Talk:Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

Archives contents summary

• /Archive 1: original research complaints; unfounded theories (49k, July 2005 - February 2006)
• /Archive 2: speculated release date; plot speculation; questions to be answered by the book (51k, February – August 2006)
• /Archive 3: references; fake titles; more speculation; failed requested move (48k, June – November 2006)
• /Archive 4: real title; questions about "hallows"; trimming of speculation (68k, November 2006 – January 2007)
• /Archive 5: cited fan speculation; real release date; the meaning of "hallows" (52k, December 2006 – February 2007)
• /Archive 6: long debate on inclusion of speculation on the meaning of "hallows"(173k, Feb 2007)
• /Archive 7: Spoilers, film version, meaning of Hallows, hallows in literature (47k, Feb 2007)
• /Archive 8: continuation of above debate; minor article questions (49k, February – March 2007)
• /Archive 9: continuation of Hallows debate (150k, February – March 2007)
• /Archive 10: end of Hallows debate, release of the covers (52k, March – April 2007)
• /Archive 11: more talk of the covers, image questions, film, books after 7 (64k, March – May 2007)
• /Archive 12: leaks, alternate titles, sneak peaks, Harry's eyes (68k, April – May 2007)
• /Archive 13: "Deathly Hallows" section, more leaks, edit war over DH references (61k, April – May 2007)
• /Archive 14: spoiler policy, MuggleNet spam, speculation (67k, May – June 2007)
• /Archive 15: Pre-release spoilers, Advanced copies, Series Background, Claimed Scans of Text posted at online sites (53k, June 2007)
• /Archive 16: More pre-release discussions, spoiler and post-release strategy, article protection, scans of text posted at external sites, plot elements (64k, June - mid July 2007)
• /Archive 17: Pre-release leaks, spoiler strategies, reliable sourcing, "straw poll" on need for full protection, matters leading up to release (61k, 17 July 2007)
• /Archive 18: Source of leak materials, photographed copies, verifiability and reliable source discussions, spoiler handling, Not Censored, Page Protection protests (61k, 18 July 2007)
• /Archive 19: Early releases, authentic plot summaries, press reviews, Rowling response, spoiler management, updated plot elements (63k, 19 July 2007)
• /Archive 20: Reviews, Plot summary debates, Holding off until release, Worldwide release times, Spoilers handling (66k, 20 July 2007)
• /Archive 21: Pre- and Post-release plot summary discussions - verifiability vs censorship - time zones and midnight release strategy - spoiler / tagging debate (61k, 21 July 2007)
• /Archive 22: Plot summary evolution, "Hide box", spoiler complaints, a Thank You, article protection, List of characters killed, Trivia section (60k, 22 July 2007)
• /Archive 23: Plot Summary discussions, Epilogue, UK vs US editions, Sales figures, Various Lists, Chapter specific discussions (63k, 23 July 2007)
• /Archive 24: Plot summary refinements, character details, deaths, defective copies, mistakes, Gryffindor's sword, who killed who. (60k, 24-25 July 2007)
• /Archive 25: Dumbledore discussion, tagging spoilers, Deaths list section, character marriages, templates, epilogue, summaries, archives. (61k, 25-26 July 2007)
• /Archive 26: Pottermania, first weekend sales, structure, AfDs, spellings, spoilers, deaths, etc. (62k, 26-31 July 2007)

Snog vs Kiss

I wont revert again, but I think we should keep it as snog. It's the word specifically used in the book. It may be slang, but I would still say to keep it, since it's what she used, as directly opposed to kissing. i ^said 05:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Slang should only be used in direct quotes. And even though this could be a direct quote, the rest of the plot summary isn't (and shouldn't be). So the word "kiss" is better. Incidentally, if this is about Victoire, it isn't important enough to be in the summary to begin with, but as per the section above this one, it'll be futile trying to remove it now. Lilac Soul ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 06:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with LilacSoul. Snog is slang, and should be used only if you are quoting the book directly. Marc Shepherd 11:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well. Saying kiss conveys the necessary information without the section looking unencyclopedic. AndrewJDTALK -- 11:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, kissing is broader than snogging which implies a certain sort of kiss... David Underdown 11:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with David Underdown. Snogging is redirected as "French Kiss" and therefore is different from the actual kiss article. So snogging and kissing are therefore considered two different things.  Bella Swan_(Talk!) 12:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Lilac Soul is right. Really... on a scale of one to ten, how relevant to the overall plot of the book is nature of this kiss? The summary is supposed to be just a brief overview of the main plot thread. Either remove this really very unimportant trivia altogether, or just call it a kiss and be done. chgallen

I disagree. "Snog" seems to have a completely different connotation, if not denotation, than the word "kiss." Although slang, I see that snog seems to refer to a more juvenile "make out" type of kiss, and even such minor details can change the character development as well as more about the story. -Mitchell > 1:22 EST 3 August 2007

