you on the talk page of Republic of Dubrovnik) that are from catalogue of library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts.Kubura

Controversy

So, let's do some work with last Giovanni Giove amandment. Here is "Controversy" section:
Micaglia's Dictionary is often presented as a Croatian dictionary [3][4]. - By whom, and who is opposed to that, if it is "often presented"?.
The dictionary, anyway, is better described by the word Serbocroatian, because the present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects and because Micaglia collected words of different South Slavic dialects , outside the present day Croatia (mainly in Bosnia). - How he could collect words only outside present day Croatia, if he was in Dubrovnik/Ragusa, and not in Bosnia at all? Bosnian dialect is not Bosnian language, but Shtokavian dialect, spoken by many of Bosnian citizens. Who qualified you to "better describe it as Serbocroatian"? Language then is not as language now. Original research..
Futhermore the therm Illyric formerly described all the slavic dialects spoken in the Balkans, without regard of religions, and location; all these dialects were still vernacular and not already developed into a Croatian (or Serbian) national language. - Source for the claim? Do you have linguist reference of some kind for this? Original research.
That why the word Illyric shall be reffered to all the former Yugoslavian dialects; it can consequently be properly described by the therm Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). - I see what you mean. Definitely you cannot do that, even was it truth, and it didn't, because Mikalja didn't include eastern dialects and only a little of northern dialects anyhow. It appears to me that you have an idealistic approach: They all speak the common language, so let's say he belongs to everybody, forget that nationalistic quarrels. Well, that can be truth or not, but you have to prove that Illyric is equal to Serbocroatian (or "Central South Slavic diasystem"). Mikalja belongs to Croatian culture (and Italian, of course), not Serbian or Bosniak, and because of that is regarded as one of the first Croatian lexicographers. Languages develop. Do you think that Vuk Karadzic is regarded by anyone in Croatia or Serbia as lexicograph and reformer of Serbocroatian?. Unsupported claims.
After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja. There are older works, even before Yugoslavia, and also during Yugoslavia, mentioning him as one of foundations of Croatian written literature
A similar problem regard Micaglia himself, often presented as the Croatian linguist Jakov Mikalja. Thus Micaglia himself declared to be Italian, and Mikalja is a recent translation of the Italian name. - Well, this is the claim I see from you all the time. Where is the proof? I mentioned other two official ways of writing his name, together with sources. Pronountiation is the same as Croatian name, just ortography is different. He never said he is Italian by ethnicity, but of Italian nationality - it means he is citizen of one of Italian countries (Kingdom of Naples, Italy didn't exist at that time as one country)--Plantago 13:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's more. It's important what Mikalja had in mind when he said "Illyric".
In that very samedictionary, he explicitly declared "Illyricus" as Croat. See [11] and [12] and front page [13]. I'm posting this argument for the SECOND TIME. What do you want more?
"present days ethnic groups of former Yugoslavia share the same dialects. Wrong. Read my contribution above (with the bold letters), that deal with dialects of Croats and Serbs.
Then this section "After the breakdown of Jugoslavia, the therm Serborcratian has anyway became unpopular in Croatia. - Official language in Croatia was always called Croatian OR Serbian. So it was unpopular always:-) This has nothing with Mikalja.".
Serbocroatian was never popular term in Croatia. Even during Yugoslavia. It was considered as serious provocation in Croatia (as well as among the Croats in BiH), if someone told you "Speak Serbocroatian!" or even worse version "Speak Serbian so the whole world can understand you!". Second, official language in Croatia hasn't always been called "Croatian or Serbian". Wrong. The name "Croat or Serb" was official solely in the period from 1970-1990. Any political move towards changing that made serious problem to the one who wanted that. Yugounitarist communists penalized such persons. See the talkpage Talk:Differences_between_standard_Serbian,_Croatian_and_Bosnian#About_.22unwanted_tendencies.22_and_language_policy.
About Mikalja's ethnicity, read the article about him by Jesuit writer prof. Vladimir Horvat (he teaches on Faculty of Philosophy of Societas Jes`u in Zagreb, www.ffdi.hr) - there he explained why we should consider Mikalja as Croat; you can download it from the internet. Here's the link [14]. Giove, there you have the link.

