Talk:Eastern Nazarene College

Infobox University

I added a date under the founded category in the university infobox. I wasn't sure of the date myself. According to educationUSA, the founding date is 1900 and the college moved to Quincy in 1919. According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica Online, the founding date is 1918. Since I know that ENC recently celebrated it's centennial anniversary, I find educationUSA's date to be more credible. However, whoever next gets their hands on a copy of Dr. Cameron's ENC history books should confirm this date. JephSullivan 19:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed :-) -- Alain E. Poutre

Citing sources

71.254.10.35 recently changed

• All members of the ENC community agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines. As part of this expectation, all students are required to sign a lifestyle covenant.

to

• All members of the ENC community are required to agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines. As part of this expectation, all students sign a "lifestyle covenant," the expectations of which have not been approved by the student body in recent memory.

and

• Drinking is not permitted, as well as the use of tobacco products, Premarital sex or cursing. There are neither fraternities nor sororities associated with the college.

to

• Drinking is not permitted, as well as the use of tobacco products, premarital sex or cursing. Though these are the official rules, it is widely known among the student body that all of the above occur both on and off campus. There are neither fraternities nor sororities associated with the college.

Young people being what they are, I have little doubt that both revisions are correct. And, according to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, when more than one body of opinion is widespread, all must be fairly represented. In other words, this article should not be restricted to Eastern Nazarene College's official point of view.

Nevertheless, WIkipedia has another core policy, verifiability, which says "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

This means in this case that it is important to cite a published source to the effect that the student body, though required to sign the lifestyle covenant, has not in fact approved it, and also that " it is widely known among the student body that" [premarital sex, etc.] "occur both on and off campus."

If no published source is available, than, however true these statements may be, they cannot appear in the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

P. S. For the record, my only connection with Eastern Nazarene College is a recent trip there in order to see the Gravity Monument, because I was curious to see one of them. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

71. etc says: If published data is the standard than the neutrality and factuality of the original article is called into question.

Published data is indeed the standard.

To state that a certain set of behaviors is not permitted implies very strongly that it does not occur, while there is no published data to support that contention either, so how about: "Drinking, the use of tobacco products, premarital sex and cursing are all violations of the rules of the institution; however published data do not exist that would indicate the levels at which these behaviors occur." Kinda wordy, but I feel it's important to point out that what is not permitted doesn't necessarily not happen. As to the lifestyle covenant, now that I think about it, it probably is a controversial issue that shouldn't be gone into here so let's leave it at: "All members of the ENC community are required by the administration to agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines and to sign a "lifestyle covenant" to that effect." I know of no published research which would support my alterations, but they are accurate.. When published, official, "truth" contradicts direct truth it becomes all the more important to point out the realities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.254.10.35 (talk • contribs)

I agree with you about the wording. I'm assuming that the existence of the "lifestyle covenant" is easily verified from published College material and probably on its website, although I haven't looked. The wording of the article needs to make it clear that students are required to sign such a covenant (or verbally express agreement or implicitly agree to it by registering or whatever it is they do). The wording can be carefully restricted so as to say or imply no more than that. It should not be worded in a way that implies that the covenant is closely adhered to in practice.

I'm saying that a source is needed for the assertion that students frequently depart from it.

Does Eastern Nazarene have a student newspaper? Does it ever refer, even elliptically, to truths which might be different from those college officials wish to publicize? Have Eastern Nazarene students ever gotten into the local papers for bad behavior such as e.g. the Scarsdale High School "homecoming bacchanal"?

My first post on Wikipedia, but I am an ENC Alum, and would like to improve this page. The campus newspaper is the "Campus Camera," with recent issues available at ENC Campus Camera --JA 19:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As for Wikipedia policy, the verifiability policy, linked under every page, is core... and quite interesting. Note in particular the explanation of "verifiability, not truth." Dpbsmith (talk) 09:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

P. S. I'm no theologian, but I expect there might be a belief on the part of the officials that it is somehow beneficial for students to express agreement to such a covenant, even knowing that many of them will fail to keep it. It's possible that they may have said such a thing in a published source. Who knows? One very crass speculation is that maybe having students agree to such a covenant makes it easier to expel the ones who misbehave egregiously and have the misfortune to be caught. Do those books by Professor James Cameron say anything about the covenant? Do they describethe background and debate that lead to the adoption of the policy? Maybe there's other published material tucked away in the ENC library somewhere. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, requiring students to sign a lifestyle covenent (and many students subsequently ignoring that covenant) is nothing unique to ENC. My own alma mater of Trevecca Nazarene University had one as well, and I'm pretty sure that all of the other Nazarene colleges require one too. It's pretty normal for Christian colleges to have relatively strict rules and guidelines, although they may not necessarily call them "lifestyle covenants" (for an extreme example, see Bob Jones University). Violations of the rules usually aren't notable enough to get published anywhere except in extraordinary circumstances. --Cswrye 15:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Announced move to Pennsylvania in 1977?

