Wikipedia talk:Personal subpages to be deleted

Do pages listed here still have to follow the 7 day rule or can they be deleted immediately? Personally, I think that if a user wants their own pages deleted then there should be no issue with that. Angela 22:49, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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From Cyan's talk page

It's an honest mistake, but users (or admins for that matter) have no right to unilaterally request and receive the deletion of the history of -any- page. The proper procedure is to go through VfD. I've restored BuddhaInside's two pages. - Hephaestos 22:38, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

And you, Hephaestos, failed to follow policy by going through Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion prior to acting unilaterally. -BuddhaInside

In my opinion, Hephaestos acted correctly: he perceived an improper summary deletion and immediately moved to revert it. -- Cyan 23:26, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Shouldn't they go on Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted, not VfD. I assumed that it was ok to delete these immediately, although the policy doesn't seem clear on this. Angela 22:47, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Indeed. -BuddhaInside

It's my understanding that any page in any namespace needs consensus before deleting it with history. The technical procedures have changed so much lately that I'm not sure what's the right page in some cases. - Hephaestos 22:50, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Not to mention in this particular case, where the user is obviously very familiar with the system, and has quite possibly simply created a separate account to cause trouble. Such trolling activity should have a record. - Hephaestos 22:51, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Accounts for trolling have their user contributions as a permanent record. And if, for example, JoeM erases comments I want to preserve from on his talk page, I can always save them on my talk page. In this case, neither of the two people directly involved (i.e myself and BuddhaInside) wanted to keep the page history, so I felt it was reasonable to remove that record, and preserve the content here (that is, on my talk page). -- Cyan 23:03, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"Consensus" has always been that each user had final control over their user pages. As for trolling, you haven't refuted the logic above. -BuddhaInside

For the record, I was treating these pages as if they had been listed on Wikipedia:Personal subpages to be deleted. It was my understanding that, within reasonable limts, a user had the privilege of deciding the content of their own user page and talk page, the primary limitation being that the content was to be related to working on Wikipedia. -- Cyan 22:57, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That could well be, so I might be wrong. At any rate the policy will make itself clear sooner or later, and I think until that point it's better to have the pages available than not. I know I for one am not going to delete a user's talk page at his/her request every time someone simply posts a question in it. - Hephaestos 23:00, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

End of moved text from the talk page of Cyan

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None of the policies make it clear. If there are no objections, I am going to write on the policy page that this should count as one of the things allowable for immediate deletion. Sysop's user pages are deleted all the time without listing on VfD. I just deleted my own sandbox twice. I have also deleted my user page in the past, as has 172. If sysops can do this it is unfair that normal users can't. Angela 23:04, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I second this motion. -BuddhaInside

I would actually prefer that admins be prevented from deleting their own pages. A simple blanking should be plenty, except in unusual circumstances which can be covered in VfD (or whatever is the appropriate venue these days). - Hephaestos 23:20, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

why do think it would be better that no deletion of user pages is practiced ? Why not, but what are the arguments ? Anthère

Is there a difference between user pages and subpages? I was assuming that subpages are of the [[user:XYZ/subpage]] variety and do not mean anything else when I first saw this metapage. Do user talk (and user subtalk) pages belong to the user, or are they the place that other users can post comments, observations and record interchanges with that user (obviously the user can also post there)? It seems obvious to me that the user and talk pages belong to the wiki once posted, they may include material that belongs (is copyright) to the user, or limited to further distribution by the fair use and fair dealing provisions of various copyright laws, but it has been released under the GFDL upon posting (that is what it says below on the screen as I am typing this). Maybe I am wrong, but I think that once someone posts something on Wikipedia they run the risk of it remaining there (and in download data dumps) forever.

