Wikipedia talk:Deletion guidelines for administrators

In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion.

This guideline is bad. It contradicts the spirit of consensus and can lead to some very very bad decisions. You cant have both the dictatorship of the majority and consensus because then the majority will always win out. Not to mention that substantial majority is awfully subjective. BL 15:43, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I had just noticed that myself. It gives two contradicting recommendations. First, it says to only delete where there is consensus, but then it says you can delete when there is merely a substantial majority. -BuddhaInside

Going with Buddha's definition of consensus is ridiculous. You can't keep a page because one person wants it kept. Deleting when the majority (75 per cent has been proposed in the past) is fine. Otherwise you get one person who is severly anti-deletionist who simply objects to anything being deleted. That is not workable. Angela 16:13, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Angela, if you want to delete articles with a 75% majority, just say so. But don't start claiming that a 75% majority is somehow consensus, when 25% have not consented. -BuddhaInside

Ok, I want to delete articles with a 75 per cent majority. I don't claim such a percentage is consensus, but I don't think one dissenter prevents the decision being viewed as consensus either. Angela 16:29, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No it is not fine. Majority has never been a reason for deletion before and I don't think it is now either. MyRedDice added that statement Sep 20, 2003 and it cannot be considered policy. IF the deletion policy should be changed, it is not the guidelines that should be changed that if I understand correctly is a more straightforward description of the policies, but the policies themselves. See Wikipedia:Deletion policy. And yes, in the classic definition of consensus, one dissenter prevents the decision from being viewed as consensus. The point of VfD is not to delete pages but to create consensuses. BL 16:31, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But those objecting just for sake of it or to prove a point will never consent. Hence, a policy which demands consensus is unworkable. Angela 16:36, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Then neither demand consensus, nor claim to have it when it does not exist. Having a policy of deleting anything which achieved a 75% vote against would at least be an honest policy, even if whether it is the right policy is debatable.-BuddhaInside

That is what the current policy says: "You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion." That is being honest. Trying to remove this statement from the page is wrong because we do not (by your definition) require consensus. Angela 16:44, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Consensus requires people to be rational and reasonable. That people actually are, is the reason that WP is such a success that it is. When or if someone objects just to prove a point isn't it possible that it is a valid point that the majority hasn't gotten? Examples where people actually are totally unreasonable and are objecting just for sake are few and far between. Those few examples are not a reason to change something that has worked very good before. It's akin to the idea that only registered users should be able to edit WP pages because there is a few vandals out there.

Your constant reverting is quite childish. You are reverting to a new position that wasn't there before. And you might remember me from such edits as removing "wikipedia is not a slang or idiom guide" in which you suggested that I'd call a vote to get that rule changed. I suggest you do the same. BL 16:52, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't there before what? It was certainly there before you started this edit war today. Angela

It must have been somewhere before because this is what people do. Angela

Angela, that is circular logic. It wasn't there before Martin put it there three days ago. Does that mean that Martin started an edit war? -BuddhaInside

Well his edit is what triggered it but clearly he is not involved in the edit war as he has not edited it since. Angela

Angela, if you are only concerned with the second part of the statement then you should remove the first part that says In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. - what you are saying is consensus doesn't matter as long as you have a substantial majority. Since consensus doesn't matter, why even mention it. With regards to the definition of consensus, while I grant that other definitions exist, I believe that every dictionary that you and I consulted gave unanimity as the primary meaning. You also wrote (revert - this is how it has always been done - you can't just delete it now) - I assure you, this is not how it has always been done. Wikipedians were far more reluctant to delete anything in 2001 then they are now. -BuddhaInside

As you missing the in general part of that sentence? Whether anyone was reluctant to delete anything in 2001 is irrelevant - it doesn't mean they demanded absolute consensus before deleting it, so your statement proves nothing. Angela

And what do you think that "general" means? Check your dictionary and see if the primary meaning isn't defined as something like "in all cases" or "applicable to the whole". -BuddhaInside