Eastern Nazarene College Leaving Massachusetts for Pennsylvania
New York Times March 20, 1977, p. 5:

Quincy, Mass., March 19 (AP): Eastern Nazarene College plans to mark its 60th year here by moving to Pennsylvania.

College officials said Thursday that the school had picked out a 125-acre parcel in Newtown Square, Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, and probably shift to the new site after the 1977-78 school year.

....The school, with an enrollment of 800, has occupied a 15-acre campus just south of Boston since 1918.

---

So, anyone know what happened? Presumably the move did not occur.... Dpbsmith (talk) 23:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Lifestyle covenent "expectations not approved..."

I edited

• All members of the ENC community are required to agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines. As part of this expectation, all students sign a "lifestyle covenant," the expectations of which have not been approved by the student body in recent memory.

to read simply

• l members of the ENC community are required to agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines. As part of this expectation, all students sign a "lifestyle covenant."

No citation has been provided regarding to the degree to which the student body "approves" the "expectations" of the lifestyle covenant. Doubtless there is a wide range of student attitudes. My assumption is that nobody attends Eastern Nazarene in the belief that it is a party school and that it is likely that many students sign it in perfect sincerity.

If there is a citable source, e.g. editorials or letters in the student newspaper that suggests that "the student body" as a whole rejects the covenant and signs it cynically or hypocritically, the source should be quoted. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that the following two quotes be removed from the Student Life section.

• All members of the ENC community are required to agree to uphold a set of lifestyle guidelines. As part of this expectation, all students sign a "lifestyle covenant."
• Drinking is not permitted, as well as the use of tobacco products, premarital sex or cursing. There are neither fraternities nor sororities associated with the college.

These two topics are addressed thoroughly and with citation in the Lifestyle Covenant section. Their wording seems to be a source of contention, so since they are redundant, I reccomend their removal. Any objections?JephSullivan 16:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

To follow up, let me begin by announcing that I am an alumnus of Eastern Nazarene College. Doubtless, there is breaking of the covenant on ENC campus -- I've done it, and most humans are prone to rule-breaking. It is an enforced covenant (and a covenant is an agreement), however, and as an admissions officer at the school I've had non-Christian students express a desire to attend this college based on those guidelines. A representative from Dartmouth College once expressed his amazement to me once that ENC not only "forced" (his wording) its religious ideals on the students, but that students "limited" (his again) their intellectual pursuits by being Christian. I told him that the former head of the Human Genome Project, Francis S. Collins, would likely disagree with the latter, and that it would be ridiculous for students to pay almost $28,000 a year to be "forced" to do anything. The school's Christian lifestyle is widely advertised by admissions officers and alumni, and tranferring out is always an option. Students transfer in from state universities to attend a Christian college with lifestyle guidelines, just as others transfer out to escape those same guidelines. If one does not wish to abide by those guidelines, one is welcome to enroll elsewhere. The wonders of a private university and free-will! Sorry this was so long, I feel as if I "preach to the choir," as they say... -- Alain E. Poutre

COI Tag

I just added the {{coi2}} tag to this page, since this articles main contributor Aepoutre admitted here that he is paid employee of the college (1). While I doubt any harm has been done to this article, I added the template as a matter of procedure. I would, however, like someone to look at the page to make sure it is written from a neutral POV. Black Harry (Highlights|Contribs) 17:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I will remove the the {{coi2}} tag from this page soon if no one disagrees, as most of the information is cited and comes from "official" documents, there does not seem to be any information that is not independently verifiable. That being said, I am a student of the school and I see no conflicts between my observations regarding the school and the current state of the article. However it would be nice to include more information on notable alumni and current programs. Joseph J. Cox 12:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Policies at ENC

I have removed "in the presence" of statement about alcohol, the school has previously penalized students for being in the presence of alcohol (but I would agree that those have always been "iffy" situations themselves), and as I currently understand it still is the current policy: see [[1]] Principles and Policies, Section 3.2. Although, I really think this information hasn't been updated to the current set of disciplinary standards. (Note to User:Aepoutre: Maybe you could talk to someone about getting this information updated.) Joseph J. Cox 01:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)