I think Hephaestos has a good point about not deleting anything that might later have some significance. The whole point of a wiki is that it creates a record of interactions between people. As Brian Vibber pointed out in a mailing list discussion [1] someday someone may want to write a thesis on one of us and our interactions on Wikipedia or on the phenomenon of Wikipedia vandalism or trolling. How will they be able to do that if user and talk pages are deleted? The user and talk pages are the real repository of the personality of this grand experiment as Brian called it on the mailing list. Alex756 02:06, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But if they're doing their grand experiment, they will surely want to look at what's been deleted too, so it will be just as interesting for them to see that User:whatever deleted his talk page following some event. Perhaps it's wrong for users to view their user pages as belonging to them, but I'm sure many do and unless that person is banned I think they should be allowed todecide (within reason) what to do with "their" pages. Angela 07:06, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think it common etiquette that user pages (included talk pages and subpages) be editable by their owner and deletable by their owner. Otherwise, there are no more their user' page. In case of a non sysop, the sysop deleting the page for him is mere technicality. And afaik, a sysop never asked permission to delete his own page, nor did anyone reverted their deletion. Should that happen to me, I would see that as a personal intrusion in my space and consider it rude.

Now, it also make sense to keep content for history sometimes. In case of vandals for example. If so, the sysop interested just has to make a copy of the page (or a move if he wants to preserve the history) to his own user space if he is want to preserve the info (or to wikipedia space if it is desired by the community), then delete the page per user request. Anthère

How can someone see what is deleted as Angela suggests above? One only know that something is deleted; there is no way to tell what content was deleted. One cannot know what has been removed; the page histories and all the links are gone too. The only thing that one will be able to state is that the record is lost; someone deleted it, they will not be able to do any kind of historical research on that person before the user and/or talk pages were deleted, except for their edit trail and comments they have posted on other undeleted talk pages (which could also be a partial record). While someone may copy the part they think is significant, what about they other parts? Maybe the other parts are significant to others for unknown reasons to the one who deletes that information? Is there any record of why it was deleted beyond the personal request? OK, delete user pages, that seems to be someone's personal space but talk pages? Isn't that where a lot of important things get hashed out here between contributors? That is what I am seeing on user talk pages on a regular basis.

I do agree with Anthèere, there is at least a way to save it somewhere else. Perhaps there should always be a policy of copying someone's user page and subpages before they are deleted, then if someone wants to save the material and were not aware of the deletion when it happened they can access the copy, or, alternatively, getting the permission of everyone who has ever posted on the talk page before it is deleted so that they can copy anything they may think is important to save for their own reasons at least — it still creates a gap in the record that may be needed by someone someday, but it seems that some believe that not maintaining such a record is a good idea. I still don't see why, the stuff on people's talk pages can be very significant to others who read it, later on, there is a lot to be gleaned about the complexities of interpersonal relations in such a cooperative endeavor that might shed light on the decision making process that goes on here and the collaborative process that helps Wikipedia to develop structure, form and content. Does this all really belong to the user whose talk page it is on? Alex756 08:19, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

They can see it is deleted by the fact that the "restore x deleted edits" link appears at the top. If they are researching Wikipedia, they ought to have access to this in the same way that current sysops do. That is one way to know something was deleted. The deletion log is another way.

Yes, talk pages are important, but the user still basically controls it. They usually get away with deleting what they see fit, and even completely rephrasing what people have said. I don't see how this is any different to deleting the page. Sysops can still access it through undeletion (which thanks to Brion's new link is extremely easy to do) and this should be accessible to those on the grand experiment in the same way. It is no harder to view it this way than going through the history if comments (as opposed to the whole page) have been deleted.

Why on earth do subpages need copying before deletion? Most of the time these are user sandboxes or temporary pages where people work on articles prior to their deletion. I see no benefit in keeping them or in forcing a 7-day wait on their deletion. Why would anyone want to object to me deleting my to-do list for example. If people are putting important things on other people's talk pages, it is up to them to make a copy. They can not expect other user's to keep it.

Finally, I can't see why you are using this researcher's argument. We aren't here to benefit the researchers. We are supposed to be writing an encyclopedia and should not be relying on the history of user_talk pages to do that.

Angela 14:08, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Being a researcher and someone who has sifted through many an old archive, I am sympathetic to some as of yet unborn scholar who will see Wikipedia as a revolutionary way of communicating, collaborating and even disagreeing.