To put his more into perspective- would you say "I kissed the newborn baby" or "I snogged the newborn baby". There is obviously a difference shown in the words. When "snogging" is used in the book it is used the show a very romantic connection, not just some casual brush on the lips. One example the show how relevent it is to the text is when, in the end of the book, Victorie is snogging James and the children are shocked that this would happen; if it was just a "kiss", would the characters have had such a reaction?  Bella Swan_(Talk!) 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The point's already been made: if it's not so relevant, it doesn't need to be explained so accurately. What you say above is still not particularly relevant relevant to the plot as a whole, only to itself. Ville V. Kokko 10:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

According to the manual of style, specifically National varieties of English, specifies that we use the national variety of the first major editor, The first editor, User:205.229.201.117 diff, is from the United States. Therefore, we must use the American term for the act: tonsil hockey. Vodak 01:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That is true, when there are not strong ties to a specific country, such as an article about the color orange. It was originally written by someone using British spelling colour, and since it does not have strong ties to any version of English, we follow that. However, this does have the requisite ties, it's written by a British author, set in England, and originally published in England. Thus, we use British English. The question here is whether or not we use "snog" or "kiss". I am not saying we use snog because its British, I'm saying we should because of the context. Like people have said, snogging and kissing do not neccesarily mean the same thing; snogging is more like french kissing. Like Bella said, you would kiss a baby, but not snog them. i ^said 05:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You're still missing the real issue. It has nothing to do with context or nationality. Using the term "snog", unless you're using it with a direct quote (which would be superfluous in such a short subsection), would be in opposition to wikipedia's guidelines because it is slang. Again, in Wikipedia articles, slang (American, British or otherwise) is to be avoided except in direct quotes. - Ugliness Man 08:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

People are missing the point that this is a moot discussion because this is so unimportant that it shouldn't be in the plot summary to begin with. I'm not deleting it myself, though, as it will just get reintroduced. I will eventually once this article becomes more stable, though. Lilac Soul ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 18:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

my two cents: When I read "snogging" I thought "making out" and not just "kissing". I think snogging is more hot and heavy than kissing. Bytebear 04:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

When directly quoting Rowling (from books, interviews, etc.) then snog or snogging should be used exactly as she did in-universe. When commenting about the activities of the characters out-of-universe, if snog or snogging is used, then it should be in quotation marks, followed by short explanation, with a wiki-link cross reference to the applicable page, eg: "...while Harry and Ginny were busy "snogging" (a kind of romantic kissing), Hermione and Ron were discussing ...". This should clear up the confusion regarding the meaning of the slang term, and yet allow it to be used as a quasi-in-universe expression. --T-dot ( ^Talk/contribs ) 19:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Difference in Editions

What the differences in the adult and children's editions?

From what I've read, the only difference is the cover art for each book (apparently for maketing purposes). The text is the same. PNW Raven 14:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I work in a book store and I get asked this nearly every day. PNW Raven is correct, the only difference is the dust jacket, and the fact that with the children's edition the cover under the dust jacket is identical to the dust jacket, whereas with the adult edition the cover is plain black with the title in gold print on the spine. If you're at a book store and see the two together, just turn to any random page in both editions and you'll see their exactly the same. The only difference in actual text between editions that has ever occured in the series is differences between the UK/international edition and the US edition. - Ugliness Man 17:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"Unnecessary detail" vs. "Necessary detail"

Can the active editors at least agree among ourselves a guideline for “unnecessary detail” versus “necessary detail”?

Here’s my suggestion: Unless the detail is important to actually move the plot of this book forward, or unless it is an important link to a prior book, it doesn’t belong in this plot summary.

At this point, at least the following italicized details do not appear to meet this guideline:

• George Weasley's ear is severed by a glancing spell
• Emotionally affected from carrying the locket, Ron fears for his family's safety and is frustrated that Harry has no real plan for finding either the sword or the Horcruxes, and he decides to leave.
• Peter Pettigrew enters to investigate the noise
• The trio plot with Griphook to infiltrate Gringotts
• and the trio barely escape with the Cup
• to secretly enter Hogwarts from behind picture of of his dead sister Ariana

All of these are nice “flavor” points, but none of them is necessary. Can we active editors agree that they can be removed (as they repeatedly have been)? GiveItSomeThought 22:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

100% agree with you. chgallen 22:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hearing no objection .... please do not replace these unnecessary details. GiveItSomeThought 05:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I missed this conversation until just now... I do have one minor objection, I think the loss of George's ear should be in the article somewhere. It's not necessary to the plot, but it's one of the more "intense" or "extreme" occurances. It's a major injury caused by a spell which may have killed him if it had hit him in a slightly different spot, and while it's not as severe as the deaths, it does seem to be worth mentioning as one of the "casualties" of the flight from the Dursleys. If "essential to the plot" is the main criteria, then Colin Creevey's death could very well be left out. A lot of other, more important people die, so he doesn't need to be mentioned. Some "unnecessary" things do belong in the plot summary to give a feel for the severity or intensity of what's happening. But, as I said, the objection is minor, and I won't bother to put it back in, I just wanted to state my case. - Ugliness Man 06:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

IMHO, the deaths of Hedwig and Mad-Eye Moody definitely convey the "itensity" of the ambush and move the plot forward. George's ear, I agree, is a nice "flavor" point to convey mood, but ... if we all put in our favorite flavor points, this summary would be twice as long! GiveItSomeThought 07:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

List of deaths?