Well, you cannot assume that Giove understands that article. It is nice reference, but in Croatian. Cheers, --Plantago 05:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That scientific work wasn't written in "some book at Nowhereland, so nobody can read it or criticize it". That work was present in symposium held in Ancona (as I said above). Kubura 20:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh my good, I wasn't here for some time and what happened?!Furthermore the therm Illyric formerly described to the all the Serbocroatian and Slovenian dialects - Giove, this reference is from Illyrian movement, some centuries AFTER J.M.! Or you want to say that Slovenian is also a dialect, and it is part of S-C, because it was still vernacular at that time. Well, than add please Bulgarian too, because it was also called Illyrian sometimes. It seems that "vernacular" is your ultimate argument. Well, I have news: Dante's construct is also "vernacular" by your criteria, because it was not officially standardized until mid-1800, just like Croatian. Please learn Italian language history first.

All these dialects were still vernacular during Micalglia's time, and not already developed into a Croatian or Serbian standard language. This definition was still in use the mid of 19th century. It is interesting that in this time, the Dalmatian and the Bosnian dialects were not classified as Croatian, but as 'Servian' dialects. In fact the therm 'Croatian dialect' was referred only to the the small Kingdom of Croatia, around Zagreb - what is this? Which definition? There is no definition given. What was not classified, by whom? You gave some reference to nothing - just some links to links. So now you also mention that there IS Serbian language, and Croatian too, as separate!? Do they exist or not? I'll delete this rubbish boldly.

Did you change any article about Tzar Dusan's law, from Servian to Serbo-Croatian? No? Why? Please do it and stop playing here. --Plantago 13:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Works about Jakov Mikalja

Vladimir Horvat wrote about him.
He explained Mikalja's Croat origin in a symposium held in Ancona, when speaking about Croat Jesuits lexicographers of 17th century.
The work is:
Vladimir Horvat: I lessicografi gesuiti del Seicento tra le due sponde: Bartol Kašić - Cassius - Cassio (Pag, 1575-1650, Roma), e Jakov Mikalja - Mica(g)lia (Peschici, 1601-1654, Loreto). Homo adriaticus - identitt`a culturale e autocoscienza attraverso i secoli, Atti del convegno internazionale di studio organizzato dalla Accademia Marchigiana di Scienze e Lettere ed Arti, Ancona, 9-12 novembre 1993. Edizioni Diabasis, Reggio Emilia, 1998, str. 105.-116.
He also had an article, there's also a link on the internet; though, the text is in Croatian. This reference is from that article.
Still, I hope this'll help. Kubura 21:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't.--Giovanni Giove 22:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Italian books aren't good anymore? Or Ancona isn't "enough Italian"? Or the ferry that regularly links Ancona with Croatia, spoiled Ancona's validity? Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, Vladimir Horvat is a Jesuit, ph.D., a professor on Philosophic faculty of Societas Gesú in Zagreb.
He wrote an article in magazine "Obnovljeni život" of Philosophic faculty [15], (Jakov Mikalja, isusovac-leksikograf 400. obljetnica rođenja (1601-1654) i 350. obljetnica tiskanja (1651) prvog hrvatskog rječnika Blago jezika slovinskoga). Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Here're some other links. Some are in Croatian, but some texts contain parts in Latin or Italian, that should be helpful.
http://www.matica.hr/Kolo/kolo0301.nsf/AllWebDocs/lex ("Kolo" magazine of Matica hrvatska, Matrix croatica).
http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20010924/kultura.htm
http://www.matis.hr/zbornici/2002/text/du_322.htm The magazine of Croat matrix of diaspora (Matica iseljenika; I'm not so good in Latin).
http://www.hrvatskiplus.org/Default.aspx?art=34&sec=21 The site of Zagreb school of Slavistics. See how they name Jakov Mikalja. Kubura 22:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