From what you are saying Angela, when a page is deleted it is never really deleted anyway, just inaccessible to anyone with less than sysop rights. Actually stating that the pages should be copied was a bit "tongue in check" (I was essentially restating that I don't agree with deleting them obviously if the whole page is moved somewhere then it is not deleted, no? Another example of I didn't get the joke levity from Alex756).

I still think there is an argument to keeping the user talk pages transparent to non-sysops (i.e. the general public). If they are blanked there is still the page history (though that does make the links dormant), someone like me who has only been here a relatively short time has found it useful to read old user talk page histories after they have been summarized or changed; I've learnt a lot about how Wikipedia works there; not just from Meta pages. It shows me how people DO collaborate, how they sometimes disagree, how they sometimes get crazy and how they sometimes have a lot of emotional investment into Wikipedia and the subjects they are working on. That helps me as a contributor because it shows me different ways to collaborate and work with others, (and why edit wars are are stupid thing) something that is important to the development of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. My contention is that it does influence content (hey maybe I should be writing that thesis!). Having someone take that away from the public because they want to make a clean slate, well, my response would be to log in as a new user, and leave the old stuff available for the social scientists and tinkerers like me to dissect; regarding sandbox like subpages I see no issue at all in deleting them ASAP.

I guess since I am a sysop I shouldn't worry about the problems the masses may have in learning about the history of Wikipedia contributors; it will be a relatively obscure point for most. More members of the public will just have to become sysops so they can look through those deleted page histories as suggested (maybe there should be a rule about granting researchers sysop status if they need to access the archives in such a manner). Alex756 23:10, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Redirecting - the uncontroversial form of deletion!

Just a recommendation: when I want to get rid of a subpage of mine, I orphan it, and redirect it to my user page. Has some advantages: keeps the history freely available (nobody can accuse me of censorship), is easily revertable (nobody can accuse me of unilateralism), doesn't use secret sysop powers (nobody can accuse me of sysop abuse), doesn't break any links, etc. Perhaps we can avoid the whole controversy by just recommending that people follow that approach?

Warning: I'm speaking generally: have no idea what the specific fuss is about... Martin 22:42, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

But if someone wants to remove the history of "their own" pages then I still think that should be allowed. Angela 22:53, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps I have a lack of imagination, but I can't think of any good reason to do so. Especially now we have 100+ sysops, so the history will still be practically available, but in a different place. Even for folks who are leaving Wikipedia, I view the solution of user:Kat and user:Zoe as a better one. Martin 23:39, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

subpage

Could a sysop please add a quick definition of "subpage"?

Martin suggests

A personal subpage is a page of the form user:X/blah or user talk:X/blah. Pages of the form user:X and user talk:X are not subpages. If you desire to delete them, use votes for deletion, but note that such requests are only granted to departed Wikipedians, and then only rarely.

BuddhaInside suggests the alternative:

Some hold that a subpage is a page of the form user:X/blah or user talk:X/blah and that pages of the form user:X and user talk:X are not subpages, while others hold that the user:X and user talk:X pages are the root subpages. If you desire to delete them, either use votes for deletion or personal subpages to be deleted, but note that the sysops are not in agreement over deleting such pages, despite the fact that there are sysops who routinely use delete on their own root subpages.

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I have reworded this to avoid problems associated with real articles being moved to the user namespace and then deleted. For example, User:Daniel C. Boyer/Surrealist Movement in the United States was previously in the main namespace so should go through the normal channels of deletion rather than being listed here. It also stops people getting around the issue of having their user page deleted by moving it to a subpage. Angela 01:05, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The latter part of your statement is a desired feature of the subpage deletion process. -BuddhaInside

It may be desired but it is not allowed. User and talk pages stay until you leave, at which point they might be deleted if you ask the right people. Angela

BuddhaInside, let's play "make it up as we go along". If you can get two other established contributors to agree with you on this issue within two days, then the policy will not be changed; if not, then Angela's complete policy is posted and you agree not to revert. What do you say? (You too, Angela.) -- Cyan 01:45, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No, I do not consent to that process. How about we hold an election and seek a majority of 50% + 1, defining a quorum as 50 active wikipedia editors? -BuddhaInside