Template talk:Professional gridiron football leagues in North America: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 14:25, 9 July 2007

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Minor League

What's the definition of "minor league" football (i.e. what's the distinction from "professional")? They're not exactly exclusive concepts. Professional usually just means "paid", perhaps distinguishd from "semi-professional" in that they pay equivalent to a full-time salary or better (or something like that). I'm thinking specifically of the Canadian Football League What's a WP:NPOV way to make that distinction? It could be argued that the CFL is a professional league. I think it's quite a POV thing to say the NFL is the only pro league. --Bdoserror 22:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template Name

I think this template should probably specify "American Football" or some other appropriate distinguishing name to clarify that it's not what the rest of the world outside of North America and Australia calls "football". --Bdoserror 22:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The Gridiron football article states that it is a term refering to American Football. So why not just say American Football. Pollox87 05:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because Canadian Football and Arena Football are not "American Football" per se. However they are Gridiron Football. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

European (and Japanese) leagues

I think that this should be just "Non-North American leagues", in case others come up. --Bdoserror 22:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quality of this template

This template needs some serious clean-up before it should be pasted on every relevant page. For one, if it's about professional football, why are semi-pro and amateur leagues listed? "NFL Europe" isn't even spelled right. The header isn't centered. Nothing wrong with the concept, it just needs work. -- Mwalcoff 00:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it's particularly important, but if you go to the official website, it is "NFL Europa" now, not "NFL Europe". --Bdoserror 17:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be darned, you're right. -- Mwalcoff 02:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template name

This template needs to be moved for two reasons - A: Capitalisation and B: For 95% of the World "Professional football" means something else entirely. Jooler 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Template:Professional Football → '''Some other name''' — Globalisation Jooler 12:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Oppose. This is not the Main namespace. No particularly good reasons for the move have been made here. However, I could well support a move to delete this template, as being too huge and intrusive on the articles in which it is found, being largely useless as a navigation tool, and to the extent it does serve a purpose, being redundant with and better served by good use of categories and wikilinks. Gene Nygaard 14:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - move to Template:Professional american football as more descriptive and to avoid any confusion with soccer. BlueValour 18:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - There are two sports known widely as football and the one also known as soccer is more widely known as football in the world than American football, hence why FIFA is the Federation of international football associations (or the equivalent in French). The template Template:Professional Football should be re-titled to avoid confusion. --Chappy84 21:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The name is not in sync with Wikiproject football. sʟυмɢυм • т • c 21:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support Though cumbersome, the name really should be named "Professional American Football Leagues", to be in line with the current conventions already well established here at wikipedia. --Jayron 32 04:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - probably Professional American football leagues for correct caps. BlueValour 22:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support as football means soccer in an international context. DoubleBlue (Talk)
Support As the template creator I am in favor of Template:Professional American football leagues. I view this move as non controversial and will move the page immediately. Thanks for your concern. I continue to wonder about the redirects especially in the template space. Currently, the command {{Profootball}} redirects (transcludes?) to the template. The move procedure will also leave {{Professional Football}} as a redirect (transclude?) to the template. Is it necessary to change the transclusion commands on each page? TonyTheTiger 16:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the template includes non-professional American Football Leagues - mainly those that are non-North American. Principally, and backed up by the quote I put on the [British American Football League] talk page, the BAFL is an amatuer league and the BCAFL is a collegiate league. The tamplate needs to be renamed to capture all adult kitted Football Leagues worldwide, or slimmed to target ONLY professional leagues (NFL, CFL, NFLEuropa, AFL, etc). I suggest the latter, and a new template captures global semi-professional and amatuer leagues. Londonblitz 17:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think they forgot to close this RM. The template was moved to Gridiron Football per this discussion a long time ago. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related page moves. BlueValour 18:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remove CFL from the template