==

Serbian fascists (1945. i 1995. respectively). Wanna replay, eh ? Mir Harven 21:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh my God!.... . Harvy again fooling about irridentism :-) (it's funny that was never able to post a line fo enforce this idea
BUAAAHHHH.... the Grater Serbian Lunacy!!!!:-)))) Baby!... Mikalja was *invented* in XX century as *transation* of the Italian name. That if you like or not. Now I go ... I've to roast a Croatian child. YUMMMIII!--Giovanni Giove 22:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that it was "invented in the XX century"? Some credible sources would be nice. Also, your earlier comment on invalidity of croatian sources based on their "inherent" bias is very disturbing. So sources are valid as long as they're not croatian? That's a very chauvinistic attitude... --Dr.Gonzo 16:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you present some original documents of the time enforcing Mikalja? .... there are just an impressive amount of present day documents with Mikalija. It is know that is a Croatian habit to translate names,so.... In Croatia Giovanni Lupis is Ivan Lupis, Francesco Patrizi is Frane Petric, Giovanni Lucio is Ivan Lucic. etc etc. etc. ALL THIS NAMES ARE HOAXS. As a matter of fact.

You started deleting all Croatian references so the burden of proof is on you. I can provide at least 10 Croatian encyclopedias as proof but you would say that's just propaganda, right? So, let's hear your proof then. Btw, I absolutely don't approve what you're doing with deleting comments questioning your NPOV and I hope you realize the more you try to make them go away the more you're hurting your credibility. --Dr.Gonzo 19:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Provide! We will know that in present day Croatia, Micaglia is called 'Mikalja'. Provide a source to show that Micalja was used during his life (in any case it should be a nickname). Meanwhile a will provide you a *trustable* source about the deliberated falsfication that Croats do against the Italian persnolities of Dalmatia, among them the translation of all the name of the past in modern Croatian. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 07:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I've told you, on the second page of his dictionary, it uses name in Croatian, written in the ortography from those times.
Do you read the references I've mentioned at all?!?
Please, answer me.
Don't say: "that's vandalism", "I'll report you to admins", "that's falsificiation", "that's not a trustable source". That's not an answer.
Especially the racist remarks like "deliberate falsification that Croats do against Italian personalities of Dalmatia". Kubura 20:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

If we are going to play according to the rules, than the data in this article should be changed into the version I've given.
I gave my arguments/sources, you haven't, neither you've proven them wrong. Kubura 20:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, Giove, will you give your counterarguments? I warn you for the second time here. Kubura 19:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop to play Kubura. Now the article is totally referencied. Your personal opinions about the therm 'serbocroatian' are meaningless here.--Giovanni Giove 19:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Giove, I'm going to talk with you on your talk page also.
Stop using words like "your personal opinion".
Don't undervaluate other users' contributions, just because they oppose your contributions. Especially if opposers contributions are argumented.
My contributions aren't my opinions, I've referenced them.
You are avoiding procedures and playing dumb. Read well the sources I've posted. Don't lie (by calling such contributions as "personal opinions". Such ignorance is forbidden behaviour.
You've said: "Your personal opinions are meaningless here.". Beside your blatant lies, now you're even more belittleing opposers' contributions. Kubura 12:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Dispute is over

All the above kbytes of words are surpassed, as a matter of facts, Wilkinson's lines are quite clear in describing the therm 'Illyric'. I suppose the dispute is over. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 19:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, who is Wilkinson? And, when did he live? What does it have to do with Mikalja? If you have trouble with Croatian, Illyrian, Serbian, Serbocroatian, South-Slavic diasystem, Slovenian, Carynthian or any other language of interest, so use pages of these languages. Be so kind and stop vandalizing this page, otherwise I will go to report it, and I mean it.--Plantago 13:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, searck Wikipedia,is very useful! You wished a source to show the exact meaning that HAD the therm 'Illyric', now you have it, so don't ignore it. I've trouble with nothing, I never vandalized anuthing, report me as you like. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 19:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It was not question from ignorance but from knowledge. Mr. Wilkinson is famous traveller, but he is ignorant in linguistic matters. He calls ALL Slavic (or Slavonian by him) languages "dialects", however big or separate they are. And, if his dialect is de facto language, than we have the following: Illyrian group of languages is subdivided in Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian language. He is citing Vuk Stefanović Karadžić (pg.30), because he knows nothing. Karadžić at that time was on stand that Shtokavian is Serbian, and Chakavian and Kajkavian are Croatian, but he withdraw that attitude later (see discussion on his page). Additionally, he is citing Safaryk, whose attitude was close to the Karadžić's and that is: "There are three south Slavic languages. Serbian is equal to Shtokavian, all Stokavians are Serbs, regardless of history and/or religion (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim). Kaykavian and Chakavian are Croats. Carinthian is modern Slovenian."