Is there an article on the deaths (and/or injuries) of characters in the Harry Potter story/stories. I was losing track in this last book, and wondered if there was an article on the topic? Bytebear 04:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

hey, there was an article showing who kill who in the final Battle of Hogwarts, and a list of who killed what horcrux and how, but they were both removed. why were they taken down?

Cover Art

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0545010225/ref=dp_image_0/104-0320056-8303928?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books In that cover art, where are they supposed to be? Not saying this needs to be referenced on the page, but it should be clarified. The other edition clearly shows Gringotts, but this one is puzzling. 70.54.139.251 04:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

My guess is in the great hall at Hogwards just at sunrise. Bytebear 05:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The cover in question is the American Scholastic cover. The Gringott's cover is the UK/internatinal children's edition cover. I, too, was intrigued by the US cover when it was released some weeks before the book. My theory was that it was some sort of stadium, and the shadows in teh background were Death Eaters and/or dementors, and that Harry and Voldemort were both reaching for something. However, after reading the final chapters I'm inclined tos ay that Bytebear is right, since that's the only scene in the book that this image could possibly be portraying. It is sunrise, some of the shadows in the background may be Death Eaters, but everyone else involved in the battle is there as well. They're in the Great Hall, and the ceiling is enchanted, as always, to resemble the sky, which is why I thought they were in an open area. H and V are not reaching for something simultaneously, Voldy has just been blasted backwards by his backfired curse, and the wand has just flung from his hand, which is what Harry is reaching for.

Incidentally, I'm not entirely surprised by how wrong my theory was, I was sure that the strange little creature on the UK/international children's cover was either Dobby or Kreacher, but it turned out to be a Goblin rather than a house-elf. You have to give the cover artists credit for keeping us guessing. - Ugliness Man 05:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

PoA film

Rowling has long since said that the PoA filmmakers had put in stuff that was foreshadowing the seventh book. Now I KNOW that this isn't the place for a general discussion, but is it relevant to mention it in this article? Furthermore, what was it? I can't think for the life of me what it may have been. ~~ THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 09:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless WB or JKR publicly says something, not worthy of mention in this article. Worthy of hours and hours of debate on some fan sites (I'm sure you are aware).Bryanc 00:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Headmaster

This article says prof. McGonagall wasn't appointed a new Headmistress. How do we know? In an interview, when asked who the Headmaster 19 years after DH is, JK Rowling says it's not McGonagall anymore. That sounds like she was Headmistress for some time. McGonagall article says the same thing. Did JKR says something more about this? 22: 13, 5. August 2007 erunanne

Where is the interview you're talking about? The source for the comment on McGonagall does not have a direct quote, but says: "...the school for witchcraft and wizardry is led by an entirely new headmaster (“McGonagall was really getting on a bit”)..." which does not imply that she held the position of headmaster for any period of time. --70.55.39.170 06:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

From chapter 29 of the sixth book:

Harry stood up, murmured "See you in a bit" to Ron, Hermione, and Ginny, and followed Professor McGonagall back down the ward. The corridors outside were deserted and the only sound was the distant phoenix song. It was several minutes before Harry became aware that they were not heading for Professor McGonagall's office, but for Dumbledore's, and another few seconds before he realized that of course, she had been deputy headmistress, apparently she was now headmistress, so the room behind the gargoyle was now hers.

So, yes, she was headmistress, even though it was brief. The way that JK phrased her response suggests that she took the position again after Voldemort was out of the picture and everything (including the Ministry) was back to the way it should be... and that makes all the sense in the world, but would be OR. - Ugliness Man 08:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the quote you mentioned. It seems logical that when using (“McGonagall was really getting on a bit”)..." as a part of her response to who the Headmaster is, she is referring to the previous Headmaster/ Headmistress who resigned, died, whatever. If McGonagall did not become Headmistress after Snape, she would probably mention some other person. I agree we can't be 100% sure about this, though. 20:13, 6 August 2007 Erunanne

the taboo

Let it be clear for the record what the spell "The Taboo" does.

When the name is spoken it breaks any protective magics the speaker may have cast around them. According to the book, that's all it does.

It does NOT summon Death Eaters. It does NOT summon Snatchers.

I have to keep re-editing this portion of the summary because this is misrepresented.

Don't change such details unless you understand the mechanics of the story.

Bryanc 23:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't summon anyone, but it causes a "disturbance", that might be the correct way to mention it. i ^said 23:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

"personally invested tone"

Here's how I understand the guidelines about not having "a personally invested tone."

A personally invested tone is where the words convey an emotional reaction by the writer to the events in the book. The following, to me are "personally invested tone:"

• "Harry manages to escape" should be the more neutral "Harry escapes"
• "Unfortunately Dobby has been fatally stabbed" should be the more neutral "However, Dobby has been fatally stabbed."

Reactions please. GiveItSomeThought 17:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Absence from the book

Various of the minor and passing characters in the book are advised to flee abroad, and it is clear from the previous books that there are various regions/states (in the sense that we would use them).

Why was no action from outside the UK taken against Lord Voldemort? Jackiespeel 18:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)