The consensus at Wikipedia is that the CFL is not a minor league, it is the highest professional league for the play of Canadian Football, which is considered as a seperate, though similar, code of Football from American Football. For an analogy, see the way that Rugby Union and Rugby League are treated. Any references to the CFL or other canadian football leagues should be removed from a template dealing with American Football. --Jayron 32 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see that User:TonyTheTiger has re-added the CFL to the template under it's own heading. I think we need to clarify what this template is trying to represent and see if it then makes sense for the CFL to appear.--Bdoserror 19:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The CFL link should be removed and the user should be directed to take the issue up at the talk page. I am no good at technical stuff like template mark-up, but if someone could please remove it, and leave both an edit summary and a comment on Tony's talk page about this, we may be able to reach consensus on how to handle this. I personally would not mind to see the template titled "Professional football in North America" with seperate categories and links for Canadian, American, Arena, and Association (soccer) leagues at the major, minor, and semi-professional levels. --Jayron 32 21:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the CFL to Other leagues. Due to its importance to professional football job seekers as one of the top two alternatives to the NFL, I felt it should be noted on the template because people using this resource to look up pro football leagues should be able to easily find it. TonyTheTiger 16:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reason I've moved the Arena Football League to that category. Both the CFL and AFL have similar circumstances in that they act is an occasional feeder to the NFL but also that they both play by nominally different rules then the NFL and are both major leagues. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the arena move. All indoor and arena leagues belong together. TonyTheTiger 23:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then they should be under a different category then "Minor Leagues" as the AFL isn't a minor league. The AF2 is, but it's a minor league of the AFL which also owns it. I'd point everyone to the "Connections to the NFL" section of the Indoor football article. The NFL does not consider the AFL to be a minor league and has dropped any remaining official option to ties to the AFL as of several years ago. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the CFL is another example that gives Wikipedia a bad name. When people see "American football", they think of AMERICAN football, not CANADIAN football. Either leave it out, or rename both the template and its header to "North American football". Zzyzx11 (Talk) 02:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arena v. Indoor

What's the distinction between Indoor football and Arena? Is it just the name or is there more to it? --Bdoserror 23:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's been fixed. --Bdoserror 23:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arena is a version of Indoor Football. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Leagues

This template should be re-organized and updated to bring it in line with the information in the List of leagues of American football (or vice-versa). --Bdoserror 23:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Like the new changes. Some suggestions though

Good things done recently:

Like the categorization of the NFL, CFL, and AFL(Arena) as major leagues... Seems a reasonable categorization. Each is the highest level of its particular code.
Like the rest of the categories (minor, semi-pro, rest of the world)

Changes still needed (I lack the template coding skills to do it. Can someone else handle this?):

The differences between Arena and other Indoor leagues is largely moot. These leagues all share more in common than they have differences. There are a few minor rule differences league-to-league, but not enough to justify seperate headings. Combine these as one heading: Arena/Indoor.
The British Collegiate American Football League seems to be more on par with the NCAA and not any professional level league, so it should be removed from this template.
Women's pro leagues should be added as a seperate header. See List of leagues of American football for more info.
The World Football League should be added to defunct leagues. The list I cite above also lists several other defunct leagues, though of these, only the WFL, USFL, AFL, and AAFC really lay claim to trying to be a major league...
We seem to have a white-space problem. Maybe some formating changes can help this. Maybe its just something we have to live with.

Hope to see this get better still. We're almost there. --Jayron 32 06:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

DIG IT!

Love the recent changes. The template looks perfect. I especially like the name change, since it now draws a distinction between "soccer" or "rugby" or "aussie" football and gridiron based football. With the current listing it looks great. Any chance of adding the Women's Professional leagues? --Jayron 32 21:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arena is "Major"?

I understand that the AFL is the highest classification of indoor football, but let's not fool ourselves (or anyone else). It's essentially a purgatory for NFL wannabes. Are there more than, say, ten cases of players who turned down NFL contracts to play in the AFL? Or for that matter, is there a single case? Its most famous player is Kurt Warner, and it wasn't for his accomplishments in the AFL. --Son of Somebody 04:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for the snarky edit comment, but I still believe the objection is valid.--Son of Somebody 19:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Same arguement can be made for the CFL. But it doesn't change the fact they are both the major leagues in their respective versions of the game. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Professional?

I don't think this template is correctly named. Most of the leagues are not professional. This was raised at Talk:British American Football League. I assume the template is designed to exclude college football yet it includes British Collegiate American Football League. I wonder whether the scope of this template is too broad and it should be slimmed down significantly.

Separately, NFL Europa should surely be considered on a par with Arena Football League and Canadian Football League. MLA 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the first point. People have been adding leagues that may be out of the scope of the template, like the British American Football League. If you see one that isn't a pro league then please by all means remove it from the template. As for NFL Europa, it is a designated feeder league to the NFL and is not the highest level of American football. The AFL and CFL however are not feeder leagues to the NFL and are the highest level in their particular branch of gridiron football, and in the CFL's case developed seperately. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the "semi-pro" leagues should be split up from the true "professional" minor leagues, mostly the indoor leagues that at least pay $200-300 per game. Also, if we are going down this road, do we want to include the 3-4 womens football leagues (despite them being barely semi-pro). Dletter 14:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]