This theory and political attitude is in the roots of modern Serbian extreme nationalism and expansionism and was abandoned eventually by Karadžić himself.

Mr. Wilkinson had complete mess in his head, and he is not in corelation with your opinion, because on pg. 27 he explicitly states the following:

(Slavonian)...consists of various dialects, the principal of which are Bohemian, Polish, Lusatian or Wend, Russian, Bulgarian, Illyrian, Croatian and Carinthian

So, was he right here, or in the other classification? You didn't prove anything. And, you are continuing to twist my sentences, abusing them for your goals. Rediculous twist from '"His work is integral part of development and standardization of Croatian modern language"' to '"Micglia (sic, don't you know to write it properly?) work was, of course, fundamental in the process of development and standardization of Croatian modern language, such us other Serbocroatian languages."' is NOT the compromise. I will revert this last edits, because they are in bad faith.

Still, I'm begging you to stop doing this to article. Start "Illyric (South Slavic) language" page, and let's build it.--Plantago 21:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What you have done, it's to point out the liguistic correctness of the theory. You totally miss the point, that is the exact translation of the therm Illyric. This therm (with no discussion) can not be resticted to the 'Croatian' language (by the way, still non existent in Micaglia's time).Wilkison's book shows clearrly that the therm Illyric was given to all the Serbcroatian lagnuages, (Croatian, Serbian or as you want to call them). Do not performe anymore massive reverts, deleting 'unconfortable' sources. THIS is vandalism. Best regards.--Giovanni Giove 21:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's get one thing straight Giove - there are no "serbocroatian" languages. This is a construct of the 20th century and Yugoslav unitarism. Croatian and Serbian have had completely separated historical development. At no point before the end of 19th century were they even considered as more than loosely related. So stop using terms Illyrian and Serbocroatian like they're interchangeable. They're not. The term Illyrian, was ALWAYS used to describe the language spoken in the Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia until the 19th century. Serbs NEVER accepted the term, so it DID exclusively relate to Croatian language. "Bosnian" language was never called Bosnian before the 1990s. Stop discussing matters you clearly know nothing about, and stop aggressively fighting every good faith edit to this article! --Dr.Gonzo 23:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The concept that there are no serbocroatian language it's a internal politic problem of Croatia, where history are rewrotten according the the political needs, because acctualy there ARE Serbocroatian dialects and languages. Before the 18th century the therm Illyric was given to all the South Slavs,in all Europe: the concept of Serbian and Croatian 'Nations' was not already developed. --Giovanni Giove 11:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me remind You what is Wikipedia - it is encyclopedia, which states generally accepted statements (theories, hypothesis), even wrong judgments if they are predominant, from today's point of view. So, there we are: Illyrian in Mikalja's era (1600's), Illyrian in Karadžić/Illyrian movement/Wilkinson era (1800's), Illyrian from point of view (2000's). There is, of course, Illyrian from Giove's point of view, but it is out of time... Minority statements CAN be mentioned, usually in Controversy section, IF they are documented AND accepted by relevant minority (of books, scientific works, generally acceptable sources - no extremist view). So far, there are two of you, and you are not relevant sources - you and Wilkinson.

My problem with you is WHAT are you really trying to proof?