It is used here to mean "usually". In other words - there are exceptions to the rule and consensus is not always going to be necessary before deletion can occur. Angela 17:13, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Then we are not in agreement as to what the word is supposed to mean. Go back to the definition of consensus and you will see many dictionaries use the phrase "general agreement" in the primary definition. Look up the word general, you will see that the primary definition means something that applies to the whole. In fact, Mirriam-Webster's says that "General Agreement" is synonymous with unanimous. So what you are saying above appears to be that despite the fact that the primary meaning of "general" is "in all cases", you want to read it here as "usually". Fine, if that is what you want then why don't you edit the article to begin Usually only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. Heck, I'll do it for you. -BuddhaInside

Perhaps it an British English thing but I use "in general" to mean "not always". Angela

Let's get practical. It is obvious that we cannot allow deletion only when there is unanimity. If nobody wanted the information there it wouldn't be there. The sentence above seems to describe two cases, and makes perfect sense if you think of it like that. Deletion should occur if either there is a consensus, or there are many votes and a substantial majority. So two votes for and one against is not a consensus, and although 66% is a pretty substantial majority there should be no deletion. On the other hand twelve for and two against is both many and a substantial majority, so it gets deleted.

Let's also remember we can't lay down hard and fast rules about this. If Wikipedia is not to dissolve into bureaucracy then we have to rely on the judgement of administrators. DJ Clayworth 17:28, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Angela

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How is stating that a consensus is not required an "impractical" statement? Angela 17:57, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have already explained to you why a writing that basically gives leeway to administrators to chose however they want to delete articles is dangerous. BL

Yes, but as David states above, admins do need to be able to make judgements about these things. Angela

Admins are mere Wikipedia contributors. I think it would be very unfair to them to burden them with that requirement. And unfair to the non-admins whos judgement does not count. BL

But they are also people who are trusted to make these decisions. Angela

I have also explained why such an ambigious writing as "many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority" is very impractical because it can be interpreted in so many different ways. BL

Well then that needs to be defined better. Perhaps adding the 75 per cent guideline? But it needs to be realised that in the case of a very small number of votes, such a percentage is less applicable. Angela

Details. What is more disturbing is that, more often than not, when a consensus is not reached is that someone is listed on Wikipedia:Problem users and someone mails the mailinglist. BL

I hardly think this is the general case. There would be a lot of problem users if everyone who disagreed on a deletion was listed. Angela

What YOU have NOT answered is WHERE, except for the edit MyRedDice did Sep 20, it states that "a substantial majority" is enough for an article to get removed. BL

When Martin added that statement, he was merely codifying what is already accepted procedure. Angela

Then it was a sneaky way to codify it. No offense to Martin who obviously tried to solve a perceived problem. I don't think it was the right solution and I don't believe it is accepted procedure.

Adding it to the policy page is about the least sneaky way you can do anything. Angela

Neither have you cared to explain how that guideline is compatible with consensus decision making. BL 18:28, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I haven't explained that because, as I stated above, the demand for consensus here is impractical. Angela 18:41, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How do you want consensus to be interpeted? BL 21:26, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As a majority but it's irrelevant when consensus is impractical. Angela

A lot of conversation while I was away. DJ Clayworth wrote Let's also remember we can't lay down hard and fast rules about this. Hard and fast rules are exactly what are needed here. There should never be an ambiguous vote where an administrator has to make a decision whether to delete or not. The purpose of holding votes is to have a process where the decision making is transparent, not a process were some administrator is trying to interpret the best solution. Regarding consensus, if the article simply dropped the first part of the phrasing all together at least it would be honest. -BuddhaInside

But there will be times where an admin needs to make a decision for themselves. That's why admins are (supposedly) trustworthy people who are allowed to do this. Regarding consensus - which article? The consensus one or this one? If you wish to talk about definitions of consensus, go to talk:consensus. You might want to add it to List of words having different meanings in British and American English as well. Angela 23:59, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You misread my statement about consensus. I was talking about the use of the word in *this* article. The language in question was In general, only delete pages where there is consensus for deletion. You may also choose to delete pages where many people have expressed an opinion and there is a substantial majority in favour of deletion. In other words - Hey admin, only delete articles when there is consensus, unless you really want to delete them, in which case a majority will be sufficient. Why even bother playing lipservice to consensus when what the statement really is asking for is a "substantial majority". As far as whether an admin should ever make a decision, no, there isn't. As the article says When in doubt, don't delete. -BuddhaInside