• That standard Croatian and Serbian are today genetically one language?
  • Of course they are. It is well known fact. So are Hindi and Urdu.
• That ALL dialects are the same?
  • No.
• That, when Mikalja said Illyrian, he meant "language of Serbs and Croats".
  • I don't know, do you know? We only know that in his own book word Illyric is given as "Croatian, Slavonic (Slovinski)", and he is first hand source.
• Did he influence only Croatian (vernacular and standard), or Serbian (Bosnian, Montenegrin...) also?
  • What we know is that the FIRST Serbian dictionary appeared in 1880 (published by Yugoslav academy of science in Zagreb, Croatia), in the time Croats and Serbs were trying to build one language (thru compromises), but Croatian language developed thru centuries (under different names - Slavonian (Slovinski or Slovenski) (by Mikalja, Habdelić), Dalmatian (by (Faust Vrančić: Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europae linguarum—Latinae, Italicae, Germanicae, Dalmatiae et Ungaricae, Venice 1595), Illyrian (by Bartul Kašić: Institutionum linguae illyricae, libri duo, Rome 1604, and others), Croatian (even implicitly in 1600's (Mikalja), but definitely in 1741.) etc.), starting with even earlier works ("Baška tablet" inscribed in stone on island Krk from 11th century, "Istrian land survey" from 1275 and "The Vinodol Codex" from 1288. (in Chakavian), Vatican Croatian Prayer Book (ca. 1400) (in Shtokavian))
• That his legacy belongs to all Southslavic nations speaking today one of Serbocroatian languages?
  • No, because he didn't influence any of Serbian or Bosniak linguists, lexicographers etc.
• That Croats have no right to call his work belonging to only Croatian heritage, because there was no standardized language with that name in his time?
  • If so, you have no right to say that works in Venetian belong to Italian heritage, because they were in Venetian, not Italian. Standardization is not something given by god, or by act (cf. Dante's Italian).
• That his language is definitely not Croatian, because most words are from Bosnia, and Bosnia is not Croatia?
  • Well, Istra is not Italy, but Italians are living there, South Tirol is not Austria or Germany, but Germans are living there. Bosnia and Herzegovina is not Croatia, but Croats lived and still live there (today proportionally less than in that time, around 20%). Heritage of this parts of nation belongs to the nation as a whole.
• That Croats as nation didn't exist in 1600's, so we have no right to say that it is Croatian heritage, but heritage of the Slavic peoples of that time?
  • Of course there were Croats, but not in modern sense of nation, more like tribe. In Italy it was the same.

When you read all of this, you can see that it has almost nothing to do with Mikalja. So again, what are you trying to proof? I will "vandalize" article as long as I don't get answers on my questions, one by one. BR,--Plantago 17:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Warning about behaviour

What are we talking about?
Mikalja calls his dictionary:
"Blago jezika slovinskoga iliti slovnik/ Thesavrus lingvae illyricae sive dictionarium illyricum",
with line
"Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata"..
What do we want more here?
See link [16] with scanned page [17].
Don't play dumb, Giove. I'm posting this for the second time!
You're ignoring the first hand source!
You're becoming blatant, Giove. You're behaviour has crossed all limits. Kubura 13:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove, you've again made self-willing changes, without discussing it with other users [18].
You've continued to POV-ize, and you've also removed the tags that showed current condition of the article "disputed", "POV" and "original research".
Despite numerous explanations regarding the language, you've continued ot push your story and original research [19] and after the corrections explained on the talkpage, you've persistently ignored that and restored your POV version, after I've explicitly warned you for the SECOND time. You've done after that these changes/engaged in editwarring [20] and [21] and [22] and [23] and [24], [25], [26], [27].
Now you're warned for the THIRD time. Kubura 08:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The 'proof' above is simply a nonsense. The above use of a particular and a generic term does not prove anything. Also, you are obliged to be civil and not to 'support' your text by your anger.--Giorgio Orsini 13:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's see what Orsini has written here:

The 'proof' above is simply a nonsense. - Why? Because you think so? Do you ever intend to use arguments?

The above use of a particular and a generic term does not prove anything. - As usual, Orsini deliberately writes so that nobody can understand what he means.

Also, you are obliged to be civil and not to 'support' your text by your anger. - To finish it up, a touch of hypocrisy, as usual. Yes, I'm guilty of assuming that this user has been acting in bad faith for the past weeks. If I ignored it any further, I would be making a fool of myself. --Zmaj 13:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The map

"Map of Serbocroatian dialects". First, the translation is wrong. If you see, on that map, you'll se "Karta dijalekata hrvatskog ili srpskog jezika" ("Map of dialects of Croatian or Serbian language").
Second, some of authors of that book are signers of "Novi Sad agreement", that infuriated Croatian linguistic and academic community, because that "agreement" was an ordinary language submission (official language merging policy at the expense of Croatian).
Third, consider political circumstances from those times. Any scientifical work, or even worse, Croatian political iniciative on insisting of separate development of Croatian and Serbian language (as those languages had) brought severe political problems, police persecutions, imprisonments (under accusation of "destroying" the "unity of Croats and Serbs", "achievements of revolutions", "counterrevolutionary activity"....). See more on articles that deal with that. I've posted a bunch of material on the talkpage and articlepages. Kubura 08:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Calm down, would you, please! The EU is quite clear - former Yugoslavia's republic (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina) must comply to a single linguistic standard i.e. to the same language. Balkanization of this language is not acceptable in the world. Your 'articles' are just pieces of the current political propaganda in Croatia.--Giorgio Orsini 13:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

LOL. Even if the "EU" had any such authority do you really think it would go through without any kind of reaction from Croatia. I live here, and I never heard such nonsense. You are just a little troll aren't you? --Dr.Gonzo 13:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Orsini. Two users lost patience with you in a time span of four minutes. Instead of wasting time on his malicious edits, I believe it's time we warned someone about this guy. What do you think, Dr.Gonzo? --Zmaj 13:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we should start a RfC, since we're clearly not getting anywhere. Until then, I believe everyone should refrain from making any more edits to the article (although I doubt me saying so will stop anyone). Enough with the edit wars, this is becoming ridiculous! And yes, I believe Giove is acting in bad faith, but that's not for me to decide. --Dr.Gonzo 13:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I have already warned one of the admins. I find it strange that after Giovanni Giove gets blocked for his edit warring vandalism and 3RR that another user comes along having exactly the same arguments, exactly the same attitude and making exactly the same reverts. Chances for that are one in a billion. Hopefully someone will do something about this. --No.13 14:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources in Italian

http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/lezioni/f_lv3.htm - a certain user mentioned this link as reference, because in it says "era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva slavo di lingua, italiano di nazionalità e originario, appunto, di Peschici (Coluccia 1992, 703)".
But, at the same time, on that very same page, says:
1) In passato, dall’area molto più ampia di quella odierna su cui erano sparsi gli insediamenti croati, vennero iniziative importanti.
2) Uscì in epoca controriformistica, nel 1649-51, il primo dizionario latino-italiano-croato pervenuto, che doveva servire ai Gesuiti attivi nella Croazia: era opera del gesuita Giacomo Micaglia, nativo di Peschici (nel promontorio del Gargano), il quale si definiva...
3) Ora, nel dialetto moderno di Peschici sono stati individuati croatismi che autorizzano a giudicare quel centro una colonia slava poi sommersa (Rohlfs 1958).
4) Dunque l’insediamento croato in Italia dava la nascita a un religioso pronto a utilizzare la propria conoscenza della lingua per collaborare a un’iniziativa che dalla colonia tornava alla madrepatria.
5) A queste fitte relazioni quattrocentesche risalgono gli insediamenti albanesi nell’Italia meridionale: la relazione del 1654-59 citata di sopra allude appunto alla fuga dalla dominazione turca (che è anche alla base delle colonie croate).
According to these lines on that link, I've made some changes in the article. Kubura 06:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Kubura, a little bit of translation please, I can understand (or believe to understand) somehow, but what about others? I know you can do it! BR, --Plantago 13:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

As a first hand, boldened texts speaks about "Croat settlements" and "Croatian colonies" in Italy , "Latin-Italian-Croat dictionary" by Mikalja, "Croatisms in modern dialect of Peschici" (birthplace of Mikalja). Full translation to follow. Kubura 12:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)